Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Equity

Stun to prevent parting shot

Recommended Posts

When attacking a hired gun and the attack would cause a stun condition and enough damage to defeat it,

does the stun condition prevent the parting shot or would the parting shot happen before conditions are applied?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Parting Shot happens during step 7 of the attack when the Hired Gun has suffered damage equal to his health, which is well before Conditions are applied (after the attack resolves). I.e. the Hired Gun has already performed Parting Shot and has been removed from the map is not around when it is time to perform Blast, Cleave and assign Conditions.

 

If you want to avoid Parting Shot, you have to stun the Hired Gun in a previous attack.

Edited by a1bert

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Careful a1bert. You basically just ruled that you cannot trigger blast or cleave with the Hired Gun as the primary target, and that's simply not true. Additionally, your timing ruling would prevent ANY primary target that is defeated from allowing a blast or cleave to be triggered, not just a Hired Gun who interrupts the Defeated state.

"Step 7" is quite short (Calculate and Suffer) and is not "well before" the end of the attack. Parting shot interrupts the "defeated" part of the timing step, which is AFTER step 7.

Given this, I would rule that Stun/Weaken/Bleed would apply prior to the Parting Shot.
 

Edited by Fizz

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Maybe my wording didn't make the timing clear, or maybe I misunderstand what you mean with the above.

 

(How would a figure being defeated or object being destroyed prevent Blast, Cleave and Conditions? The only condition is that the target suffered damage. Defeated/destroyed or not does not matter. I don't see in which way you misunderstood my text.)

 

Blast, Cleave and Conditions are performed/assigned after the attack resolves. Damage is suffered during step 7, thus Parting Shot happens during step 7. If the target has suffered damage equal to its Health due to that (still step 7), the target is defeated and is removed from the map (Parting Shot uses the same trigger and is explicitly performed first). (Becoming defeated does not wait for the attack to be resolved, it is triggered when the target has suffered damage equal to its health.) The attack is then resolved and any Blast, Cleave and Conditions that were triggered during the attack get their turn to be resolved.

 

The timing is clear to me and there are rulings that confirm that the target figure or object is removed before Blast, Cleave and Conditions are applied/performed.

 

(I.e. attack step 7: calculate and suffer damage -> if damage equals Health, take Parting Shot then become defeated and removed from the map -> attack has resolved -> perform any after the attack resolves abilities, including pending Blast, Cleave and Conditions, in the order of timing rules - mission/imperial/rebel. If the attacker was removed from the map due to Parting Shot, Blast can still be resolved, but Cleave could not. Harmful conditions can be applied if the target was not removed from the map, and beneficial conditions can be applied if the attacker was not removed from the map.)

Edited by a1bert

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Based on the timing, if a figure is defeated prior to the attack resolving, then the attack does not resolve (see the Relentless ruling for a good example of this) thus not allowing you to trigger any "after the attack resolves" effects (Blast, Cleave, Applying Conditions).

Once Step 7 causes a figure to suffer damage, then Step 7 is complete. When Step 7 is complete, the attack is resolved, triggering Blast, Cleave and applying Conditions. The check for defeat happens immediately, triggering Parting Shot, interrupting the defeat and causing a timing conflict, but since Blast, Cleave, and applying Conditions are attacker effects, they would resolve prior to the interrupt of the defeat.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think you are generalizing being defeated by Relentless (if that's what you are referring to) wrongly. When Relentless defeats the target, the attack aborts because the target is no longer on the map and you can't get through the declare target step. Here there is no such issue preventing you from resolving the attack.

 

"When figure has suffered damage equal to Health" is still a different trigger than "when the attack resolves" even if they were practically simultaneous. They are not the same trigger, where you can apply the timing rules. So, you argue that the former has to wait for the latter. Why?

 

And if the attack has resolved, do we revert to Mission, Imperial, Rebel timing?

 

 

Edit: Could not find any applicable Relentless rulings in here (maybe I'll try Campaign or Skirmish forums). Did you mean something in here https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/203219-han-solo-return-fire-question/ ?

Edited by a1bert

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/134793-official-imperial-assault-faq/

 

**) Does damage from Relentless count as damage sustained during the attack? This has implications for abilities such as Han's Return Fire.

