Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
KnightHammer

Official statement from FFG

Recommended Posts

And this still goes back to one simple thing. I as a player you do not like the ID decision, then don't offer your opponent a draw in the last round, or accept one if your opponent offers you one. Play the round out and either win and make the top 8 or know that losing you dont make top 8.

The problem with that logic is that if you're at table 5, you don't get to make that choice. Whether you have a chance at the top 8 is determined entirely by the decisions of other people.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I do wish people would give FFG just a little bit more time to evaluate the situation. No, they are not going to make a knee jerk change to the tournament rules 3 days after this happened. 

 

If the problem is that they need more time to determine how they should respond, I'm happy to grant them that leeway. But based on the "official statement" quoted by the Sentrybox people, it appears that what Organized Play wants is need more time to decide how to present the response they've already determined:

 

We are taking steps to help increase the understanding and acceptance of the necessity of intentional draws being allowed in tournaments. Look for an article on this subject on our Organized Play page (www.fantasyflightgames.com/op) in the very near future, which will help valued community members like yourself explain and implement the change.

 

What bothers me about that passage is that they've misidentified the issue. The problem isn't that I don't understand the rule, it's that I've considered the rule and its impact on the system many of us use to structure our play, and I came to the objectively defensible conclusion that it's a bad rule. I'm not sure what they think a few more days is going to do to improve the situation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And this still goes back to one simple thing. I as a player you do not like the ID decision, then don't offer your opponent a draw in the last round, or accept one if your opponent offers you one. Play the round out and either win and make the top 8 or know that losing you dont make top 8.

The problem with that logic is that if you're at table 5, you don't get to make that choice. Whether you have a chance at the top 8 is determined entirely by the decisions of other people.

Well, not entirely. It's only determined by the people who played the best in all but the last round of the event.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It seems that they are trying to establish a more "professional" competition, maybe give away more prizes or even money for winning a tournament in near future. This obviously  creates a scenario where (more or less) secret agreements between players could occur, just out of the fact that the stakes are higher. But this is not the momentarily situation, is it? I'm not aware of a problem of collusion atm. But now, as a teammate said fittingly, Pandora's box has been opened. Everyone might have that tiny voice inside his head, speaking: 'Get a draw, be in Cut' Maybe this is exaggeration but I think FFG created a problem that hasn't been one before.

Edited by ScumDan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

more prizes or even money for winning a tournament

The ID decision has already made me seriously question going to OP events in the future. If they announce a cash prize for something, that will be it. That would mean a fundamental difference in how tournaments work and who will be interested in playing in them. I, for one, got into X-Wing specifically because it *didn't* include that kind of thing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I stated this in another thread.    Since only tournaments with small number of players can be manipulated by this rule, make it so small tournys with top 8 cuts, count ID's as 0 points.    In a cut to 16 no one would have noticed

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am going to present a point of view that I don't nessaceraly hold as an example of why the ID may be needed in the eyes of FFG.

Before the Open Series the highest prize in X-Wing was the potential to design an upgrade card as the world champion. Whilst undeniably cool, not really a big deal in the grand scheme of things.

The cash value of the prizing already had some high level players effectively funding their trip to worlds by selling their regional/national/worlds prizes.

There has already been a case (I believe in Spain) where the top table at a regional played out an intentional draw to lock in the cut. This was retroactively punished as one of the players involved won but then had his Nationals Bye revoked.

As a TO I do my best to not interfere in games unless called to the table which makes it extremely difficult to judge if both players are doing their best to win, especially when they are both happy with how the game is going.

Enter the introduction of Prizes that (to be blunt) are massive, flights, accommodation and exclusive entry in to a normally sold out event to play in an exibition event has a huge value. Now you are asking TO's to make calls that have much higher stakes.

The ID rule is one way to take this ambiguity away.

There is no longer a need to call out a player for sandbagging a game or accuse people of collusion by playing out a draw on the table. The can now uphold the integrity of the event and not play out a potentially damaging game.

As I said on the show last night, if I ran FFG it would not be a rule but ultimately that specific incident was a perfect storm for how it can turn out. This will not be the norm.

I had personal experience with the ID rule two weeks before this event and covered it on the show then. I offered the ID in round 3 of a 5 round event for a few different reasons and my opponent accepted before the TO. As it happened that draw locked me in to the cut in 7th even though I lost the 5th round game. I felt dirty.

Now, I am over it. This whole thing kind of amuses me. I have the unfortunate personality trait that I see both sides and in honesty there is no perfect way to run a high stakes competitive tier event for a casual game.

Kris

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The amount of hate I see in this forum against people who are playing by the rules is insane. i know this is Internet, and it brings out the pigs in men, but still. Players who play great for whole tournament should play a completely unnecessary match just to give a chance to someone who was not that good of a player to catch up? i can't see the logic in that. I liked whole "fly casual" idea, but after this they seem as a bunch of hypocrites.

Not losing a tournament match does not automatically mean you played better than someone who lost a game. It could just as likely mean you got an easy-mode run against outclassed opponents, while the other guy ran into the visiting champion (or whatever).
Not too mention there are just bad match-ups.

