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Desslok

Players and the Perpetual Poverty Problem

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Or it might give one reason to reconsider the viability of the concept of a trillion-person ecumenopolis incapable of feeding itself..

As an extreme example yes. Outside of the Core ecumenopoli like Nar Shaddaa or Taris aren't so bad. There must be plenty of higher tech Star Wars options for food preservation and storage.

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Or it might give one reason to reconsider the viability of the concept of a trillion-person ecumenopolis incapable of feeding itself..

 

The food in my city spends most likely longer in that container to bring to me from Israel to me in europe than it takes to bring fresh food from an agri-world to coruscant. Hyperspace made not only travel between systems not only possible, but as well incredible fast and affordable. And with the amount of water needed for that trillion people, you most likely do not want to start urban farming projects on the planet either. It easier to just bring the food. And it is cheap as well, considering that the larger star wars freighters dwarf today freighters by magnitudes as well.

 

Oh and 14 days turnaround time sounds more like the time you need to bring something from coruscant to the outer rim. It takes 5 days from coruscant to tatooine with x1 speed. And 36 hours to the agri-worlds of corellia.  

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Or it might give one reason to reconsider the viability of the concept of a trillion-person ecumenopolis incapable of feeding itself..

Of course, there's the possibility that it can feed itself, at least to a limited degree. Fungi and algae farming  in the deep levels could be done for subsistence level grub, and hydroponics might fill many of the internal spaces of those massive towers.

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Oh and 14 days turnaround time sounds more like the time you need to bring something from coruscant to the outer rim. It takes 5 days from coruscant to tatooine with x1 speed. And 36 hours to the agri-worlds of corellia.  

 

A x1 hyperdrive is typically found on fast (usually military) vessels, Most bulk freighters have x3 or x4 hyperdrives, which is why light freighters are downright speedy with their typical x2 hyperdrives.

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Oh and 14 days turnaround time sounds more like the time you need to bring something from coruscant to the outer rim. It takes 5 days from coruscant to tatooine with x1 speed. And 36 hours to the agri-worlds of corellia.  

 

A x1 hyperdrive is typically found on fast (usually military) vessels, Most bulk freighters have x3 or x4 hyperdrives, which is why light freighters are downright speedy with their typical x2 hyperdrives.

 

 

Absolutely, but as mentioned if is just 5 days from the center of the galaxy to some rundown shithole like tatooine on x1. 15 days on x3.

36 hours on x1 are on a x4 are still just 6 days. Hyperspace lanes are fast, especially within the core even with those x3 bulk freighter engines, and those can deal with already close to 100,000 metric tons. 

 

And for the sustainability, well the coruscant is the center for millions of worlds, basically all sending goods and people to imperial center. Sounds not like a model which works for many worlds in the galaxy, but at least some. 

 

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Or it might give one reason to reconsider the viability of the concept of a trillion-person ecumenopolis incapable of feeding itself..

 

The food in my city spends most likely longer in that container to bring to me from Israel to me in europe than it takes to bring fresh food from an agri-world to coruscant. Hyperspace made not only travel between systems not only possible, but as well incredible fast and affordable. And with the amount of water needed for that trillion people, you most likely do not want to start urban farming projects on the planet either. It easier to just bring the food. And it is cheap as well, considering that the larger star wars freighters dwarf today freighters by magnitudes as well.

 

Oh and 14 days turnaround time sounds more like the time you need to bring something from coruscant to the outer rim. It takes 5 days from coruscant to tatooine with x1 speed. And 36 hours to the agri-worlds of corellia.

 

14 days is a rough estimate including loading at the origin, traffic in the origin system, hyperspace, traffic at Coruscant (a huge deal), unloading queue, any other issues that arise, etc. 

 

It's not like whatever they're using to ship the food -- containers or otherwise -- just magically load, pop into hyperspace, poof into the bay and unload at Coruscant, and then disappear.

 

Absolutely, but as mentioned if is just 5 days from the center of the galaxy to some rundown shithole like tatooine on x1. 15 days on x3.

36 hours on x1 are on a x4 are still just 6 days. Hyperspace lanes are fast, especially within the core even with those x3 bulk freighter engines, and those can deal with already close to 100,000 metric tons.

100,000 tons... OK.

That's as many as 25000 of those bulk freighters that have to unload every day, day after day.

