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Bludgeon

Ancient Oak's starting life

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Just happened to randomly read the character card, I actually believe you would actually start with 4 cones but a life value of 5, as when your life value increases you do not gain a life by default.

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Just happened to randomly read the character card, I actually believe you would actually start with 4 cones but a life value of 5, as when your life value increases you do not gain a life by default.

Exactly why I was unsure how this one works.

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Hmmm this is interesting.. At the start of the game you start with life counters = to your life value (the number printed on your character card) the Ancient Oak starts the game with 1 Growth token on your character card and for each Growth token the increase your The Ancient Oak life value by 1 (+1 to the number printed on your character card). So because its the "start of the game" then can the Ancient Oak gain the Growth token first then take life counters = to his life value which will be +1 now. Or does the Ancient Oak have to take life counters before adding the Growth token.. Or does this all just happen at the same time at the start of the game?

 

Now in the base rules it does list a order of steps you do at start of game but gaining counters is around step 8 where as in the Woodlands rules its step 5? and it says you just add the steps to the base game, so step 5 in the base game is draw characters and choose one basically, so this works with the Woodlands step 5 when added to the base game. So I suppose in step 5 if you use a Woodland character you gain your counters? so the Ancient Oak will gain the Growth token before the life counters = to its life value.

 

Does this make sense or am I just rowing my raft up the storm river without rolling to move?

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Went and read both rules, two thoughts:

Step 8 of core game setup is worded as many life counters are printed on the character card into play, pretty explicit.

Additionally when it says these steps for the woodlands are added to set up, it seems to me as if they would go after all the steps in the core game are followed, not mixed together simultaneously. Hence you wouldn't set up anything woodland, including tokens, until after the core game is set up and you have already placed life counters well before getting to step 5 of woodland setup.

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Page 4 Woodlands rules:

 

Setup
When playing with The Woodland expansion, add
the following steps to the base game’s setup:

 

"Add" does that mean add after or add before or add together?

 

Plus the base game rule:

 

Special Ability vs. Rules

 

In any instance where a special ability or effect is at a variance
with the basic rules, the special ability or effect always
overrides the rules.

 

I think this is at a variance with the base rules.

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Add: I.E. additionally, or in addition to. Not mixed together with.

The Woodlands setup phase order has to be added in phase order or go before the base setup because it does not make any sense otherwise take The Highlands rules:

 

When playing with The Highland expansion, add the following

steps to the base game’s setup:

1. Shuffle the new Character, Adventure, and Spell Cards into

their respective decks.

 

And the Base Rules:

 

Game Setup

1. The board is unfolded and placed in the centre of the

playing area.

2. The Adventure Cards are shuffled and placed facedown

beside the board. These form the Adventure deck.

3. The Spell Cards are shuffled and placed facedown beside

the board. These form the Spell deck.

4. The Talisman and Purchase Cards are placed faceup beside

the board.

5. One player takes the character cards, shuffles them, and

deals one, facedown, to each player. (Alternative rule: If

all players agree, players who want more selection may be

dealt three character cards each, and then choose which

one of those three characters they wish play. The other

characters not chosen are returned to the box and may be

available if a character is killed.)

6. Each player places his character card faceup in front of

him. This card is the character the player will play during

the game. A player’s character card, Objects, Followers,

counters, and other game components form his play area.

The diagram on page 5 shows an example of a player’s

play area. It also shows how to lay out the character and

record all possessions during play.

 

Now if you do the Highlands steps after all the core steps then no-one will ever get to draw a Highlands Character (which is plainly not the case) because step 1 of the Highlands setup shuffles the new characters into the character deck.

 

So the steps must be added in phase order or all expansion steps must go before the core given the Woodlands and Highlands rules about setup are worded the same saying "add the following steps to the base game’s setup".

Edited by Uvatha

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Jesus Christ man whatever lol

Don't know what Jesus has to do with it, unless and this is a happy thought "you can play Talisman in Heaven" :)

 

Your "whatever lol" comment though is a plain attempt too trivialize my before statement, but really if you had something serious to add you should just of done so instead of this petty communication.

 

At least you can try to explain why you think these start game steps for Woodlands go after the core ones even though it makes the Highlands steps at start of game rather pointless (if the players cannot even draw Highland characters). Or are you now saying that you concede the point and see your before error, n which case why not just state as much without getting offensive and such?

Edited by Uvatha

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Nah I'm saying you will seemingly spend endless amounts of time and effort to come up with something that you feel proves you're right but to me doesn't prove anything, and for trivial points it's exhausting to watch and I'm checking out on that, I really don't care enough to put any more thought into it.

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Nah I'm saying you will seemingly spend endless amounts of time and effort to come up with something that you feel proves you're right but to me doesn't prove anything, and for trivial points it's exhausting to watch and I'm checking out on that, I really don't care enough to put any more thought into it.