Someone who goes 4-0 may have had some easy first games flying a hard counter to someone's build while someone going 3-1 may have been flying rock and ran into someone flying paper

Sometimes it's the luck of the draw

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Winning is more important than competing, these are regionals for the top miniatures game.

That is indeed apparently how FFG want some people to feel about their little plastic star wars toys.
Remind yourself of this as you're about to throw a fit when I deny you a missed opportunity.

I take this game about plastic space ships seriously. I'm polite during games and I want to play my best. Some others take this game even more seriously than I do, insulting me for taking it seriously. How ridiculous is that?

I'm not going to allow missed triggers just to please a Bonzo Madrid. If they get angry and on tilt, all the better. Ender's anger was cold, and he could use it. Bonzo's anger was hot, so it used him.

Edited by ParaGoomba Slayer

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I love how this keeps being debated. I'm in the minority about this. IDs reward those people that won early and often. Which more often then not means that they played tougher competition.

Concerning this ruining casual monthly events at stores. My store doesn't have a cut and pays out by record not standings. So draws really hurt.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dear FFG-OP team,

 

we accept your decission to hold on the actual intentional draw rule.

Because of this we need a little fix on the price support for the upcoming regional.

We need the following for an 80 player event.

 

80x Hera-Syndulla-Promo card

80x Cluster mine-Token

80x Promo dice set

80x Challange coin

80x Regional Championship trophy and bye card

 

Because an ID is now legal, and doing IDs is the logical best choice for the player to secure a win, we might have a tournament with only IDs.

Resulting in first place for everyone. For this case we will need the prices to reward all the players who did choose the ID as a legal way.

 

Thank you,

your community.

Edited by Tokra

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1) Do ID ALWAYS punish those below?  I can understand the frustration of people getting the shaft because those ranked above them ID, but if it's not going to affect them then why care?

 

2) Why not make it to where IDs are only acceptable when it doesn't affect those below?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

IDs reward those people that won early and often. Which more often then not means that they played tougher competition.

 

Fairly sure that's backwards mate.

 

1) Do ID ALWAYS punish those below?  I can understand the frustration of people getting the shaft because those ranked above them ID, but if it's not going to affect them then why care?

 

2) Why not make it to where IDs are only acceptable when it doesn't affect those below?

 

Because if it has no impact you don't need Intentional Draws. If the game is inconsequential then one player can just concede.

 

The only purpose of Intentional Draws is to mutually secure your positions, which is why their addition in a game where drawing is so rare and very hard to do deliberately without being blindingly obvious is so baffling.

Edited by Blue Five

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

IDs reward those people that won early and often. Which more often then not means that they played tougher competition.

Especially in this style of play, where players begin each event unranked and initial pairings are random, early pairings have the least information about which should be matched together. That means the most consequential rounds in Swiss play are those that fall near the end of the the tournament--and those are exactly the matches that can now be determined by intentional draw, rather than by play.

 

That is, it's true that IDs reward players who win early, but ID is a method of avoiding tough competition, not a reward for those who have already faced it.

 

Every match that ends with an ID is a missed opportunity to compare two players. A system where IDs are used (by which I mean a system that includes any kind of match where the results are not determined by the legitimate outcome of play) is more random and less competitive than one where they aren't used.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Encourage winning as opposed to not losing and ID doesn't happen.

 

Recalculate round count requirements with ID in mind.

 

Make cuts non-exponential: 10, 12, 18, 20. And you create a situation where you are rewarded for winning your last round but aren't severely punished for losing.

 

Reward players with byes in elimination rounds, not draws in swiss.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Early wins do tend to put you on a tougher track in Swiss. It's my primary argument against SoS as a tiebreaker since it penalizes early losses more than late ones.

It's true that they penalize early wins more than late ones, but I think this is a good thing and why SoS should be the main tiebreaker. I shouldn't be coming second in a swiss event by submarining round one and then tabling people all day while the guy at the top of the standings all day who loses the last round gets leapfrogged because he played tougher competition who he couldn't table each round.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

Winning is more important than competing, these are regionals for the top miniatures game.

That is indeed apparently how FFG want some people to feel about their little plastic star wars toys.
Remind yourself of this as you're about to throw a fit when I deny you a missed opportunity.

I take this game about plastic space ships seriously. I'm polite during games and I want to play my best. Some others take this game even more seriously than I do, insulting me for taking it seriously. How ridiculous is that?

I'm not going to allow missed triggers just to please a Bonzo Madrid. If they get angry and on tilt, all the better. Ender's anger was cold, and he could use it. Bonzo's anger was hot, so it used him.

 

 

1. I'd never criticise someone for denying me a missed opportunity, that's part of the game - not how I'd play it, but it certainly wouldn't cause me to "throw a fit". I don't know who you've confused me with.

 

 

Secondly...

 

 

I take this game about plastic space ships seriously.

 

 

That's sad. Sorry.  :(

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...