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MajorJuggler

2016 Regionals Results

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Canberra, Australia

July 23-24ThreeD6

Players: 61

List Juggler: TBD

Winner (#3 after Swiss 5-1-0, ID R6):

  • Dengaroo
Runner-up (#4 after Swiss 5-0-1):
  • Howl+Zeta Leader Crack Swarm
Top 4:
  • Dengaroo
  • Dengaroo + Kaa'to (Mindlink squad with Zuckass Dengar)
Top 8:
  • Dengaroo
  • Dengaroo
  • Brobots
  • Soontir + Minni Crack Swarm
5/8 of Top 8 were Dengaroo, 8/16 of Top 16 were Dengaroo. Yikes!
It's time to start considering bringing lists which are hard counters to Dengaroo at high level tourneys if you are a top level player. What exactly that is though...
Wes, Corran, and Biggs
That should work. If you can stress out Manaroo and steal his tokens, that should quiet down Mr. Dengar quite a bit.

But then Manaroo will just run from Wes and probably succeed in doing so.

If it's the OCR4 variant of Dengar, Wes can just steal his infinite focus token. Though initiative matters here, because if Dengaroo has initiative (and they usually will) Dengar will get to retaliate on Wes before he steals the token, so he'll still get use out of it before ot's stolen.

Also, Dengar often has Glitterstim, which is an infinite focus that can't be stolen.

OCR4 on Dengar and RecSpec on Manaroo is immune to the Wes and Palob hard counters. Its not as good vs aces (no pain bot), but is has far less matchup variance. Just saying.

P.S. was this a top 16 cut or too 8?

Also interested of course in the particular load outs, OCR4 vs pain bot.

Edited by MajorJuggler

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Zuckuss is easily a 3 point card, intentionally under costed to turn the YV-666 into the Swiss army knife that it already looks like. I just wish FFG would apply that same logic to droids for Rebels...

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Zuckuss is easily a 3 point card, intentionally under costed to turn the YV-666 into the Swiss army knife that it already looks like. I just wish FFG would apply that same logic to droids for Rebels...

Nah

If it's antigree dice it's priced just right

Only problem is that it's not arc restricted, but if it was it would be fun on Palob :(

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Zuckuss is easily a 3 point card, intentionally under costed to turn the YV-666 into the Swiss army knife that it already looks like. I just wish FFG would apply that same logic to droids for Rebels...

 

If he were 8 points it'd still be worth finding room for him in Dengaroo. 

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Zuckuss is easily a 3 point card, intentionally under costed to turn the YV-666 into the Swiss army knife that it already looks like. I just wish FFG would apply that same logic to droids for Rebels...

I just think he needs a max number of stress before he doesn't work (4?)

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Since stress became such a big part of the game I think it's perfectly okay to have ships capable of eating unlimited stress.  Why should Rebels get dibs on Stressball builds?

Because those had actual limitations. Dengar loses two moves for that one point but can still turn around (and that one point essentially modifies dice more effectively than other, more expensive cards) . Then, he has plenty of other slots that make up for areas of weakness and ignores most of the rules of the game.

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Yes, Dengar benefits the most from Zuckuss, but there are other uses for the Gand too and I think it would be unfair to nerf him and by proxy those other builds, just to reign in Dengar.  Dengar is also fairly new and we may well see some new way to mitigate stress eaters in the future.  I guess we could see a FAQ that limits stress token stacking in some way, but I feel like that would be a very reactionary move and not really all that plausible.

 

Putting brakes on Zuckuss isn't going to do anything other than put that card firmly back on the shelf.  Scum doesn't need that quite yet.  I mean Scum dominance is still in it's infancy!

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Yes, Dengar benefits the most from Zuckuss, but there are other uses for the Gand too and I think it would be unfair to nerf him and by proxy those other builds, just to reign in Dengar.  Dengar is also fairly new and we may well see some new way to mitigate stress eaters in the future.  I guess we could see a FAQ that limits stress token stacking in some way, but I feel like that would be a very reactionary move and not really all that plausible.

 

Putting brakes on Zuckuss isn't going to do anything other than put that card firmly back on the shelf.  Scum doesn't need that quite yet.  I mean Scum dominance is still in it's infancy!

An erranta is very plausible and has been done with several cards. Ithink that reigning in Dengar may be key to a more healthy meta. He just dominates so many builds. I stand by what I said above that I'm worried it could be worse than the phantom. We'll see.

I don't think a limit would put him back on the shelf. 4 is a good number and gets the ship back to green moves but keeps him competitive. It's really too much to be able to force your opponent to reroll defensive successes all games with really no drawback.

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I think people should have some patience before they start asking for nerfs.

 

Jumpmasters have gradually chased most (maybe all ?) low agility high HP builds from the meta, to the point the meta got filled with high Agi low HP ships that do well against jumpmasters. Major Juggler posted some data about Regionals in another thread (not sure if it's all lists participating, or all lists in the cut) according to which Palp Aces and Crack swarm together make up more than 30% of the field.

