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k7e9

Question about Out of Darkness (Shadowmancer 1)

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Last game we got into a discussion regarding the Shadowmancer 1 ability Out of Darkness. The card states:

"Play this card when a hero is revived. Immediately perform an attack with that hero as if he were one of your monsters. This attack must target another hero."

 

We compared to Dark Charm where the card explicity says "You cannot force him to suffer Fatigue or use a Potion" as part of the description.

 

The main question we discussed was if the overlord could force the player to suffer fatigue as part of the attack when using Out of Darkness?

For example:

  • Bloody Dagger (Shadow of Nerekhall, act 1 shop item), could the OL force the player to suffer one fatigue and become bleeding as part of the attack? 
  • With Worn Greatsword (Champion class starting equipment) where you can suffer one fatigue to add one Surge to the attack? 
  • Would it be possible for the OL to use a hero Skill that costs fatigue be activated during the attack, such as Black Arrow (Wildlander, 3XP skill)?
  • Could the OL use a Hero ability, such as Reynhart the Worthys ability to suffer 1 fatigue to reroll the blue die if it comes up with an X?

Lastly, could a power potion be used in the attack?

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Although it's not sated in the errata I don't think monsters are able to use fatigue for skills. So even if he is treated as a monster he wouldn't be able to use fatigue. (I am not sure if this is true, beacuse why would they explicitly state in "Dark Charm" you can't use fatigue.... but I always wondered about that. But in the rules it is not stated monster can use fatigue... so a hero counting as monster should really not be able to do this.)

Normal weapon effects with surges and the equiped weapons (you also can't change the heros equipment) should be okay... since a monster can also use them.

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Good question, and I suggest that you submit it to FFG to get a straight answer out of it. Until then: the magic words are 'perform an attack as if it were one of your monster'. Because of that line, I am inclined to say that you use the dice listed on the weapon, as well as surge abilities on that weapon. Possibly also hero abilities because a monster can also use abilities. I am not willing to say that you can use the hero's skills because a monster has no skills. I also would not allow anything fatigue related because monsters have no fatigue. But even that last statement is debatable because sometimes a monster can suffer health (as opposed to fatigue) to use some abilities.

 

An official answer might be needed, and the fact that I am saying such a thing speaks for itself:p

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You cannot force him to suffer the fatigue, and you cannot use any of his hero skills. You get his equipped weapon, and that is really it.

I've confirmed in the past with FFG that the OL does not get use of even the hero's passive skills when he is controlled like this (for example, even if the OL is attacking with an "unstoppable" skirmisher, he can still miss.)

Also, keep in mind that there is only a 1/12 chance the hero will have any fatigue to spend, since he just stood up.

Edited by Zaltyre

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You cannot force him to suffer the fatigue, and you cannot use any of his hero skills. You get his equipped weapon, and that is really it.

I've confirmed in the past with FFG that the OL does not get use of even the hero's passive skills when he is controlled like this (for example, even if the OL is attacking with an "unstoppable" skirmisher, he can still miss.)

Also, keep in mind that there is only a 1/12 chance the hero will have any fatigue to spend, since he just stood up.

so the information on the card Dark charm is redundant? (or stated to make it more clear)

 

Good to know anyway, thanks Zaltyre :)

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Yes- that was a common thing with the original print of the game- there is a lot of redundant information (you can see this in the quest rules of the quests in the Shadow Rune, too.)

 

The one thing about Dark Charm's attack which should not be assumed elsewhere unless explicitly stated is the "force him to attack himself" bit. That is not usually allowed.

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I'm ok that the OL with such cards (Dark Charm, Out of Darkness ...) can't use any card on the hero that needs a price (fatigue, hearts, exhaust, ...)
 

I've confirmed in the past with FFG that the OL does not get use of even the hero's passive skills when he is controlled like this (for example, even if the OL is attacking with an "unstoppable" skirmisher, he can still miss.)

 

But when comming to hero's passive skills, abilities, etc .. for once I don't agree with you Zaltyre ! ;-)  .. indeed some time ago I asked this to FFG :
 

Q: My first questions are about Dark Charm and what I call passive powers : powers that doesn't need any type of payement nor exausting something
- Case 1 Hero Abilities: example
                    OL playes Dark Charm on Laurel of Bloodwood equiped with a Ranged Weapon (Ability : "Each time you perform a Ranged attack and the total range exceeds the distance to the target, that attack gains +1 Heart")
                    OL rolls 3 distance to attack Laurel himself, does the attack gains the +1 Heart ?

- Case 2 Class Cards: example
                    OL playes Dark Charm on a Treasure Hunter hero with the card "Sleight of Hand" already bought ("Sleight of Hand" : "While you have an Exotic or Bow weapon equipped, each of your attacks gains Pierce 2 (even while this card is exhausted). ") and equiped with a bow weapon
                    Does the attack done by the OL gains Pierce 2 ?

  - are the answers for Dark Charm also in application for all similar "hero control" cards : Shadowmancer - Out of Darkness / Shadowmancer - Treacherous Shadows / Unkindness - Imitation / ...

 

A: Case 1: Yes, Laurel of Bloodwood’s hero ability is still active when she attacks under the influence of Dark Charm. In the words of my predecessors, our heroes are still heroic at heart even under Dark Charm.
Case 2: Yes, the attack gains Pierce 2. If a class card gives a passive effect that requires no decision, then it is applied. Any decision-making class cards fall back to the hero to determine whether they trigger or not. So passive cards like “Sleight of Hand” and “Keen Edge” would apply, but a passive card like “Unstoppable” that requires a choice leaves the choice up to the hero player.

