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RodianClone

Does it Come Across Clear enough in TFA that the First Order are just wannabes?

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Don't expect answers how the FO obtained funding, trained legions of soldiers from childhood, etc, to come from anywhere, ever. 

 

"The details that would make a plot coherent mean nothing compared to the power of The Spectacle." -- Darth Abrams.

The Empire was huge, with lots of rich and powerfull supporters. All that didn't just disappear because they lost the war...

I like JJ. The character focus and interaction was just perfect. The movie was good. I do find myself want ing more and looking forward to the next one. JJ made me care about these guys and that's what matters in this introduction to a new star wars movie series. For hard core SW fans there are a lot more to go on, but this is a movie for everyone else too, as it should be.

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Also, the first order didnt care about the republic. they only attacked the republic capitol because the resistance was going to find luke and it was easier than finding the resistance base. The opening crawl tells us that the first order is obsessed with hunting down the last of the jedi, Luke skywalker.

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The only think I find clear about the 1st Order's portrayal is that they are young zealots.  Most of the leadership we see are very young.  So if the original Empire were the Nazis, the 1st Order are the SS.

 

I actually believe a more apt comparison would be with the Hilter Youth. Now, imagine that on a galactic scale, with enough resources and time to streamline the Imperial War Machine for a fresh attack on the new republic? This is the new Generation of the empire, largely fresh faced and determined to destroy the new order and follow Skywalker to the grave like a bunch of 1-Direction Groupies. DON'T UNDERESTIMATE THE POWER OF GROUPIES.

 

I think that they have been established as a new threat more dangerous then the last; Tarkin's early death in the first movie robbed them of many of their higher ups; these kind of people are almost entirely modelled on his doctorin of terror, right down to the super weapon that wiped out the core of the republic fleet. Sure I don't think they have the resources that the empire once had (I debate that it's much easier to build a weapon into a planet then it is to build a planetiod to hold a weapon) but they have efficiency and drive on their side, along with very clearly defined objectives.

 

I wouldn't necessarily call themselves wannabies as such, but rather they are the legacy of the empire.

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For those bitching/whining about how not everything about how the First Order came about has been explained already...

 

Remember that it took decades before we found out actual details about the Clone Wars, something given reference all the way back in 1977 in the first film.  Nor did we have any information about how the Empire came about or the Emperor came to be in power.  We also had no detail on Luke's father other than the brief summary that Obi-Wan gave us the same film, and in 1980 no idea what had happened to turn this former hero into the monstrous Darth Vader.  It wasn't until many years later that we got answers to those questions.

 

To quote Yoda, "patience, you must learn patience!"

 

There will undoubtedly be answers, in the form of supplementary material, some of which has already given a high-level overview about the First Order's origins.  But I doubt we'll see it in the films because for the majority of the movie-viewing public, it's dull and unnecessary information that simple eats up screen time.  For those that want to learn more of the history of the setting, the resources will be made available and the answers provided... in due time.

 

First and foremost, Star Wars is a franchise, one that's intended to make the owners (first Lucas, now Disney) a lot of money.  And that means being able to appeal to the masses as opposed to pandering to a very tiny fraction of the fanbase.  As Peter Jackson noted when working on Lord of the Rings, he could easily make each film be six to seven hours long to include everything from the books, but said films would be a fiscal flop as only a small group of people would be willing to watch said films.

 

Abrams has said in interviews that they went into TFA with a very deliberate idea of the film being akin to "Star Wars Greatest Hits" to get everyone, new fans and old, on the same page as to what to expect from Star Wars, providing a cleansing of the palate as it were to put the sour taste of the prequels out of the audiences' minds and remind folks that first and foremost Star Wars is meant to be fun.  Could there have been more originality?  Perhaps, but as noted Disney is a business whose primary interest is making money off of their intellectual properties, and with a 4 billion dollar price tag they're not about to take too many major risks with the first cinematic outing of their newly acquired IP.  Some risks were taken, such as two of the main characters being a while female and a black male, both of whom were largely unknown as actors prior to TFA, as well as killing off one of the more beloved characters in the franchise, something that could have backfired horribly on them, but they were all calculated risks.  Now that the baseline of a "Star Wars cinematic experience" has been set, Disney will probably be willing to take more risks with the franchise now that it's proven to be fiscally viable.  After all, we've got Rogue One coming later this year, and that certainly doesn't look like it'll be similar to any of the prior Star Wars films.

