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Capt Chunk

Cloaking, Action Windows, and do words matter in X-wing?

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If you based it purely on words, your opponent could state they were acting before you had time to finish stating your post-attack effects and then say he started his attack and your window has passed. Making Xwing into some weird version of the card game "Slap" where the first to blurt out what they're doing goes.

I see this too often with MTG, players that dont wait for for opponent response and rush to their ability of a card in a millisecond and claim it cant be countered because the cards slready resolved. I would hate to see xwing get here.

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Well, if we are getting nitpicky, the card only says after attacking so even if you measure another ships range for attacks, we are still in a time frame 'after attacking'.

You know that's not how X-Wing timing windows work.

I know that, sure, but for someone RAW crazy how do they know that.

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Well, if we are getting nitpicky, the card only says after attacking so even if you measure another ships range for attacks, we are still in a time frame 'after attacking'.

You know that's not how X-Wing timing windows work.

I know that, sure, but for someone RAW crazy how do they know that.

Our hypothetical RAW-crazy player isn't going to get very far if they don't understand such a basic X-Wing rules concept.

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The timing window here seems to come down to when the player has actually entered into the "declare target" step of the combat phase for the next ship that is shooting. Going by the rules reference:

ATTACK
A ship can perform one attack when it becomes the
active ship during the Combat phase. To perform an
attack, the ship resolves the following steps in order:
 
1. Declare Target: The attacker may measure
range to any number of enemy ships and check
which enemy ships are inside his firing arc. Then
the attacker chooses one of his weapons to
attack with. Then he chooses one enemy ship to
be the target and pays any costs required for the
attack.
 
Notice the order: you first measure range and check firing arcs, then choose the weapons, then choose the target of the attack.
 
If I'm understanding the OP correctly, the player had verbally indicated his intent to shoot at the only obvious target, but had not actually checked for range or firing arc. I suppose technically you're mandated to physically check range and declare your primary attack, but it was implicit that the ship was obviously a valid target. But if he hasn't done those two other steps, has he actually entered into the Declare Target step?
 
IMO, I think the timing window is less clear than some in this thread are making it sound like. To me, measuring with your range ruler and rolling dice are very clear events in the context of timing windows, and merely talking about your intent is not. If it's a case of "and now Soontir Fel is going to shoot your B-Wing... oh wait, first Whisper re-cloaks using ADC", them I think the TO's point about the game state not having yet changed matters. Nothing was measured, no dice have been rolled, and the opponent has not made any decisions, then what is actually happened that is causing a timing threshold to be crossed? Am I going to get into ridiculous gotcha situations because I'm musing to myself about what target I'm going to shoot at?
Edited by Daniel Beaver

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The timing window here seems to come down to when the player has actually entered into the "declare target" step of the combat phase for the next ship that is shooting. Going by the rules reference:
ATTACK
A ship can perform one attack when it becomes the
active ship during the Combat phase. To perform an
attack, the ship resolves the following steps in order:
 
1. Declare Target: The attacker may measure
range to any number of enemy ships and check
which enemy ships are inside his firing arc. Then
the attacker chooses one of his weapons to
attack with. Then he chooses one enemy ship to
be the target and pays any costs required for the
attack.
 
Notice the order: you first measure range and check firing arcs, then choose the weapons, then choose the target of the attack.
 
If I'm understanding the OP correctly, the player had verbally indicated his intent to shoot at the only obvious target, but had not actually checked for range or firing arc. I suppose technically you're mandated to physically check range and declare your primary attack, but it was implicit that the ship was obviously a valid target. But if he hasn't done those two other steps, has he actually entered into the Declare Target step?
 
IMO, I think the timing window is less clear than some in this thread are making it sound like. To me, measuring with your range ruler and rolling dice are very clear events in the context of timing windows, and merely talking about your intent is not. If it's a case of "and now Soontir Fel is going to shoot your B-Wing... oh wait, first Whisper re-cloaks using ADC", them I think the TO's point about the game state not having yet changed matters. Nothing was measured, no dice have been rolled, and the opponent has not made any decisions, then what is actually happened that is causing a timing threshold to be crossed? Am I going to get into ridiculous gotcha situations because I'm musing to myself about what target I'm going to shoot at?

 

 

 

That's why the TO ruled it the way the TO ruled it.

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If it's a case of "and now Soontir Fel is going to shoot your B-Wing... oh wait, first Whisper re-cloaks using ADC", then I think the TO's point about the game state not having yet changed matters. Nothing was measured, no dice have been rolled, and the opponent has not made any decisions, then what is actually happened that is causing a timing threshold to be crossed? Am I going to get into ridiculous gotcha situations because I'm musing to myself about what target I'm going to shoot at?

 

 

If we were to be really strict and make anything someone says binding, you could argue that as soon as the player mentions "Soontir Fel", he has now become the active ship, which means that Whisper's activation if finished - and with it the "after attacking" window.

 

But that would be ridiculous.

 

As long as no new information has been gained, I don't think a player's words should trigger game state changes... most of the time.

 

That said, in certain cases a player's words could be binding. If player A attacks with Whisper, doesn't recloak, player B says "Ok, time for my Corran to shoot?" and player A acknowledges... Player A can't come back and cloak Whisper once player B declares Corran is attacking Whisper. In this case there was an explicit verbal state change.

 

 

 

But I think everyone in this thread is in agreement so I should stop beating the dead horse.

Edited by Klutz

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Even in that example if the opponent hasn't measured anything yet, you could say hold on I recloak, and it should be OK.

Even under missed opportunity the opponent can allow the recloak after he activates his ship, if he wants. But he can now actually say no it was a missed opportunity.

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This is a lot of great insight and I appreciate all the comments.  I completely understand that once something physically happens in the game and new info is revealed the game state has changed and you can't make changes. I would really like a clearer picture of action windows in the game for cases like this.  I guess that's why in the title I ask, if words matter?  In a competitive environment with ships with highly technical abilities it makes a huge difference.  Is it "when one window closes another opens" in a clear sequence or do we like to enjoy the cross ventilation of having all the windows open?  Is the answer simply if range ruler is not put on the table a target is not declared? If a dial has not flipped a ship is not active?

 

In this case it's when does a cloaking window close and when does a ships attack start? Player A had the opportunity to cloak and was not rushed in anyway as his other ship was the next to attack.  He stated clearly that his next ship was attacking, you get into the grey as the opposing ship was the only target and almost touching in arch.  There would never reasonably be a reason to name the ship or measure. Does the selection of an attacker and the statement to attack with all that comes with that constitute a change of action window and therefore a missed opportunity? Or because everything was clear and understood the change in action window would not have occurred until his attack dice hit the table?

 

Which brings up another question of knit-picking, whether you have one understood target alone or many targets with one logical choice.  If the attacker declares who is attacking but not the target of said attack, did the attack happen?  Who determines the target of an undeclared attack?  (and a tree falls in the woods and no one hears it.)

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It's a tough call for the TO to make, given what you describe.

It's one of those situations where players have to accept that the TO will provide an impartial ruling, based on his best judgement. If anything, it serves to remind players to try and play as precisely as possible to avoid confusing game states.

That's why TOs earn the big money! Yeah, right. :)

Edited by TezzasGames

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and it should be OK.

Depends on... If that player says "Ok Corran will shoot the Phantom" I think you could argue at that point the chance to recloak has become a missed opportunity, meaning it's up to that player if the phantom can cloak or not.

I'd be inclined to let him, but there has to come a point in which I shouldn't have my decisions based on the current game state changed because someone forgot to do something.

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