 

Thanks for playing, and my apologies again for the delay!
Kara Centell-Dunk
Game Developer

 

Last possibility ... FFG changed is mind in between ! which, is true, it's not something totaly new !!
But in this case, should better to try to have a final answser !! ;-P

To finish .... really a pity they don't include their answers in the FAQ !!

Edited by Felin

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I'm ok that the OL with such cards (Dark Charm, Out of Darkness ...) can't use any card on the hero that needs a price (fatigue, hearts, exhaust, ...)

 

I've confirmed in the past with FFG that the OL does not get use of even the hero's passive skills when he is controlled like this (for example, even if the OL is attacking with an "unstoppable" skirmisher, he can still miss.)

 

But when comming to hero's passive skills, abilities, etc .. for once I don't agree with you Zaltyre ! ;-)  .. indeed some time ago I asked this to FFG :

 

Q: My first questions are about Dark Charm and what I call passive powers : powers that doesn't need any type of payement nor exausting something

- Case 1 Hero Abilities: example

                    OL playes Dark Charm on Laurel of Bloodwood equiped with a Ranged Weapon (Ability : "Each time you perform a Ranged attack and the total range exceeds the distance to the target, that attack gains +1 Heart")

                    OL rolls 3 distance to attack Laurel himself, does the attack gains the +1 Heart ?

- Case 2 Class Cards: example

                    OL playes Dark Charm on a Treasure Hunter hero with the card "Sleight of Hand" already bought ("Sleight of Hand" : "While you have an Exotic or Bow weapon equipped, each of your attacks gains Pierce 2 (even while this card is exhausted). ") and equiped with a bow weapon

                    Does the attack done by the OL gains Pierce 2 ?

  - are the answers for Dark Charm also in application for all similar "hero control" cards : Shadowmancer - Out of Darkness / Shadowmancer - Treacherous Shadows / Unkindness - Imitation / ...

 

A: Case 1: Yes, Laurel of Bloodwood’s hero ability is still active when she attacks under the influence of Dark Charm. In the words of my predecessors, our heroes are still heroic at heart even under Dark Charm.

Case 2: Yes, the attack gains Pierce 2. If a class card gives a passive effect that requires no decision, then it is applied. Any decision-making class cards fall back to the hero to determine whether they trigger or not. So passive cards like “Sleight of Hand” and “Keen Edge” would apply, but a passive card like “Unstoppable” that requires a choice leaves the choice up to the hero player.

 

Thanks for playing, and my apologies again for the delay!

Kara Centell-Dunk

Game Developer

 

Last possibility ... FFG changed is mind in between ! which, is true, it's not something totaly new !!

But in this case, should better to try to have a final answser !! ;-P

To finish .... really a pity they don't include their answers in the FAQ !!

ggrrrrr... I experienced this before regarding rolling not enough range on a ranged weapon and 'missing' the attack like rolling an X. In that case, FFG has given multiple answers that contradict or were corrected later. In my, and others, eyes the number 1 problem of Descent; not including these answers in a well-written  FAQ.

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One thing to notice, even if an ability is always active .. you must always fulfill the conditions !
so if the ability specifies "hero" or "monster" in it's condition ... probably it won't apply (and if ever it applies it could be agains the OL ;-) ) !

ex : Beast Master / Savagery specifies "heroes" ! so you can't have the extra dice when using Dark Charm or similars
  same thing for Spirit Walker / Otherwordly which specifies "monster"

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Huh. The response I had from an FFG rules question specifically dealt with "dark charm" and "unstoppable".

Those are legitimately different answers (though to be fair, mine did not come from Kara.) I don't see the harm in allowing passive abilities to be used- we had not been playing that way. I was aware of the hero ability thing, which is why I specified 'skills" in my last post.

Edited by Zaltyre

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Thanks for all the insights. I posted the question to FFG and will post their reply when I get it.

 

I also asked some follow up questions that came up in my gaming group after I posted the original question. Such as could the overlord use Mana Weave (item) "After rolling attack dice, exhaust this card to add 1 Surge to the results." provided it is not exhausted.

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Our group had the same question, and received an official response last year specifically related to the shadowmancer abilities. It's the same as above, (only passive abilities are free game):

"1) No, you cannot use the hero’s exhaust skills with either card.

2) You may use the hero’s equipped weapon to perform that attack. Any card that gives the hero an option to use it (Exhaust this card… or Use this card…) cannot be used by the overlord. A card like the Star of Kellos (Add 1 green die to each of your attacks), which has no choice involved, would still be active when the overlord makes an attack.

Thanks,

Kara Centell-Dunk

Game Developer

Fantasy Flight Games"

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Got a reply from FFG:

 

Hey Markus,

No, an overlord using Out of Darkness cannot force a hero to suffer fatigue or use a potion, nor does the overlord use any passive skill that requires the hero player to make a choice (Use this card… or Exhaust this card… for example). Any hero ability that is not a choice is still applied to the attack (like Trenloe’s +1 damage or Leoric’s -1 damage). The overlord could not use a hero’s heroic feat. Yes, these answers can be applied to Dark Charm and Treacherous Shadows.


I hope this helps clear things up!

Thanks for playing,
Kara Centell-Dunk
Game Developer
Fantasy Flight Games

Edited by k7e9

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