We'll be generous and cut the turnaround time down to 10 days. That means that just to FEED Coruscant, you'd need 250,000 of those biggest bulk freighters, and the means to queue up, direct, and unload 25000 of them every day. .

Personally, if I wanted to cripple any government based on Coruscant, I'd ignore all the other objectives and work on a force of long-endurance hyperspace-capable drone/droid starfighters, and deploy the carriers in deep interstellar space where no one ever looks. Send the fighters off to lurk, engage bulk freighters at vulnerable moments, harass the infrastructure at the agri-worlds, snarl traffic, get the escorts chasing their tails, etc. I might never stop enough food to cause any real damage, but one trillion people worried about whether they'll have food next week and constant sensationalist media coverage would do the damage for me.

Edited by MaxKilljoy

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Absolutely, but as mentioned if is just 5 days from the center of the galaxy to some rundown shithole like tatooine on x1. 15 days on x3.

36 hours on x1 are on a x4 are still just 6 days. Hyperspace lanes are fast, especially within the core even with those x3 bulk freighter engines, and those can deal with already close to 100,000 metric tons.

100,000 tons... OK.

That's as many as 25000 of those bulk freighters that have to unload every day, day after day.

We'll be generous and cut the turnaround time down to 10 days. That means that just to FEED Coruscant, you'd need 250,000 of those biggest bulk freighters, and the means to queue up, direct, and unload 25000 of them every day. .

Personally, if I wanted to cripple any government based on Coruscant, I'd ignore all the other objectives and work on a force of long-endurance hyperspace-capable drone/droid starfighters, and deploy the carriers in deep interstellar space where no one ever looks. Send the fighters off to lurk, engage bulk freighters at vulnerable moments, harass the infrastructure at the agri-worlds, snarl traffic, get the escorts chasing their tails, etc. I might never stop enough food to cause any real damage, but one trillion people worried about whether they'll have food next week and constant sensationalist media coverage would do the damage for me.

 

 

Bulk freighters are by no means the biggest freighters. The action VI transport bulk freighter should be iirc Sil 5 with its 125m length. Loading and unloading is btw indeed mostly automagical. Droids and unmanned transport systems deal mostly with distribution of wares. We see in clone wars that even super dreadnoughts use high speed automatic maglev train system to distribute supplies within the ship, including automatic loading and unloading. 

 

And for your attack pattern against coruscant: Jup, this was used more than once, Thrawn went even so far to deploy cloaked asteroids against coruscant to force them to permanently raise the planetary shield and have trouble to accept landing requests of all those thousands of ships to feed the city planet. 

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Absolutely, but as mentioned if is just 5 days from the center of the galaxy to some rundown shithole like tatooine on x1. 15 days on x3.

36 hours on x1 are on a x4 are still just 6 days. Hyperspace lanes are fast, especially within the core even with those x3 bulk freighter engines, and those can deal with already close to 100,000 metric tons.

100,000 tons... OK.

That's as many as 25000 of those bulk freighters that have to unload every day, day after day.

We'll be generous and cut the turnaround time down to 10 days. That means that just to FEED Coruscant, you'd need 250,000 of those biggest bulk freighters, and the means to queue up, direct, and unload 25000 of them every day. .

Personally, if I wanted to cripple any government based on Coruscant, I'd ignore all the other objectives and work on a force of long-endurance hyperspace-capable drone/droid starfighters, and deploy the carriers in deep interstellar space where no one ever looks. Send the fighters off to lurk, engage bulk freighters at vulnerable moments, harass the infrastructure at the agri-worlds, snarl traffic, get the escorts chasing their tails, etc. I might never stop enough food to cause any real damage, but one trillion people worried about whether they'll have food next week and constant sensationalist media coverage would do the damage for me.

 

Bulk freighters are by no means the biggest freighters. The action VI transport bulk freighter should be iirc Sil 5 with its 125m length. Loading and unloading is btw indeed mostly automagical. Droids and unmanned transport systems deal mostly with distribution of wares. We see in clone wars that even super dreadnoughts use high speed automatic maglev train system to distribute supplies within the ship, including automatic loading and unloading.