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I like the speculation that the First Order was founded in large part by ISB remnants that fled to the Unknown Regions after the fall of the Empire. So, continuing the analogy, the Gestapo bringing together fleeing SS units to form the First Order.

 

The new bad guy in Rogue One is possibly an ISB officer per his uniform. A pre-Yavin imperial shuttle is also seen that we've not seen before that is very similar to Kylo Ren's over 3 decades later. Pure speculation, but I'm hoping for a Rogue One - Ep. 7 connect. Possibly a connection to the ISB hunting the Rogue One commandos to later remnants that formed the First Order. Something like (Emperor or Snoke) speaking to (ISB officer or Emperor or Vader) after the Death Star goes boom - "I didn't think we were so vulnerable, execute Order 1" - a contingency plan involving the ISB forming a moth-balled base of operations in the Unknown Regions for reclaiming the Empire should it fall. Thrawn Trilogy style.

Edited by Sturn

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I think a lot of people need to see episode 4 again and see how little we really knew... Partly because a lot of decisions hadn't even been made yet. Jabba was just some guy, Luke wasn't Leia's Brother, Darth was not their father, Han Solo was just meant to be a sleazy jerk in the shadow of perfect hero Luke. But things changed, the story evolved and loose ends got taken care of. A lot of talented people helped GL elaborate on his ideas and direct his vision with modification and needed guidelines. The story wasn't already all done and finished from the start, it was made as they went along.

Edited by RodianClone

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Don't forget that Lucas completely expected that Star Wars would bomb, and that he wouldn't get the chance to tell the whole story, so he wrapped it up in such a way that if it did crash, at least the movie wouldn't end on a cliffhanger. So the movie is a lot more self contained. TFA has the luxury of introducing plotlines that don't get resolved in one movie, because there was no way for it to fail financially bad enough for them to can the rest short of them cloning Ed Wood to direct the films, and probably not even then.

 

I thought it was pretty much completely concrete that the First Order is built on the remnants of hard core Imperials? Somewhere in the supplementary novels or Essential Guide? I haven't even had the chance to read some of that and I heard that was a thing.

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I'm pretty sure the canon material says the First Order founders established colonies and built a full military infrastructure in the unknown regions and 30 years is plenty of time to do so. As for Starkiller base it was probably much cheaper and faster to construct then a Death Star since all the First Order had to build was the gun, the power and shield generators, and the base facilities while the Empire had to build all of that and the giant space station to put them in.

 

As for the movie overall I think it is better then anything in the PT but worse then anything in the OT. The film felt too much like ANH 2.0 for my taste and the fighters essentially being nothing but TIE/ln and X-Wing rehashes was sheer laziness on the part of the production staff IMO. I also hate the disconnect between the Resistance forces seen in the movie and those established in other canon sources. Where were Home One, Echo of Hope, and whatever additional MC80s or smaller capital ships that are under Resistance control? (Though from what I've read online there was originally going to be a Resistance warship fleet engaging the First Order navy over Starkiller base with Leia and presumably Ackbar leading the Resistance fleet in person but Abrams or some other moron had those scenes removed)

 

Still I think Abrams did a much better job with Star Wars then he ever did with Star Trek.

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Wow, so many posts making excuses for the incompleteness of TFA.  Interesting.

 

It also literally says they rose from the ashes of the Empire in the first paragraph of the opening crawl.

This^

 

Personally I am not miffed by the lack of info on certain groups throughout the film as I am a Star Wars nerd and will devour extra material I need to make those connections.  I just find it entertaining that criticisms of TFA ultimately resort to rebuttals of: A) it's a safe film for Disney, B) Lucas didn't do any better with the OT/PT, or C) just wait for Ep VIII.

