A Song of Ice and Fire (no HBO GOT spoilers post-season 5, please)

[TasteTheRainbow 8,726]

I just finished the Dunk and Egg novella's yesterday. They were incredibly good. It made me think some new things about the Night's King. And about Targaryens in general. I think I'm even more firmly on Varys' side now.

[TasteTheRainbow 8,726]

That World of Ice and Fire is an incredible piece of work. It has dozens of stories that are worthy of a set of novels on their own. Ever since the season 6 buzz kicked up we've been referencing it almost daily. It had some sad things to say about Dunk and Egg though

Even the art in that book is worth the purchase price.

Edited May 6, 2016 by TasteTheRainbow

[heychadwick 11,357]

World of Ice and Fire is really good.  I enjoyed it a lot.

[TasteTheRainbow 8,726]

That letter from Dorne to Aegon the Conqueror

[heychadwick 11,357]

That letter from Dorne to Aegon the Conqueror

 

You are going to make me go back and read it.  

 

My cube mate has binge watched the tv show lately.  I had to try to explain the whole premise to him so he has a better understanding of the tv show.  I explained the whole rebellion and Lhyassa Stark / Rhaegar story line.  

[FTS Gecko 24,135]

So, geographically speaking, people from those regions (of both our world and Middle-earth) would have darker skin - but Tolkien did not have to choose to cast them as the bad guys (or as allies of evil). The argument that Tolkien grew up in South Africa and therefore was participating in apartheid with his work is an overstatement, I think, but I think he carried those assumptions with him.

 

Saruman.  Grima.  Denethor.  Isildur...

 

Delving further back...

 

Feanor (and a large percentage of his sons).  Eol.  Maeglin.  Saeros.  Hurin.  Turin.  Daeron... admittedly, most of these fall under the once-noble, were-corrupted theme, but when it came to villains, J R R Tolkien was definitely an equal opportunities employer.

 

While we're at it:

 

[WarriorPoet 352]

 

So, geographically speaking, people from those regions (of both our world and Middle-earth) would have darker skin - but Tolkien did not have to choose to cast them as the bad guys (or as allies of evil). The argument that Tolkien grew up in South Africa and therefore was participating in apartheid with his work is an overstatement, I think, but I think he carried those assumptions with him.

 

Saruman.  Grima.  Denethor.  Isildur...

 

Delving further back...

 

Feanor (and a large percentage of his sons).  Eol.  Maeglin.  Saeros.  Hurin.  Turin.  Daeron... admittedly, most of these fall under the once-noble, were-corrupted theme, but when it came to villains, J R R Tolkien was definitely an equal opportunities employer.

Fair enough. However, those are individuals (some of whom are leaders), versus an entire species of creatures being described in appearance similarly to other human races, and these species are the main baddies.

And, as you point out, your examples are all good guys who were corrupted, unlike the Orcs who are inherently evil, made in mockery of Elves - hmm, which could be read as an explicit value statement, come to think of it.

 

I saw that video last week - thanks for posting; it was hilarious!

[Dagonet 7,246]

The argument that Tolkien grew up in South Africa and therefore was participating in apartheid with his work is an overstatement, 

 

 

Especially since Apartheid was a post WW2 institution and Tolkien moved to the UK late in the 19th century, he grew up in England, not South Africa.

[FTS Gecko 24,135]

And, as you point out, your examples are all good guys who were corrupted, unlike the Orcs who are inherently evil, made in mockery of Elves - hmm, which could be read as an explicit value statement, come to think of it..

 

Actually, the Orcs also fall under the same "good guys who were corrupted" banner, considering they were originally Elves, tortured, broken and twisted under the yoke of Melkor until no remainder of their original form remained.  As would the Easterlings, Haradrim and the Silmarillion's fallen Numenoreans and "Swarthy Men", for that matter.  Melkor (and Sauron after him) was unable to create life, only twist it, tempt it or corrupt it.