 

   a) No, it doesn’t. Whenever an ability checks for X damage after an attack resolves, that ability only checks the damage suffered during Step 7 of that attack. Relentless is an ability that resolves outside of the attack, even though its trigger is the attack itself.

 

Specific part in red. The question here is: When has the attack resolved? At what point does removing the defender from the map prevent the attack from resolving? Suffering the damage in Step 7 causes two effects to happen at the same time: Suffer Damage, and Resolved Attack. Suffer Damage in this case causes Defeat. Parting Shot interrupts Defeat, but if Defeat happens before Resolved Attack, then how would any effects dependent on the resolution of an attack trigger?
 

My primary concern here is that saying that the Stun doesn't get applied before Defeat (triggering Parting Shot) will set a precedent stating "any time a figure is Defeated, you cannot trigger Blast, Cleave, or other Conditions, because the original target is no longer on the map."



 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I expect the intended/sensical interaction would be that stun is applied before the figure is defeated, but I don't think there is enough clarity in the rules to really resolve this without asking the designers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wasn't there a ruling that if a door is defeated the blast can still trigger onto the other side of the door (since it's no longer there).

Wouldn't this be the same? Blast and cleave still trigger but conditions don't because the figure is no longer alive.

 

Blast and cleave happen at the end of the attack and the only requirement is that damage was suffered. The target doesn't still have to be alive. Conditions however, can't be applied to a defeated target. 

RRG Page 9 Conditions
The condition is applied after the attack resolves.

Parting shot interrupts the attack at the moment that damage is applied. It happens before the figure is defeated and before conditions are applied.  

 

So I don't think that's in question. 

 

The real problem here is.... are blast and cleave considered conditions. Techinically they are but I think they are special cases. All other conditions include the use of tokens to mark the effect. There are rules that govern these tokens. Blast and Cleave exist outside this token structure and I'd say they are special cases. 

I think this order makes sense:
 

Declare Attack

Roll dice

Reroll

Apply modifiers

spend surge on blast

check accuracy

calculate damage

remove figure (suffered dmg = health) 

resolve condition (in this case blast. it still triggers as the original target is irrelevant now, only the targeted space is relevant). 

 

or

 

Declare Attack

Roll dice

Reroll

Apply modifiers

spend surge on stun

check accuracy

calculate damage

remove figure (suffered dmg = health) 

resolve condition (in this case stun. No stun is applied since the target is already defeated)

 

so with parting shot

 

Declare Attack

Roll dice

Reroll

Apply modifiers

spend surge on stun

check accuracy

calculate damage

remove figure (suffered dmg = health) 

Parting shot interupts, resolves and then figure is defeated

resolve condition (in this case stun. No stun is applied since the target is already defeated)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There is nothing in the rules that requires the target to be on the map when Blast, Cleave and Conditions are applied/performed. In fact, it has been established that the target is removed before Blast, Cleave and Conditions happen. You can Cleave a figure that the target previously blocked line of sight to. (And Blast can hit figures and objects that were previously on the other side of a door destroyed by the attack.)

 

Conditions are at the moment of this writing: focused, bleeding, stunned, weakened, and hidden.

 

Also, there is nothing that prevents Blast and Conditions from being applied if the attacker was removed from the map (for example due to Parting Shot or strain from bleeding). You can't perform Cleave though, because Cleave requires to select another target, which is not possible without the attacker on the map anymore. Blast only cares about the target space, and Conditions only about whether the target suffered damage.

 

(And the Relentless ruling from the FAQ to has no relevance here. It was about damage suffered, and not even about aborting the attack.)

Edited by a1bert

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The real problem here is.... are blast and cleave considered conditions. Techinically they are but I think they are special cases. All other conditions include the use of tokens to mark the effect. There are rules that govern these tokens. Blast and Cleave exist outside this token structure and I'd say they are special cases. 