 

 


Still I think Abrams did a much better job with Star Wars then he ever did with Star Trek.

 

That's a really low standard...

 

Also this^

 

To address the OP, yes I thought it was pretty clear that the First Order is a bunch of upstarts.  Well funded upstarts but still just upstarts.  With a large enough reputation that a small village on a backwater like Jakku knows that they should fight for their lives against them.  What I find even more interesting is they seem only slightly more powerful than the Resistance.  Not once are we shown the FO has any influence outside of their own military group, i.e. in bureaucratic roles either in their own territories or inside the Republic.  

 

I think TFA could definitely have used more exposition to bring the audience up to speed on the state of the galaxy and the struggles between power groups.  But clearly JJ wanted to show very particular things that he focused solely on hitting specific beats at the expense of clarity.  Something he is known to do, so...

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ST:ID was... very not good.

 

 

I wasn't happy with Into Darkness either, but I found the first Abrams Star Trek to be one the best non-Skywalker Star Wars stories I'd seen on the big screen up to that point.  :lol:

Edited by Simon Retold

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ST:ID was... very not good.

 

 

I wasn't happy with Into Darkness either, but I found the first Abrams Star Trek to be one the best non-Skywalker Star Wars stories I'd seen on the big screen up to that point.  :lol:

 

 

 

I love both Star Wars and Star Trek franchises. The first Abrams Trek movie was midrange for me on my list of favorite Trek movies. Into Darkness is my least favorite Trek movie of all time. It made everything I disliked about the first Abrams Trek movie worse and added new horrible ideas of its own. And apparently Abrams Kirk went to the Commander Shepherd school of Starship command because he never stays on the bridge of his ship during a battle. At least Shepherd has the excuse of being a trained marine Kirk just slept through the class teaching him that in a battle the captain's place s on the bridge of his or her ship. Of course with the Enterprise's record of being crippled by the first salvo of an enemy attack I guess Kirk can't do much good on the bridge.

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Most people seem ti think of Star Trek IV as one id the good ones, especially with the V being the final frontier.

The commentaty about modern hubris of humans being the only intelligent life (on Earth) still holds true. The thing I love about the old Trek is it often had a message. Much of the old sci-fi had 'hidden' messages and commentary.

Besides, as egregious you may find Star Trek: Into Darkness, it is not comparable to Nemesis.

The best Star Trek Movie is VI, followed closely by II.

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I know a lot of people thought IV was good... Which makes it even more absurd to me.

It is like Charlie Kaufman writing himself into the script of Adaption but then not tongue in cheek funny and purposefully weird.

Kinda like Star Trek breaking the fourth wall. Never got it, never will.

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I know a lot of people thought IV was good... Which makes it even more absurd to me.

It is like Charlie Kaufman writing himself into the script of Adaption but then not tongue in cheek funny and purposefully weird.

Kinda like Star Trek breaking the fourth wall. Never got it, never will.

For some, the fact that IV was more a comedy and "take that!" to both Trek and the 80's (especially when viewed now) was probably what made it enjoyable.  Much like the original TV series, it didn't take itself too seriously, and actually addressed the "fish out of water" aspect that the original series glossed over whenever the Enterprise crew had to deal with prior Earth cultures.

 

After all the melodrama of II and III, it was a welcome change of pace.

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The reboot was good.  Into Darkness was not, and was like "STII (again): The Antipodal Reboot of Kahn". Lousy story.  They should have had them on their 5 year mission already and they should have done a reboot of Space Seed if they wanted to use Kahn.  Put that together with some other original series location and flavor or episodes, change up the circumstances, instead of the 'every scene's a mirror image' mewling allegory on drone warfare and extra judicial justice we we served.

 

My fear is that I will watch the next one, Star Trek Beyond, and it will clearly have been better if they used Kahn as the villain in that.

Edited by 2P51

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