 

Even the Balrogs, Dragons and Sauron himself, all originally members of the Maiar, all either tempted or corrupted into servitude by Melkor, and the Nazgul, entrapped and dominated by Sauron.  All evil in Tolkien's Middle Earth essentially stemmed back to the one source.  Ungoliant would be the possible exception.

[WarriorPoet 352]

 

The argument that Tolkien grew up in South Africa and therefore was participating in apartheid with his work is an overstatement, 

 

 

Especially since Apartheid was a post WW2 institution and Tolkien moved to the UK late in the 19th century, he grew up in England, not South Africa.

 

 

Yep, but you run into all kinds of crazy arguments when studying Tolkien. It's almost like Apartheid is a disease with which he was infected by contact with South Africa...

 

 

And, as you point out, your examples are all good guys who were corrupted, unlike the Orcs who are inherently evil, made in mockery of Elves - hmm, which could be read as an explicit value statement, come to think of it..

 

Actually, the Orcs also fall under the same "good guys who were corrupted" banner, considering they were originally Elves, tortured, broken and twisted under the yoke of Melkor until no remainder of their original form remained.  As would the Easterlings, Haradrim and the Silmarillion's fallen Numenoreans and "Swarthy Men", for that matter.  Melkor (and Sauron after him) was unable to create life, only twist it, tempt it or corrupt it.

 

Even the Balrogs, Dragons and Sauron himself, all originally members of the Maiar, all either tempted or corrupted into servitude by Melkor, and the Nazgul, entrapped and dominated by Sauron.  All evil in Tolkien's Middle Earth essentially stemmed back to the one source.  Ungoliant would be the possible exception.

 

 

Touche, sir. I obviously wasn't thinking of that.

However, I will still contend that Tolkien's descriptions of the Orcs and Uruk-Hai do share key characteristics with racist racial views of his time.

Now, note that when Nazi Germany was going to publish Tolkien and wrote him a letter basically asking if he had any Jewish ancestry, Tolkien defied them in his typical blustery manner.

[Conandoodle 1,817]

I watched an interesting fan theory on youtube recently. It was suggesting that each of the Starks represent one of the 7 gods, furthermore, their demise is also linked to the god's traits.

 

Ned: The Father: Honour and Duty. Eddard all over .. and it's honour that gets him killed.

Catlyn: The Mother: Caring and loving. She watches her children leave one by one and does everything she can for them, frees Jaime,etc. Yet it's this love that gets her killed because she won't leave Robb.

Robb: The Warrior .. runs to war, gets killed by it.

Sansa: The Maiden .. Focused on being a lady .. she gets manipulated all over the place as a result.

Arya: The Stranger .. Valar Morgulis

Bran: The Crone .. foresight

Rickon: The Blacksmith .. ??

 

I have no idea what any of it means .. but it was interesting. But what about Jon "the bastard" Snow? He possesses all of these qualities doesn't he? Honourable, loving, brave and strong, etc.

Edited May 11, 2016 by Conandoodle

[Dagonet 7,246]

Having googled a bit I found this pairing, which I agree with a bit more:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/105090-seven-gods-seven-starks/

It leaves Catelyn out though

Especially Sansa is often overlooked as weak while she might be the strongest, most dangerous of all the Starks.

If I might borrow a screenshot from the series, before the series decided to utterly wreck the character:

[FTS Gecko 24,135]

I wonder if we'll see Arya reunited with Nymeria at any point.

 

The last couple of books made mention of "packs of giant wolves, running wild in the Riverlands".  Seems like Nymeria may be cultivating quite the pack since she was driven off way back in the firs tbook.

[Dagonet 7,246]

I wonder if we'll see Arya reunited with Nymeria at any point.

 

The last couple of books made mention of "packs of giant wolves, running wild in the Riverlands".  Seems like Nymeria may be cultivating quite the pack since she was driven off way back in the firs tbook.

 

Arya had dreams of Nymeria. The wolf pack is also hunting Lannisters and Greys.

