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surly88

Kanan Ghost with Biggs - the answer to everything?

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Well it's not like I came up with the idea, that kind of list won a SC recently and failed getting into a few Top 8's. So it's still pretty much under the radar, but getting more and more attention I guess...

 

There's also a video from previous regionals, where the list slaughters 2 bots ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxR-HNBYlkY

 

Easy to slaughter your enemy when you are not following the rules!

Accuracy Corrector changes 2 dice to hits after cancelling all dice results, and Autoblaster Turret is a 2 dice attack... however, in 2 rounds in a row, this combo managed to do 3 damage directly to the IG's.

 

Big difference when you are doing 50% more damage than you should be each round.

I haven't watched the video (i will tonight), but if he had the phantom docked, Kanan can use the Autoblaster turret twice in a round. So he could've had 4 uncancelled hits.

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Well it's not like I came up with the idea, that kind of list won a SC recently and failed getting into a few Top 8's. So it's still pretty much under the radar, but getting more and more attention I guess...

 

There's also a video from previous regionals, where the list slaughters 2 bots ...

 

Easy to slaughter your enemy when you are not following the rules!

Accuracy Corrector changes 2 dice to hits after cancelling all dice results, and Autoblaster Turret is a 2 dice attack... however, in 2 rounds in a row, this combo managed to do 3 damage directly to the IG's.

 

Big difference when you are doing 50% more damage than you should be each round.

 

 

What you were seeing was his Accuracy Corrector + AutoBlaster combo with the Ghost title.. This allowed him to perform the attack once during the combat phase and once at the end phase making it 4 automatic damage.  The IG Player was actually incorrect in only showing 3 damage when in fact he took 4.

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Well it's not like I came up with the idea, that kind of list won a SC recently and failed getting into a few Top 8's. So it's still pretty much under the radar, but getting more and more attention I guess...

 

There's also a video from previous regionals, where the list slaughters 2 bots ...

I was going to bring him up, but there he is playing the build!

 

Josh is a very good player (guy flying the list). He won the Atlanta 94 player regional last year, and made the top 16 at world's with me last year when we made the trek. I know he had 2 full wins, 1 modified, and 3 losses with this list on Thursday at adepticon. I hadn't talked to him about it since. I thought he might switch to something else (he seems to play a variety of lists), but I guess he stuck with it for the regional.

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or it was nearly 100% evaded.

That actually seems pretty lucky.

4 naked agility is 1.5 evades and a torpmaster should be dropping 3/3 hits or 4/4 hits pretty consistently. Assuming 3 torps you're looking at 10 hits (since kanan only has 2 focus) vs. 4.5 evades or an expected alpha on Biggs of 5.5 damage, enough to kill him.

4 naked agility? Biggs takes focus for defense. Kanan and Biggs slow roll at first and the jump out at alpha on the turn that alpha strike is eminent. Using the rock to both determine where the jumpmasters will go AND maneuver in a way that forces the jumpmasters to come into the asteroid field. By slow rolling at first and then jumping out quickly when the alpha is eminent, Kanan gets into range 1 of the lead Jumpmaster who will take 5 primary red dice from Kanan, and either a 3 red dice range 2 or 3 shot from Biggs, then and the end of combat, and autoblaster turret shot from Kanan.

As for dying before firing I'm shocked that 2 ships could deal 9 damage through 2 agility when those two ships have an absolute maximum of 9 dice both range 1.

Not looking to dismiss your success but the apparent ease with which this build crushed something like triple torpmasters seems like a mathematical anomaly.

By slow rolling at first and then jumping out quickly when the alpha is eminent, Kanan gets into range 1 of the lead Jumpmaster who will take 5 primary red dice from Kanan, and either a 3 red dice range 2 or 3 shot from Biggs, then and the end of combat, and autoblaster turret shot from Kanan.

Generally I chose to fire with Biggs first and do not plan to spend his focus on offense. I'm hoping to strip 1 or 2 shields on the attack so that Kanan's 5 dice range 1 shot, focused, stands a good chance of landing a crit on hull. When a player with jumpmasters or redline sees 3 red dice from Biggs followed by 5 from Kanan... And then I make sure to relay the message that 2 more red dice are coming with auto-blaster turret, many opponents panic. They get errational as the alpha strike has been just as much, and sometimes more, damaging to them as it did me... and I can do it turn after turn as I'm not spending any ordnance.

Edited by Sephlar

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I ran Stealth Device on my Biggs and take 3 big rocks + Tactical Jammer on Kanan.

Because I out PS jumpmasters. I've setup rocks so that after I see where he places his ships, I force him to either engage the alpha strike through the asteroid field, often means failing to get all jumpmasters focus firing on same ship, or it prolonges the many turns it takes so that I separate the Jumpmasters from the formation they would prefer (again, using the rocks).

Edited by Sephlar

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4 naked agility? Biggs takes focus for defense.

I'm sorry I don't understand how this is possible unless he has a) 3 agility or b) something I'm really missing.

It's possible if you forget about 2ndary weapons

Also seems possible if you double up on obstruction via tact jammer + a rock assuming you play obstructions incorrectly.

