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slowreflex

Worries of a New Player on the State of the Community

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I do wonder though if there will be a natural power creep to get people buying new expansions or if they are aiming for expansions that fit without anything being adjusted.

 

The current designers (who first worked on Rebel Aces and Wave 4 and I believe took over fully on Wave 5) spoke about this in one of the interviews. Essentially, the game wasn't balanced in Wave 1. Of those, the TIE fighter was by far and away the best ship. It's become the design benchmark: the aim when designing a new ship is to make it as good as the TIE fighter but not better. This means a new expansion is much more likely to undershoot than overshoot: you can power something up with new content but not down. In the history of the game, only one release of the 37 (two cores and 35 expansions) has ever been broken enough to warrant errata, and that was for distorting the game1, the dominant archetype was instead the Fat Han squad that countered it.

 

The model isn't to encourage new sales by rendering older ships obsolete: to this day the best selling X-Wing expansion is the Millenium Falcon, a Wave 2 ship (the most recent wave is 8) and the early ships are still huge parts of the game. You see a lot of the new stuff because it's new rather than because it's overly powerful. Any ship that falls behind due to being mathematically weak on release or countered too strongly by a dominant archetype receives new content to bring it up to that TIE fighter standard.

 

The nature of the upgrade card system means that any new upgrade card that shares an icon can be fitted to any ship with that icon. This means that every expansion is effectively an expansion for almost every ship: a new Elite Pilot Talent can be put on almost every ship in the game (only the VCX, TIE punisher, K-wing and Lambda shuttle have no EPT pilots). Were a new Modification upgrade to be released now you could put it on twenty nine different ships.

 

This is a double-edged sword though, and the most complained about thing in X-Wing. Take Luke Skywalker, a Core Set X-wing pilot. He's got the EPT, Torpedo, Modification and Astromech slots. He's got, as of now, six choices of Torpedo (not including leaving the slot empty), seven choices of Modification2 fourteen choices of Astromech and a whopping twenty-nine choices of EPT. With every expansion released these options grow.

However, with just the set he comes with, you have two choices of EPT (Determination and Marksmanship) and one choice of Astromech (R2-D2).

 

With such a large range of upgrade options available, the chances of the ones you want (or the ones the most popular metagame build asks for) being in the same pack are fairly low. FFG doesn't deliberately spread out the cards like this (or if they do not egregiously enough to be obvious) but they can't add new cards to old expansions. If you're the type to play tournaments (which means no card proxying) and the type to get your squads off the internet then you'll have a large shopping list of ships you won't use but that have cards you want very quickly.

 

 

1: To clarify, the TIE phantom was too powerful against lower pilot skill and could get to pilot skill 9 thanks to the timing of its cloak mechanic. This forced every other squadron to bring a counter to it until it was errated to change Cloak's timing window.

2: Not including Stygium Particle Accelerator, Targeting Computer or Advanced SLAM, which he can legally equip but which do nothing on the X-wing.

 

Thanks for explaining that.  Good to know they are aiming for balance.  I appreciate that's easier said than done on print games.  One of the nice things with digital games, but they just aren't as cool.   :)

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I joined in Oct, I felt the same way at first. Now I'm use to it, or like a fungus that never goes away they just grow on you (humor intended).

 

Builds: It is hard to suggest a build for a new guy.  A good player with and average build will most likely beat a bad player with a good to great build. There is a lot of bad advice that is out there so take it warily.   

 

The best way to grow and enjoy the game is to play a lot.  There is no magic list because there is always a counter. For lists that I consider to be good builds, go to tournament results and see what the winner utilized.  

 

My suggestion would be do not use too many upgrade cards and focus on flying and learning maneuvers of different starships. Visualize and memorize the flying distances of the starships. The more you play the better you will become. I'm a better player than some of the people that have been playing longer because I play more often.

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1) This whole thing about intentional draws. 

 

2) I see no visible signs of moderation on this website.  Now, I believe that a good community shouldn't need any signs of moderation, but I've seen some things on here, like sexism, that I wouldn't have expected on an official forum.  When I check the lead moderator of this section of the forums, it says he last logged in in October.  That concerns me, but maybe there is a wider moderation team and that doesn't mean anything...

 

3) There seems to be a split in the community of what I would describe as newbie-friendly and newbie-agnostic (I'll use the nicer phrase).  I won't hark on about that one too much as it's pretty normal for a gaming community, but the balance doesn't feel right here from what I've seen...

 

1: ID's are ridiculous and will likely be addressed asap by FFG.

2. [citation needed]

3. Every "antagonistic" threads started by noobies tends to involve whining about perceived imbalances in the game, and always involving a misunderstanding of the rules. Naturally, they get roasted. 

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GIven the vocal majority its sometimes hard to see things through the noise.  Others have pointed out many responses, I just wanted to add this:

 

Listen to some podcasts.  Those are far better on community than the boards, with good commentary on all aspects of this game.  There's math ones, casual ones, uber tourney ones, etc.  If anything has shown me that this community is amazing its the April 1st joke that almost all the podcasts took part in.  Look to the guys that are commenting on all this stuff, they're pretty on top of all the topics that hit this forum.  I can't wait for the next ones that hit after the Hoth Open!