...

calculate damage

remove figure (suffered dmg = health) 

Parting shot interupts, resolves and then figure is defeated

resolve condition (in this case stun. No stun is applied since the target is already defeated)

Why does blast and cleave need to be considered conditions? They are not conditions, but they are keywords for abilities that are 'triggered' (enabled) during the attack, but trigger and resolve (are performed/applied) after the attack resolves. (Edit: See the reference cards which explicitly state that Blast and Cleave are performed after the attack resolved, and also confirmed by Paul https://boardgamegeek.com/article/19363738#19363738 )

 

Naturally, to be clear, Parting Shot interrupts before the figure is removed from the map (before the figure is defeated).

 

Edit: see also https://boardgamegeek.com/article/19357013#19357013

Edited by a1bert

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To reiterate: My concern here is timing between when the attack is considered "resolved" and when the figure is "Defeated" as a direct result of the attack. If Defeat happens during the attack and not after the attack resolves, what step is the "point of no return" for triggering "after the attack resolves" effect? Is it Step 2: Roll DiceStep 7: Calculate Damage?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think this is getting too generic, which makes discussion quite hard. Most of the "after the attack resolves" abilities apart from Blast, Cleave and Conditions do not need to be decided/activated during the attack, because their trigger condition is "after the attack resolves". (Technically Blast, Cleave and Conditions are triggered during the attack, but performed after the attack resolves, which makes the language cumbersome.)

 

For Blast, Cleave and Conditions from surge abilities, you need to activate/trigger them in the spend surges step. Blast, Cleave and Conditions from innate abilities are activated/triggered automatically. Fen's Havoc Shot is one of the few that needs to be activated "while attacking".

 

(Edit: Note that you can always trigger Blast, Cleave and Conditions, but they are only performed/applied if the target suffered damage from the attack.)

 

As I see it, when you apply damage to the target, you have technically reached the point of 'no return' for triggering "while attacking" abilities (such as Havoc Shot) unless you allow takebacks, because you can't depend on interrupts lenghtening the time window. There are very few abilities though that you could trigger during step 7, let alone between entering step 7 and the "end" of an attack.

 

Once you have performed the applying of the damage and everything that it possibly triggers (a chain which may be very long with all of the Failsafe, Final Blast, Parting Shot, Executioner, etc.), you have the "attack resolves" trigger.

 

You can now trigger the "after the attack resolves" abilities that are not triggered "while attacking" and perform already triggered Blast, Cleave and Conditions (if the target suffered damage), in the timing conflict order (mission/core rules, imperial, rebel).

 

There is no point of no return for triggering "after the attack resolves" abilities until you either a) end you activation, b) start to spend movement points, c) start the next action, d) perform an ability that does not require an action. However, to be able to continue activation, you also need to determine if any "after the attack resolves" abilities of the other side (defender) trigger to determine the timing conflict order. When everyone is satisfied that all "after the attack resolves" abilities/effects have been resolved in the correct order (including Blast, Cleave and Conditions), you can continue activation.

 

All of this In My Opinion, with my understanding of the rules based on discussions and rulings from FFG.

 

 

Edit: I viewed the hero sheets, class cards and item cards. A large number of abilities have a trigger of "when declaring target". Out of the "while attacking" or "while defending" abilities, most must be performed before or during step 4.Apply Modifiers, a handful can wait until 5.Spend Surges, and almost all of the others before that. The only "while attacking" or "while defending" ability that can wait until step 7 is Havoc Shot. A number of abilities are triggered when targets or figures are defeated (and thus may trigger during step 7 of an attack, but are not tied to attacks nor any step of an attack, because figures can be defeated by other methods). And a large number of abilities trigger with various "when the attack resolves", "when you have resolved an attack", or "when an attack targeting you has resolved". Whether to pay the cost for these to perform them need to be decided only when the trigger happens.

Edited by a1bert

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks everyone so far. At this point I agree with a1bert. I missed the point that damage is applied during step 7 of the attack but this discussion does bring me to another question about cleave that I will ask in a separate post.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think this is getting too generic, which makes discussion quite hard. Most of the "after the attack resolves" abilities apart from Blast, Cleave and Conditions do not need to be decided/activated during the attack, because their trigger condition is "after the attack resolves". (Technically Blast, Cleave and Conditions are triggered during the attack, but performed after the attack resolves, which makes the language cumbersome.)