 

If you hard counter 1/3 of the meta (Dengaroo is about as close as you get to a hard counter to green dice), it's not surprisingly you do exceptionally well.

 

If Dengaroo keeps being so prevalent, I wouldn't be surprised if lower agility higher HP ships start coming back to the meta (VCX, Dash, Decimators, even Brobots, maybe even Fat Hans) and Dengaroo doesn't do so great vs those.

 

Once again when Scum dominates the backlash is way, way greater than when Empire or Rebels dominate :(

Edited by LordBlades

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Eh...Dengar doesn't hardcounter green dice

Guaranteed damage and autoblasters do

Zuckus just mitigates the effectiveness of green dice

The difference is important because dengar torpscouts and crackswarm CAN hit palp aces but they murder low agi FAR more easily (unless it's zuckus v no mod green dice, then yeah byebye ace; try not to get blocked next time)

Only thing that kills aces more easily is guaranteed damage ala bombs feedback etc

Edited by ficklegreendice

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The difference is important because dengar torpscouts and crackswarm CAN hit palp aces but they murder low agi FAR more easily

 

 

Dengar is nowhere near torp scouts levels of damage vs low agility targets. Dengar's damage is very reliable (even through greens), but it's not that high. All he gets is one 3 dice primary with 2 shots (compared to triple scouts' 4 dice x3). Dengar will never be able to trade shots with stuff like Brobots or Dash/VCX lists and come out on top.

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Well one torp, and a 3 dice primary if shot at

Defending with two greens, a permanent focus abd a reroll per defense roll

With VERY relevant countermeasure TL slaps against FCS and Dash's action

Top it all off with Dengar being almost as immune to debris as Dash, and permanently mods not being affected by ig88b's ability and eh

Not even getting into ps 9 dengar being able to jockey for a good position on the approach. You can't even block him due to manny, you just give him a better exchange

Basically, they're no triple scouts

But brobots aren't low agility anyway so eh

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Canberra, Australia

July 23-24ThreeD6

Players: 61

List Juggler: TBD

Winner (#3 after Swiss 5-1-0, ID R6):

  • Dengaroo
Runner-up (#4 after Swiss 5-0-1):
  • Howl+Zeta Leader Crack Swarm
Top 4:
  • Dengaroo
  • Dengaroo + Kaa'to (Mindlink squad with Zuckass Dengar)
Top 8:
  • Dengaroo
  • Dengaroo
  • Brobots
  • Soontir + Minni Crack Swarm
5/8 of Top 8 were Dengaroo, 8/16 of Top 16 were Dengaroo. Yikes!
It's time to start considering bringing lists which are hard counters to Dengaroo at high level tourneys if you are a top level player. What exactly that is though...
Wes, Corran, and Biggs
That should work. If you can stress out Manaroo and steal his tokens, that should quiet down Mr. Dengar quite a bit.

But then Manaroo will just run from Wes and probably succeed in doing so.

If it's the OCR4 variant of Dengar, Wes can just steal his infinite focus token. Though initiative matters here, because if Dengaroo has initiative (and they usually will) Dengar will get to retaliate on Wes before he steals the token, so he'll still get use out of it before ot's stolen.

Also, Dengar often has Glitterstim, which is an infinite focus that can't be stolen.

OCR4 on Dengar and RecSpec on Manaroo is immune to the Wes and Palob hard counters. Its not as good vs aces (no pain bot), but is has far less matchup variance. Just saying.

P.S. was this a top 16 cut or too 8?

Also interested of course in the particular load outs, OCR4 vs pain bot.

 

 

Bob - Full round by round and squad lists can be found here: http://www.tabletoptournaments.com.au/X-Wing-Regionals

 

This is great custom software the store (ThreeD6) use and it is fantastic. They generally post a link on the Australian Facebook site at big events and use the real time ladder/results along with a live feed to make a great event to watch from home. Kudos to Brad and his team at ThreeD6!

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You don't need rec spec. Just focus with manaroo and focus with dengar's action.

If you're facing a list with a t-65 in it you probably don't need to pile on the stress with zuckuss.

I like recon specialist for two reasons

1) Wes

2) if more than two ships do get shots off against Manny

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You don't need rec spec. Just focus with manaroo and focus with dengar's action.

If you're facing a list with a t-65 in it you probably don't need to pile on the stress with zuckuss.

 

That only works for the first round, after which point Dengar never gets an action again.

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If he were 8 points it'd still be worth finding room for him in Dengaroo. 

But the same can be said about Countermeasures for the list, and before Dengaroo existed, Countermeasures was widely regarded as over costed at 3.  You could really say any of the cards in the combo is undercosted because you could run the list at something like 89 points and it would still destroy 99% of possible list compilations. If anyone is willing to take the same route as those players that only took 2 Phantoms to tournaments with a 12 point (or something like that) initiative bid except this time with Dengaroo to prove a point, I would applaud you.