 

And like others have said:  Welcome to an awesome game and fly casual :)

I've not listened to any of these yet. Which ones would you recommend for beginners?

 

 

First of all, welcome to the community! As for the podcasts, I'm part of the Stay On Target podcast, and we have a segment called "Flight Academy" specifically aimed for new players to learn different elements of the game. We'd love for you to give it a listen and let us know what you think!

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Welcome!

 

 

The ID controversy started last night, so we're still in the first 24 hours. And it has a huge impact on tournament play, of which we're at the the start of the 'second' highest level now (regionals - only nationals and worlds left and those are each as competetive as the other).

 

This forum moves fast, so threads that get locked drop quickly out of sight. One was locked just last week after 30 pages of good conversation devolved into unproductive arguments. There are moderators, and the report function works.

 

I've yet to see anyone antagonistic toward newbies. If you have questions, ask them and the community will respond and typically be as helpful as they can. (There's often the "use the search function" guy, though.)

 

Use the useful links thread.

I saw podcasts suggested... I usually only listen to those with developer interviews, but Episode 11 of Mynock podcast is the best one I've ever heard. http://mynockpodcast.libsyn.com/

 

Have fun and fly casual.

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The main thing you should remember is that the more someone moans about "idiots" and advertises ignore function, the more likely his opinion is worth nothing, and he is a prime candidate for his own favourite medicine.

 

Moderators are stealthy ninjas here, they don't chop down threads, they lacerate some posts out and deal with them instead, post factum.

 

People just "disappear" sometimes.

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Slowreflex, seems like you came in just at the right/wrong time, haha. The intentional draw discussion is an anomaly. We will have our spouts on here about what is overpowered, and what is "breaking" the game, but that stuff usually blows over pretty quick. This is a bit more intense it seems, but it will come and go in time as well.

 

Also, try your best not to judge X-wing as a whole on this community board. It can be... a bad representation at times. Like has been mentioned, there are some fantastic podcasts to check out, and I would point you towards your community X-wing facebook page. That is where a lot of the more enjoyable discussion happens. :)

Edited by Kdubb

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A designer friend of mine told me about this game, saying I'd probably enjoy it a lot and to give it a try.  Based on that recommendation, I went out and bought the Core Set and two expansions.  Then I started my learning and exploration phase.  I started taking in the wealth of information around and trying to understand how to play.  The more I learned about the game, the more I thought I would enjoy it.  Then, some things started happening in the community that disturbed me.  Keep in mind that I've only been aware of this game about 3 weeks and it's my first FFG (and tabletop) game.

 

1) This whole thing about intentional draws.  I don't want to get into it here, but as a newcomer, what I see is an issue that has divided the community and no response from FFG.  Maybe this is because they want to let the tournament play out first (which I understand), but it doesn't feel right to not have any official response on this.  Even if it's simply "We're aware of it.  We'll review it after the Open is over."  Maybe they have and I've missed it...

 

 

Everything you can think of has divided this community.  If your new to SW communities I will tell you this.  They are some of the most hostile you will meet.  The only more hostile communities you can be part of is the Aliens/AvP/Predator/Prometheus community, 40k Community (the only community were people destroyed my property,) RoboTech community, and Macross community.  Ps Robotech and Macross are not the same...

 

slowreflex

2) I see no visible signs of moderation on this website.  Now, I believe that a good community shouldn't need any signs of moderation, but I've seen some things on here, like sexism, that I wouldn't have expected on an official forum.  When I check the lead moderator of this section of the forums, it says he last logged in in October.  That concerns me, but maybe there is a wider moderation team and that doesn't mean anything...

 

They have good moderation here, I have had two really bad attackers follow me on this site, one was following me into every topic I was in, they are prema banned. 

 

slowreflex

3) There seems to be a split in the community of what I would describe as newbie-friendly and newbie-agnostic (I'll use the nicer phrase).  I won't hark on about that one too much as it's pretty normal for a gaming community, but the balance doesn't feel right here from what I've seen...

 

This may be a dark perspective but I believe they are being nice to you to add you to the war effort.  That being the war on Legends.  I have seen more canon wars here than anything, and it gets pretty nasty.  But then again you got to fight for your fandom, not back down to your aggressors.  One of the popular ones here acts like they run to the place and they can do no wrong, and get away with attacking anyone they like.  Its because of the amount of "opinions they have made."  But they are like one of the biggest hostile trolls I have ever seen.  Trouble is I have seen this for years, when new people see this person they believe them to be nice, and so follow that person without question because they have manipulated them, deceived them into believing they are some one they really are not.  When given the chance, if they believe they can get away with it, they will make some real personal slanderous attacks at you.  Some are starting to catch on what they are really like however.

 

Anyway if your going to be here, I hate to say this, but prepare for war.