 

For Blast, Cleave and Conditions from surge abilities, you need to activate/trigger them in the spend surges step. Blast, Cleave and Conditions from innate abilities are activated/triggered automatically. Fen's Havoc Shot is one of the few that needs to be activated "while attacking".

 

(Edit: Note that you can always trigger Blast, Cleave and Conditions, but they are only performed/applied if the target suffered damage from the attack.)

 

As I see it, when you apply damage to the target, you have technically reached the point of 'no return' for triggering "while attacking" abilities (such as Havoc Shot) unless you allow takebacks, because you can't depend on interrupts lenghtening the time window. There are very few abilities though that you could trigger during step 7, let alone between entering step 7 and the "end" of an attack.

I disagree with this. I think the sensical way to do it is that every "while attacking" or "while defending" ability must be triggered during either step 3 or 4 (that is to say the "icons or accuracy" line is incomplete (or possibly that we should view everything as icons)). For instance if you decide to trigger havoc shot in step 7 but Fen has veteran's prowess then, when you use havoc shot, the timing window for veterans prowess to trigger has already passed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, if you have Veteran Prowess and want the additional damage, you naturally have to trigger Havoc Shot during or before step 4.

 

Otherwise Havoc Shot can be triggered at any time before the end of the attack to get Blast.

 

(Like I said above, most while attacking / while defending abilities need to be triggered during or before step 4, some during or before step 5. As far as I saw, only Havoc Shot - without Veteran Prowess - can be delayed.)

 

In practise though, you can decide Havoc Shot much earlier, so there's no issue.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I only claim this is what I read from the rules and my general understanding of the game.

 

I don't see anything in the rules that would not allow to delay triggering Havoc Shot (except with Veteran Prowess you would not want to).

 

1) Havoc Shot is "while attacking", which means you do not need to trigger it before rolling (step 2) and rerolling (step 3) dice.

1) Havoc Shot is not adding or removing symbols - you don't need to trigger it during step 4. (Unless with Veteran Prowess.)

2) Havoc Shot is not a surge ability and it does not add or remove Accuracy - you don't need to trigger it during step 5.

 

"While attacking" should really mean while attacking and not before step 6 of the attack.

 

But I also already acknowledged that generally it does not matter if you house-rule that you must trigger Havoc Shot during step 4.

 

Note also that there are also several Agenda Cards that can also be played after attack step 4, because they are not adding or removing symbols or accuracy. You may want to see if the attacker/defender uses their abilities that must be triggered during steps 4 and 5 before playing those agenda cards due to the mission/attacker/defender resolution order. (Like seeing if rebels are using device tokens for Energy Shield before Interrogation Protocol, Set for Stun or Explosive Shrapnel to not waste those cards.)

 

(If the Learn to Play Guide would not use while performing and a lower-case recover in "Note: While performing an attack, a hero may spend up to 1surge to recover 1strain", or if we already had a ruling about the timing of recover strain with the lower-case r, one way or another, I would not care to argue about the timing of Havoc Shot. The timing of the Agenda Cards should still give an idea that while attacking does mean while attacking unless the specific restrictions from adding/removing symbols comes to play with Veteran Prowess.)
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think you're reading too much into the letter of the RAW (remember, by the exact wording of the document rebel allies in the campaign can only attack once per activation even if they're granted an attack outside of an action).

It makes much more sense that there was an(other) oversight than that they intentionally left some stuff not have a specific step in a manner that the only practical application of which is to subvert what the conflict rules would say were they to be placed in the intuitive step.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Okay I'll concede the point because I turned the page and found "Any ability that is resolved "while attacking" or "while defending" can be used at any point during the attack..." *sigh* FFG's decisions with the rules of this game continue to baffle me.

 

In related news it looks like if there's ever a "while attacking/defending" ability that removes dice then you'll be able to use it after seeing the result.

 

Disclaimer that I'm not trying to pick an argument (beyond rules debates) despite saying something that may well seem like it:

 

  1. Declare target
  2. Roll Dice
  3. Rerolls
  4. Apply Modifiers
  5. Spend Surges
  6. Check Accuracy
  7. Calculate Damage

It's ridiculous to even pretend that one of these steps is not the intuitively right place for havoc shot.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...