 

Having said that, I do believe Zuckuss is undercosted due to no restriction on the stress pile. It's really interesting how FFG has gone from one side of the spectrum with these types of cards to the other. Both Opportunist and Elusiveness deny usage if you are stressed at all. Zuckuss and Overclocked have unlimited use. Wonder if in the future they will meet somewhere in the middle, saying you can't use the card if you have 2-5 stress.

 

Either way, the days of Dengaroo should be pretty interesting. If anyone can find a consistent counter or two, could open up the meta wider. I'm just hoping that counter isn't Uboats. Nothing quite as fun as a one ship type meta...

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If he were 8 points it'd still be worth finding room for him in Dengaroo. 

But the same can be said about Countermeasures for the list, and before Dengaroo existed, Countermeasures was widely regarded as over costed at 3.  

 

Sure, but Zuckuss also has a role on the party bus, which is perfectly competitive, as well as on ships that alpha strike have pushed out of the meta, such as the HWK or G1-A (sadly, the pilot that would most like Zuckuss crew is, uh, Zuckuss, so). Although there the stress is a notable drawback instead of being wholly irrelevant.

 

In terms of counterplay, the worst thing about dengaroo is that both Dengar and the painbot are may, not must. If they were must you could at least protect your most vulnerable ships by playing with firing order. As is, you just can't have your 1 hp ship ever shoot at Manaroo without a 50% chance it explodes, because in most cases there's no reason for the Manaroo player not to hold on to the ability in order to discourage that shot. Compare with Rebel Captive, for instance. Rebel Captive is a strong card, but if the player running it got to choose which ship was going to eat the stress? No.

 

And against a 3/4 hp ship, a 50% chance of a damage is just as frightening as a stress. Possibly more so. 

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If he were 8 points it'd still be worth finding room for him in Dengaroo.

But the same can be said about Countermeasures for the list, and before Dengaroo existed, Countermeasures was widely regarded as over costed at 3.

Sure, but Zuckuss also has a role on the party bus, which is perfectly competitive, as well as on ships that alpha strike have pushed out of the meta, such as the HWK or G1-A (sadly, the pilot that would most like Zuckuss crew is, uh, Zuckuss, so). Although there the stress is a notable drawback instead of being wholly irrelevant.

In terms of counterplay, the worst thing about dengaroo is that both Dengar and the painbot are may, not must. If they were must you could at least protect your most vulnerable ships by playing with firing order. As is, you just can't have your 1 hp ship ever shoot at Manaroo without a 50% chance it explodes, because in most cases there's no reason for the Manaroo player not to hold on to the ability in order to discourage that shot. Compare with Rebel Captive, for instance. Rebel Captive is a strong card, but if the player running it got to choose which ship was going to eat the stress? No.

And against a 3/4 hp ship, a 50% chance of a damage is just as frightening as a stress. Possibly more so.

Your point about Zuckuss is a good one and a card/effect doesn't need to be a problem on more than just one ship to cause an imbalance in the meta. (ACD and the decloaking mechanism were fine on non-whisper ships).

The painbot by itself isn't bad but it does lead to the continuing snowball effect that we see on Dengar, reasons not to shoot him, reasons you pay for shooting him, especially if he already has other cards active to make it hard to puch damage through.

Edited by AlexW

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If he were 8 points it'd still be worth finding room for him in Dengaroo. 

But the same can be said about Countermeasures for the list, and before Dengaroo existed, Countermeasures was widely regarded as over costed at 3.  You could really say any of the cards in the combo is undercosted because you could run the list at something like 89 points and it would still destroy 99% of possible list compilations. If anyone is willing to take the same route as those players that only took 2 Phantoms to tournaments with a 12 point (or something like that) initiative bid except this time with Dengaroo to prove a point, I would applaud you.

 

Having said that, I do believe Zuckuss is undercosted due to no restriction on the stress pile. It's really interesting how FFG has gone from one side of the spectrum with these types of cards to the other. Both Opportunist and Elusiveness deny usage if you are stressed at all. Zuckuss and Overclocked have unlimited use. Wonder if in the future they will meet somewhere in the middle, saying you can't use the card if you have 2-5 stress.

 

Either way, the days of Dengaroo should be pretty interesting. If anyone can find a consistent counter or two, could open up the meta wider. I'm just hoping that counter isn't Uboats. Nothing quite as fun as a one ship type meta...

 

 

I dunno guys... three weeks ago it was all about nerfing U-Boats.

 

I say give it three more weeks.

 

Imperial players and their greed. During the wave 7 meta there were Imperial players seriously complaining about the stresshog because it was undercosted, too easy to utilize, and an autoinclude.

 

Remember, we can't have a nerf to palp aces, but we have to nerf U-Boats because they're undercosted, too easy to utilize, and they use upgrade combinations that are way too powerful.

 

​Palp aces is the real problem list.

Edited by ParaGoomba Slayer

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