So the droids are able to load and unload the ships or containers instantly? That's what I meant by "magic". It still takes time to load the cargo, get the ship through local traffic at the agri-planet, get the ship through local traffic at Coruscant, unload the ship, and so on. Unless you can teleport the cargo off the ship and into the Coruscant distribution network, the process isn't instant. That's why you need to account for a lot more time than just the hyperspace journey.

We can keep talking about bigger ships, but the bigger the ship, the longer it takes to get it into dock and get it loaded and/or unloaded. There's only so much you can do with automation.

Edited by MaxKilljoy

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So, the thing that occurs to me here is that the polarization of super ultra rich and mega duper poor is probably higher on Coruscant than any other place in the galaxy, and certainly any other place that we humans have encountered or read about.

So, I would not be at all surprised to find that on the lower levels, they have to survive on food pills and minimal food-like items that are actually produced locally, using the sewage from the levels above. So, that could wipe out 90% or more of the need to import food from anywhere else.

That still leaves a hell of a lot of food to import, but again I suspect that they have efficiencies of scale and packing and production that have never been dreamed of here on this little planet.

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We can keep talking about bigger ships, but the bigger the ship, the longer it takes to get it into dock and get it loaded and/or unloaded. There's only so much you can do with automation.

10 days I can agree just fine too. And I never wanted to imply that it happens instantons, just more advanced that the usually amazon distributions, which take ~9 hours from ordering to getting your product delivered to your post box. And as you are aware the whole upper level of coruscant is in many regards a giant spaceport. Even high security areas like the senate district and jedi temple were full of landing platforms suitable for even heavy stuff like an action VI freighter. Not that the commercial spaceports would be better suited to distribute goods via the public transport systems of the city. So it not like goods need to travel thousands of kilometers after arriving on one of the countess spaceports and logistic centers. It more of an unending stream of mostly outmated ships, cargo unloaders and tractor beams, trains and droids. The planet itself is described as a giant machine on more than one occasion. With food reserves for months as well iirc. 

 

So, the thing that occurs to me here is that the polarization of super ultra rich and mega duper poor is probably higher on Coruscant than any other place in the galaxy, and certainly any other place that we humans have encountered or read about.

So, I would not be at all surprised to find that on the lower levels, they have to survive on food pills and minimal food-like items that are actually produced locally, using the sewage from the levels above. So, that could wipe out 90% or more of the need to import food from anywhere else.

That still leaves a hell of a lot of food to import, but again I suspect that they have efficiencies of scale and packing and production that have never been dreamed of here on this little planet.

 

Try cannibalism instead of food pills if you are talking about the lowest undercity levels of coruscant. Hey at least we did not (yet) hear of rakghouls on coruscant, unlike on Taris and some other worlds ;-)

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Not sure what the variance is, but there's no such thing as 9-hour delivery from anyone here.  The best you can count on is getting something on the next business day if you're willing to pay a very steep premium.  And yes, this is in the continental US.

 

(Setting aside pizza, Chinese, and sub shops that deliver food in the usual time frame.)

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Not sure what the variance is, but there's no such thing as 9-hour delivery from anyone here.  The best you can count on is getting something on the next business day if you're willing to pay a very steep premium.  And yes, this is in the continental US.

 

(Setting aside pizza, Chinese, and sub shops that deliver food in the usual time frame.)

 

Amazon "same-day" should be available for some of the major US cities, same for major urban area in europe. Order till noon, get it same day with 9 PM the last possible delivery date. Anything outside of urban centers are naturally out of luck. Anyone not a prime member pays about 10 bucks for same day deliveries. And I am not sure what you are calling a very steep premium in context that the old "next day" deliveries were super cheap already and for 'free' even for amazon prime members. 

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Not sure what the variance is, but there's no such thing as 9-hour delivery from anyone here.  The best you can count on is getting something on the next business day if you're willing to pay a very steep premium.  And yes, this is in the continental US.

 

(Setting aside pizza, Chinese, and sub shops that deliver food in the usual time frame.)

 

Amazon "same-day" should be available for some of the major US cities, same for major urban area in europe. Order till noon, get it same day with 9 PM the last possible delivery date. Anything outside of urban centers are naturally out of luck. Anyone not a prime member pays about 10 bucks for same day deliveries. And I am not sure what you are calling a very steep premium in context that the old "next day" deliveries were super cheap already and for 'free' even for amazon prime members.

A delivery option that only works in a handful of major cities, at a premium, for small items, is not a good model for bulk shipping of food across many lightyears.