Explain why it doesn't prove anything then? because its preatty clear cut at the moment. More likely you know you can't so you plead a form of indifference because you can't bear being proven wrong, otherwise you would of.

I'm happy leaving my last point stand unless anyone else would like to add more on the subject.

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Exactly what I'm talking about.

And yet you still don't explain why "to you" it does not prove anything. This is a Talisman rule dissussion after all :).

Edited by Uvatha

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How do you make it stop

Well how about explaining why "to you" my before post does not prove anything in regards to this rule issue, That would be a good step forward instead of this constant adolescent gibberish or (and this is a good thought) just don't re-post if you don't have any extra "on topic" remark to make.

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How do you make it stop

Well how about explaining why "to you" my before post does not prove anything in regards to this rule issue, That would be a good step forward instead of this constant adolescent gibberish or (and this is a good thought) just don't re-post if you don't have any extra "on topic" remark to make.

Hey, fellow robot, I agree with you but it's not easy to argue with a joker.

Sorry, couldn't resist... :)

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How do you make it stop

Well how about explaining why "to you" my before post does not prove anything in regards to this rule issue, That would be a good step forward instead of this constant adolescent gibberish or (and this is a good thought) just don't re-post if you don't have any extra "on topic" remark to make.

Indeed you could benefit from your own advice.

Every time the ancient oak gets a growth token, it does not gain a life when it's life value goes up as a result, just like any other time a characters life value increases. The fact that it gains a growth token at the beginning of the game doesn't matter. It does not gain a growth token AND a life despite your burning desire to be right and force it so by mish mashing things in a contorted way. The rules clearly say add as many life tokens are on the card at setup. It's plain as day. I stopped trying to reason with you because half the time I can't follow what you're saying. I am going to digress before I get rude about it, but that's the truth, at times you just go on and on and it doesn't make sense, and you start trying to use rules from the highland about the woodland, why would I even try about something as trivial as one life for one character. Who cares, and thusly I say, Jesus Christ whatever.

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How do you make it stop

Well how about explaining why "to you" my before post does not prove anything in regards to this rule issue, That would be a good step forward instead of this constant adolescent gibberish or (and this is a good thought) just don't re-post if you don't have any extra "on topic" remark to make.
Indeed you could benefit from your own advice.

Every time the ancient oak gets a growth token, it does not gain a life when it's life value goes up as a result, just like any other time a characters life value increases. The fact that it gains a growth token at the beginning of the game doesn't matter. It does not gain a growth token AND a life despite your burning desire to be right and force it so by mish mashing things in a contorted way. The rules clearly say add as many life tokens are on the card at setup. It's plain as day. I stopped trying to reason with you because half the time I can't follow what you're saying. I am going to digress before I get rude about it, but that's the truth, at times you just go on and on and it doesn't make sense, and you start trying to use rules from the highland about the woodland, why would I even try about something as trivial as one life for one character. Who cares, and thusly I say, Jesus Christ whatever.

You are right about the base rules saying in the "start the game" section, that you take as many counters as your life value, the life value being the number printed on the character card. And your also right about life value increase during play (that being you do not gain a life counter when your life value goes up) But the Ancient Oak says when it has a growth counter on the character card you increase its Life Value by 1 and you start the game with one growth counter so in effect your life value will be 5 at the start of the game even though you have only a 4 printed on your character card- which is at total odds with what the base rules say happens when you take life counters at the start of the game.

Now in the base rule there is also a number of Golden Rules "which it also says supersedes all others" one of the Golden Rules states that "In any instance where a special ability or effect is at a variance with the basic rules, the special ability or effect always overrides the rules" Now the Ancient Oak growth counter is a special ability from the character and also it is a effect (a effect being anything that has a impact on a card or a rule in play) so according to this Golden Rule the Ancient Oak growth counter will supersede the base "start of the game" rule of putting only the number of life printed on your character card because they are obviously at odds with each-other. Thus the Ancient Oak will start with 5 life and 5 life value not 4 life and 5 life value.

Plus it also makes perfect sense because at the printing and design of the base set no one had any idea that a later set will add cards or effects that would increase stat value, thus of course there is no mention of this in the base rules, To point - that's why the Golden Rules where made for that reason.

And I did mention this Golden Rule before and also the differences with the Highlands and Woodlands setup wording does also prove my point.

Edited by Uvatha

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Man I'm not even reading that essay I'm so checked out on this gbye

Well its length was part because i wanted to explain it in depth so there would not be any misunderstanding. I really think because of that no one else could really blame me given how this rule discussion has gone :). But of course its totally upto you to take part in the rule discussion or not, no one is forcing you to read the posts or even reply to them.

Edited by Uvatha

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