Back to the math, assuming Biggs doesn't have evade droid and instead just 3 dice and focus it's hilariously worse for him.

Assuming our best defensive case where two are nerfed by kanan we have 10 hits vs. 1.88 + 1.13 + 1.13 = 4.13 expected evades. Biggs is even more dead. Assuming the r1 shot + Biggs + autoblasters is good enough to kill a jumpy it's 2 vs. the ghost. They just blast out and play keepaway using their actual pwts. If they get the chance to lob r3 torpedoes it's pain city.

Math still does not look great for the list. Clearly how things are flown makes a big difference but this list should still be afraid of jumps I'm pretty sure.

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Biggs has four green dice and a focus (2 agility, plus stealth device, plus obstructed) and the rocks often prevent all jumpmasters from getting to Biggs. One usually in the back of the pack is shooting at a fully shielded (6) Kanan. Often after the alpha strike, the jumpmasters were not planning to be so close to a large ship and don't have the option to white signors and complete the move or land on a rock. Bumping ensues after the alpha strike. Biggs looks for ways to get his green move in (getting a shield back from R2-D2) and also force a Jumpmaster to bump before completing a signors or Kturn.

By end game, Kanan finds the perfect time to spit out Zeb piloted shuttle who again can be used to block/bump a Jumpmaster while Kanan now jousts with fwd arc.

I'm not saying it's perfect or wins 100% of the time. No list can.

But I can say that jumpmaster pilots see the 0 agility at pregame and lick their chops and after the alpha strike does not go as planned, panic ensues.

Edited by Sephlar

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I've played with a variation on this list and played against it a few times. It's solid but it lacks in versatility.

 

Biggs dies. Even with Kanan and R4D6, he dies pretty quickly. So the trick is to really punish the enemy with the VCX for as long as Biggsie can hold out, which depends to a reasonable degree on loadout, playing ability, etc.

 

I think this list is somewhat rock-paper-scissors and really wants to engage a 2 ship build that will take some time to chew on biggs while VCX crushes skulls. But I'm not convinced you're not better off tricking the VCX out with defensive tech and a more useful wingman. 

Edited by The Inquisitor

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I think this list is somewhat rock-paper-scissors and really wants to engage a 2 ship build that will take some time to chew on biggs while VCX crushes skulls. But I'm not convinced you're not better off tricking the VCX out with defensive tech and a more useful wingman. 

 

A fatter Ghost (maybe with reinforced deflectors) and EU might be a good start. Then back up with a tough late-game ship such as Poe or Red Ace. The question then becomes whether you actually need the Phantom. 18 points minimum for the extra turret shot and a late-game jack-in-the-box is a tricky one.

 

Alternatively, a Stresshog is about the same cost as Biggs.

Edited by Karhedron

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A fatter Ghost (maybe with reinforced deflectors) and EU might be a good start. Then back up with a tough late-game ship such as Poe or Red Ace. The question then becomes whether you actually need the Phantom. 18 points minimum for the extra turret shot and a late-game jack-in-the-box is a tricky one.

 

Alternatively, a Stresshog is about the same cost as Biggs.

 

 

My new favourite list has a ghost with lando, 3PO and EI. Evade and then guess 0 or 1 on lando, gives you 2-3 evades and sometimes a focus as well. Paired with two shuttles, a cheap one to man the rear guns on ghost and Ezra with PTL and Jan Ors and stealth device flying separate. Ezra with two evades and 3 defence, stressed so he gets free defensive focuses is damned hard to kill and a ghost with three evade tokens often offends. 

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or it was nearly 100% evaded.

That actually seems pretty lucky.

4 naked agility is 1.5 evades and a torpmaster should be dropping 3/3 hits or 4/4 hits pretty consistently. Assuming 3 torps you're looking at 10 hits (since kanan only has 2 focus) vs. 4.5 evades or an expected alpha on Biggs of 5.5 damage, enough to kill him.

As for dying before firing I'm shocked that 2 ships could deal 9 damage through 2 agility when those two ships have an absolute maximum of 9 dice both range 1.

Not looking to dismiss your success but the apparent ease with which this build crushed something like triple torpmasters seems like a mathematical anomaly.

 

This list can easily be out flown too.  The VCX and the X-wing are both bricks.  A TIE Swarm is going to have a field day here.  If you can get you opponent to joust with you and stay in the VCX's arc, then great!  I don't see a well flown Imperial Ace squad having problems with this list though...

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My new favourite list has a ghost with lando, 3PO and EI. Evade and then guess 0 or 1 on lando, gives you 2-3 evades and sometimes a focus as well. Paired with two shuttles, a cheap one to man the rear guns on ghost and Ezra with PTL and Jan Ors and stealth device flying separate. Ezra with two evades and 3 defence, stressed so he gets free defensive focuses is damned hard to kill and a ghost with three evade tokens often offends.

I like the idea apart from having to buy a second ghost just to get the extra assault shuttle (although I suspect they will be on eBay soon if they are not already).

 

For a tooled-up shuttle, I rather like the look of Sabine, PTL and Kyle Katarn for the crazy action economy. Too bad there is not a generic assault shuttle pilot the way there is a generic VCX100 pilot.