(And as an aside, there's very little that goes on in "major cities" that I give a fig about as long as it stays there and doesn't mess with my life.)

FedEx Standard Overnight from some test origins to me is about $80, and there is no "same day" service. UPS's site doesn't give quotes/estimates.

Edited by MaxKilljoy

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Well I'll speak for my own character.

I don't need credits as much as I need freedom. The moment I feel safe and can actually live a normal life a inquisitor shows up on my doorstep threatening me to join him in servitude or die. I've had to make friends some of them I really like some I have to live with the fact that however their quirks they will never turn me in. I've in turn had to help them with their woes I mean how can I not. They have made it so I don't have to fear going to sleep hoping someone doesn't attack me. Somehow along the way I've made a lot of money but it means nothing to me except for the occasional food, supplies and lodging I don't really need it. I better get back to listening to the force I need to keep an eye into the future my friends need a heads up if anyone is to show up on our doorstep.

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Really puts into perspective how important agriworlds are.

 

Which is why I made one up in case my SW GM wants to play

 

Never hurts to be prepared. Some notable agriworlds.

 

Core: Broest, Chandrila, Salliche, Ruan, Yulant,

Mid-Rim: Agriworld-2079,

Outer Rim/Corporate Sector: Orron III, Ukio

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After another session today (3rd all together), I again ask about how to keep the players hungry. I downloaded the ship operation pdf to help take money away but man way too many credits in this game making players RICH!! And these players, kinda stuck with them, play the same way for 30 years!!! "All greedy misrss. You pay I am not paying. No you pay I am not paying. When getting a job its ALWAYS how much? Thats it? Oh no we dont work for that. We need more. Never satisfied with pay, loot ir reward. And like ALWAYS with too much loot, ojay we want the best armor, best weapons, best damage, best defense, best etc. Always going for the IMBA!!! Way way way too many credits in this game and not enough take away unless stolen or destroyed. Cant make players rich, they but black market highest price stuff. Every item, bounty, ship becomes trivial.

Edited by BlackOpsBob

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I highly doubt Ecumenopolis are totally without any self-sufficiency.  Even in todays technology and culture we have Vertical farms in the middle of the city.  Also many Sci-FI novels have Algea vats, and even Protien vats when waste gets recycled, processsed and reused and powered by anaerobic digestors

 

In my game, the players have gained about 250xp.  they are not longer "Hungry" but they still don't have enough to do speculative trading and fill their ships cargo hold without putting a loan on the ship.  Most of the time for any pure cargo run I put a flat rate on the "profit" that includes the deduction of fees and refueling.  i really don't want to turn in the game into bookkeeping.  The next part of the adventure the players will be given a ship with a lot of problems and while providing transportation to a Traveling Troupe and band they are going to have to make a profit doing cargo runs to upgrade and repair the ship

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After another session today (3rd all together), I again ask about how to keep the players hungry. I downloaded the ship operation pdf to help take money away but man way too many credits in this game making players RICH!! And these players, kinda stuck with them, play the same way for 30 years!!! "All greedy misrss. You pay I am not paying. No you pay I am not paying. When getting a job its ALWAYS how much? Thats it? Oh no we dont work for that. We need more. Never satisfied with pay, loot ir reward. And like ALWAYS with too much loot, ojay we want the best armor, best weapons, best damage, best defense, best etc. Always going for the IMBA!!! Way way way too many credits in this game and not enough take away unless stolen or destroyed. Cant make players rich, they but black market highest price stuff. Every item, bounty, ship becomes trivial.

 

Then you need to take the simple route: talk to them, away from the game, out of character. Tell them that your campaign is not about getting Scrooge McDuck piles of money, but it's about the adventure, about the story. Tell them to knock that S off.

 

As for always finding the best armor and so on? Who controls the market. Sure, they have the money, but you have the final say. "Yeah, pity that the Black Market here doesn't have a fully modded BFG 9000 available for purchase. Now about that bus full of kidnapped orphans. . . ."

 

They're always bargaining for better credits for doing jobs? I hope they back up that with a Face doing all of the talking. Otherwise, they're getting jacked left right and center. Their equipment is costing them significantly above MSRP and the "Half now, half on completion" jobs are not paying out upon completion.