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Coming from the fighting game community and its various forums like shoryuken.com, it always makes me laugh when I see posts worrying about the X-wing community's health and attitude.  Even with the occasional "controversy" this place is a shiny utopia filled with unicorns and rainbows compared to almost any video game forum.

 

I would be more concerned if a community didn't have its share of debate and rough edges, as it would likely be a sign of overmoderation to the point of censorship or self-policing community bully tactics.  This forum is 100% fine.

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Coming from the fighting game community and its various forums like shoryuken.com, it always makes me laugh when I see posts worrying about the X-wing community's health and attitude.  Even with the occasional "controversy" this place is a shiny utopia filled with unicorns and rainbows compared to almost any video game forum.

 

I would be more concerned if a community didn't have its share of debate and rough edges, as it would likely be a sign of overmoderation to the point of censorship or self-policing community bully tactics.  This forum is 100% fine.

 

As I said, I was a moderator for DOTA2.  I understand how toxic a forum can get, but I'm not saying this forum is toxic.  I was talking more about instability in the community.  In any case, I'm not overly concerned with it, just pointing out the shock, which was mainly from this whole ID issue.

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Remember the age gap, DOTA forums are high school domain, hence the toxicity and extremities.

Here there are more 25-30 than 12-15 you can expect of a online game forum.

Well, nothing is a guarantee, there are some locals who do perform at the level unnatural. But it's an exception, not the rule.

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I also see an overemphasis on competition and winning over casual play.  The talk about intentional draws, etc. makes it sound more like high-level chess than X-Wing.  Part of the issue is that X-Wing has almost entirely competitive events like championships on the local, national, regional, and international levels, with few casual play events such as leagues or prereleases.

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  1. Even though I think that was an isolated case the competitive rules are always changing. Still you will always find something in the competitive rules that many people don't like. Such as MOV, modified wins, and other stuff.
  2. You new here, so yes you haven't had the opportunity but mods to come on this page but as this is a forum made for the community they don't get involve unless it is something serious like locking a 90+ page flaimbait SJW thread or stopping a spambot attack on a forum board. There is moderation in this forums when it is needed.
  3. I really don't see any hostility against newer players. There might be some frustration when a new player makes a new thread that already had a 7+ page thread on it (i.e. how to counter TLT) but for the most part new members such as yourself are welcome here.

Frankly I find it odd that you being here for a few days have decided you have seen enough to cast judgement on everyone in these forums. Now if there are any particular examples on these forums you would like to provide that caused you to come to these conclusions then please share the links. You can't really make claims without having something even remotely related to show for as evidence.

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Frankly I find it odd that you being here for a few days have decided you have seen enough to cast judgement on everyone in these forums. Now if there are any particular examples on these forums you would like to provide that caused you to come to these conclusions then please share the links. You can't really make claims without having something even remotely related to show for as evidence.

 

 

Huh? It's been a few weeks, not a few days.  Just because my account is quite new doesn't mean I've not been reading the forums.  In any case, no need to stress it or get defensive.  It's just my opinion and you are welcome to disregard it.

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I also see an overemphasis on competition and winning over casual play.  The talk about intentional draws, etc. makes it sound more like high-level chess than X-Wing.  Part of the issue is that X-Wing has almost entirely competitive events like championships on the local, national, regional, and international levels, with few casual play events such as leagues or prereleases.

 

This level of discussion is normal, as it is almost always the "competitive" community (including not just tournament players but anyone who plays the game frequently and gives a lot of thought to strategy, list building, etc) in any game that are invested enough to constantly discuss the game in the forums.

 

Casual players are generally not as active on the forum as they are more likely to be playing games at home occasionally, and otherwise probably not thinking about the game as much outside of playing.  These players are more likely to discuss scenarios and custom campaigns, or maybe write up a battle report, but they are not generally the kind of players who spend large amounts of time on the forum.  Often they might not even be aware of or interested in forums at all.

 

This is all 100% fine, people can appreciate the same hobby in different ways.

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1.  FFG doesn't not post official information or respond to anything on the forums as policy.  They're release a statement about the IDs soon enough.  

The commentary is vitriolic though.  

 

2.  FFG is really really really really horrible at moderation here.  Even spam attacks take down the forums for half a day or so.  The forum moderators also tend to lock any threads talking about sexism, so it just gets worse and worse.  This is truly a dude-bro hive with very little ability to talk about sexism. 

 

3.  You'll get all manners here:  Helpful, ignoring, and totally spiteful towards new players.  Normal. 

 

This is the most controversial time in Xwing history since like wave4 where only 5 lists existed total in the top meta.  So yes, you came in at the most tumultuous time possible.  

 

I hope FFG starts thinking harder about the long term and being more transparent.  

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Even spam attacks take down the forums for half a day or so.

To be fair to FFG the attack started in the middle of the night their time and was delt with promptly once their tech team got in to work. We're not dealing with a company that runs a 24/7/365 presence here.

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As far as internet goes, this forum is one of the more healthy and helpful forums around. I've moderated on a gaming forum, and the "largely hands off, but occasional ninja strike when needed" is generally the best tactic. It also helps a lot when the community is reporting bad behaviour like adults.

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