Edited by Karhedron

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Honestly, I've played Biggs & Kanan a few times, and 28-29 points on a ship designed to die and the rest of your eggs in one enormous, 0 agility basket just ends poorly for me.  Mostly theory, but the following escorts seem like a better option:

2 Prototypes

Stresshog (Grey Squadron to out-PS torpedo boats)

Warden Squadron loaded with conner nets

 

Stresshog will be a huge target even without Biggs' ability, but it will also likely melt round one after 2 torpedos.  Still, that's 1/3 of the torpedo load that isn't getting fired at the Ghost, and one of those ships has at least 2 turns before it can fire torps again.  Still, I don't like that offensive trade.

 

Prototypes give you good blockers, they can also draw some torpedo fire and if they are at range 3, might take two torpedos to kill.  Probably best "all comers" pairing.

 

The one I really want to try is a Warden Squadron Pilot with Sabine Crew, Conner Net, Extra Munitions and Advanced Slam.  Not only is this an Imperial Ace Killer almost on par with Auto-Correct (and in my experience, wrecking Phantoms and Interceptors makes life much easier for a Ghost), but it can cause headaches for the U-Boats as well.  2 damage isn't a ton, but it isn't nothing, plus no action and ion hurts a torpedo boat badly.

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My new favourite list has a ghost with lando, 3PO and EI. Evade and then guess 0 or 1 on lando, gives you 2-3 evades and sometimes a focus as well. Paired with two shuttles, a cheap one to man the rear guns on ghost and Ezra with PTL and Jan Ors and stealth device flying separate. Ezra with two evades and 3 defence, stressed so he gets free defensive focuses is damned hard to kill and a ghost with three evade tokens often offends.

I like the idea apart from having to buy a second ghost just to get the extra assault shuttle (although I suspect they will be on eBay soon if they are not already).

 

For a tooled-up shuttle, I rather like the look of Sabine, PTL and Kyle Katarn for the crazy action economy. Too bad there is not a generic assault shuttle pilot the way there is a generic VCX100 pilot.

 

 

Yeah I've been wondering about that too. I think I might be able to cut out the phantom from the ghost model and make it removable and fix up the missing components. I can probably sort out a peg and all that. It's the extra dial that is a pain. 

 

I love Sabine too. She's like a mini pre-nerf phantom and really hard to predict. 

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I was playing the brobots in the video linked earlier in the post and agree it's a good list.  It presents a couple problems for you.  You can try to fly in hard and kill Biggs, but then you are in range one of 4 auto damage.  You can dance around and try to get damage in on the ghost but it's hard to do if Biggs is flown well.  I tried to kill Biggs fast, which I did he only shot once.  After that though I made huge mistake and the Ghost was flown excellent.  I tried to get out of there and put distance between us but got blocked.  That combined with the turn I shot Biggs = 1 dead brobot. Its hard for any build that depends on green dice to survive the automatic damage.  Not impossible to overcome but it's a great list imo.  

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I tried this list with a minimalist ghost to free up enough points for a z-95 with draw their fire (about as cheap as I could fit it into the list). Helps with all the crits from torps but I think isn't as good as just a fat ghost with biggs.

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Well it's not like I came up with the idea, that kind of list won a SC recently and failed getting into a few Top 8's. So it's still pretty much under the radar, but getting more and more attention I guess...

 

There's also a video from previous regionals, where the list slaughters 2 bots ...

 

I am so confused. Did the brobots think he would out-joust a super jouster? PS6 vs ps5..... so he chose to fly directly at it side by side.

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I like the idea apart from having to buy a second ghost just to get the extra assault shuttle (although I suspect they will be on eBay soon if they are not already).

Yeah I've been wondering about that too.

Correction, they are already on eBay and can be had for £10 (so probably around $15).

Must stop spending money!  :wacko:

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I think this combo is dead with this ruling... not being able to lay the 4 auto damage is pretty detrimental.

 

 

Phantom/Ghost/Zeb crew ruling by Frank Brooks - i saw this on the main forum 

Basicly if you are touching the target, Ghost can shoot it with Zeb crew but the special Phantom attack cant

In response to your rules question:

Rules Question:
Situation: Zeb crew card on a Ghost with docked Phantom shuttle. Can the Ghost attack a touching ship using the extra turret attack granted by the Phantom title at the end of the combat phase. General Question: Is performing an attack synonymous with activating?

No to both. “When either you or they activate during the Combat phase” is specifically when those ships become the active ship during the Combat phase. Those ships are not (sic) considered touching during any other attacks outside of their Combat phase activation. This means that the Phantom’s attack at the end of the Combat phase, Corran Horn’s ability, Dengar’s ability, and for any other attacks outside of your activation, you count as touching.

Thanks for playing,

Frank Brooks

Associate Creative Content Developer

Fantasy Flight Games

fbrooks@fantasyflightgames.com

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You can still do 4 auto-damage, just not if you are touching.

Also some people are already querying the email. Email senders are only human and have made mistakes before (OL was raised as one example). Let's wait for the FAQ.

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