 

On the other hand your sessions can always go like this:

Player: "We wont take a job that pays less than a million credits"

GM: "Well looking over the job notices, the best offers you see will pay for gas and tolls."

Player: "That's too low! We wont take the job!"

GM: "Well, I guess that wraps up the session for tonight. Shall we get in a game of Carcassonne before we all go home?"

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My players have around 30,000 credits now coupled with a small flotilla of stock light freighters and starfighters they have managed to acquire over the past couple years worth of adventures.   They are well geared, but I have still managed to crank up the difficulty of their encounters in order to keep them challenged; but still allow them to stomp some lesser adversaries in order to have them feel as though they have grown from a motley assortment of criminals into a dangerous kill squad. 

 

When our campaign started they worked for a crime boss and did what they could not to upset him while still getting paid to complete the arduous jobs handed out to their crew.  So many adventures later they have managed to expand their horizons. They own a small hole in the wall style cantina on Nar Shaddaa, they're preparing to meet with a Hutt clan to negotiate permission to bring narcotics into Hutt space to sell, and are beginning to wonder if they've the skill and resources to kill their current employer and take his holdings as their own.

 

Suddenly 30k credits isn't quite enough to buy and or tweak out the hardware they're going to need to topple a crime boss who controls his own sizable shadow port.  

 

It's all in how you balance your story and game and the options you give your players to operate at a higher level once they've earned the right to.

Edited by ClavainRS

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After another session today (3rd all together), I again ask about how to keep the players hungry. I downloaded the ship operation pdf to help take money away but man way too many credits in this game making players RICH!! And these players, kinda stuck with them, play the same way for 30 years!!! "All greedy misrss. You pay I am not paying. No you pay I am not paying. When getting a job its ALWAYS how much? Thats it? Oh no we dont work for that. We need more. Never satisfied with pay, loot ir reward. And like ALWAYS with too much loot, ojay we want the best armor, best weapons, best damage, best defense, best etc. Always going for the IMBA!!! Way way way too many credits in this game and not enough take away unless stolen or destroyed. Cant make players rich, they but black market highest price stuff. Every item, bounty, ship becomes trivial.

 

Then you need to take the simple route: talk to them, away from the game, out of character. Tell them that your campaign is not about getting Scrooge McDuck piles of money, but it's about the adventure, about the story. Tell them to knock that S off.

 

As for always finding the best armor and so on? Who controls the market. Sure, they have the money, but you have the final say. "Yeah, pity that the Black Market here doesn't have a fully modded BFG 9000 available for purchase. Now about that bus full of kidnapped orphans. . . ."

 

They're always bargaining for better credits for doing jobs? I hope they back up that with a Face doing all of the talking. Otherwise, they're getting jacked left right and center. Their equipment is costing them significantly above MSRP and the "Half now, half on completion" jobs are not paying out upon completion.

 

On the other hand your sessions can always go like this:

Player: "We wont take a job that pays less than a million credits"

GM: "Well looking over the job notices, the best offers you see will pay for gas and tolls."

Player: "That's too low! We wont take the job!"

GM: "Well, I guess that wraps up the session for tonight. Shall we get in a game of Carcassonne before we all go home?"

 

 

Sadly I have game with these same guys for over 30 years.  They dont change.  On one hand the RPGs say let your players shine, on the other hand you have to have balance and challenge.  These guys always play the same.  Power hungry.  I want to be the most powerful player at the table.  We want to kill EVERYTHING.  We dont take mouth/direction from anyone.  They play like idiots.  They always have,  Its never been Roleplay but Roll play.  After I spend $100s on books and take weeks to prep, I finish each session with, yeah, just need to TPK them or beat them down every session until they get it.  Which they wont.  For some reason any game non DnD or Powers and Perils and they just take a who the F cares approach, and once again I stop running games and just them play DnD on their own.

 

In the 3 games we played I have said in game and in meta that "the Hutts" are in control.  They control the banks, the control the flow.  You want to torch warehouses?  That will probably get Imperial Attention even the small garrison.  You want to just shoot people?  You wont be welcome backed.  Brawls in bars okay, shoot em up every time gun fire with clientele around?  You think they want you cowboys coming back again and again?  You want to run your own smuggling ring?  You think they will let you move in on their turf?  Things like that I ask.  I am not against it but I always say actions have consequences. 

Edited by BlackOpsBob

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