But Arya, I'm not sure she will *ever* return to Westeros during the course of the series.

[heychadwick 11,357]

 

 

I have no idea what any of it means .. but it was interesting. But what about Jon "the bastard" Snow? He possesses all of these qualities doesn't he? Honourable, loving, brave and strong, etc.

 

Interesting thought, even though the Starks didn't worship the Seven.  Also, John Snow doesn't count because he's suspected of not being Ned's kid.  

 

 

Especially Sansa is often overlooked as weak while she might be the strongest, most dangerous of all the Starks.

If I might borrow a screenshot from the series, before the series decided to utterly wreck the character:

 

 

Well, Sansa was weak, so she was left alive.  That allowed Littlefinger to start to turn her into someone powerful.  She's not there yet, but one of the sneak preview chapters is about her and you start to see her come into her own.

 

 

I wonder if we'll see Arya reunited with Nymeria at any point.

 

The last couple of books made mention of "packs of giant wolves, running wild in the Riverlands".  Seems like Nymeria may be cultivating quite the pack since she was driven off way back in the firs tbook.

 

Arya had dreams of Nymeria. The wolf pack is also hunting Lannisters and Greys.

But Arya, I'm not sure she will *ever* return to Westeros during the course of the series.

 

 

You don't think Arya will ever return to Westeros?  Really?  It looks like she's doing it at the end of the last book.  Crap...or is that one of the preview chapters?  It's been a year and I can't recall.  Well, we can only guess she's heading back, but I'm worried about not spoiling things from the preview chapters.  

[Dagonet 7,246]

It's been a while since I last read DoD. Hang on.

Looks to be Mercy, still in Braavos

[heychadwick 11,357]

It's been a while since I last read DoD. Hang on.

 

 

Ah, well, she gets an early chapter in the new book that's interesting.  It's leaked somewhere online.  I think in the Songs of Ice and Fire app, actually.  It's free.  

[Dagonet 7,246]

 

It's been a while since I last read DoD. Hang on.

 

 

Ah, well, she gets an early chapter in the new book that's interesting.  It's leaked somewhere online.  I think in the Songs of Ice and Fire app, actually.  It's free.  

 

 

Yeah, see the spoiler

http://web.archive.org/web/20140403003340/http://www.georgerrmartin.com/excerpt-from-the-winds-of-winter/

[Conandoodle 1,817]

George RR Martin is sitting on a gold mine. Fella should sit down, write the book and make crazy bank.

 

Having said this, I think he missed the prime window of opportunity about 6-12 months ago. The show and books had both aligned, the world was starving for any GoT action. A release then would have had EVERYONE buying that book. I feel that now, some fans who were drawn to the books from the TV show may now revert back to the show as the true story and not bother with the book's story arc any more.

[Dagonet 7,246]

Writer's block is a *****. He should've started collapsing story lines sooner, would've made his life easier instead of just tacking on new stuff like the second sons.

[FTS Gecko 24,135]

I would be very amused if he decided to go in a completely different direction from the show now, out of pure spite.

"Kill of MY characters, will you? Cut MY story arcs?  Hah! How do you like THESE apples?"

Edited May 11, 2016 by FTS Gecko

[Dagonet 7,246]

No season 6 spoilers

[Conandoodle 1,817]

12 months ago, he could have written "The very hungry caterpillar" and we would have all run out and bought it. Of course, the caterpillar would have to have been killed off by the 3rd act or we'd all riot.

[Jo Jo 4,808]

https://aboveaverage.com/george-r-r-martin-im-pulling-a-wonka-and-hiring-a-nerd-to-finish-game-of-thrones/?utm_source=keywee&utm_medium=Keyaboveaverage&utm_campaign=keyweeAA&kwp_0=111630&kwp_4=531022&kwp_1=284176

 

GRRM is pulling a Willy Wonka. 

Edited May 12, 2016 by Jo Jo

[WarriorPoet 352]

If you find a golden ticket in Westeros, you're probably about 5 minutes away from being killed off...