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Marshal8

Destroyed Systems

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I'm in the opposite camp. I say that you can't do a mission in the Dagobah System if there's no Dagobah System on the board. The Destroyed System marker completely obscures the system and the name. There is a reason you're hiding the system. It's now "Destroyed System" as far as I'm concerned.

 

And I'm very sure your camp is wrong.

 

Why?

 

Because if your camp's interpretation is correct, it means that the optimal Imperial player strategy should be: blow up Dagobah as soon as possible.

 

It doesn't matter whether the Rebel Base is or isn't there. What matters is preventing the Seek Yoda mission.

 

The effects of this are pretty clear: if the Seek Yoda mission cannot be resolved, the Rebel player:

  • does not gain the 1 re-roll per round ability (Seek Yoda)
  • never gets a 3/3 Leader with 5 Mission Icons (Luke Skywalker (Jedi))
  • can never eliminate Palpatine and Vader (Return of the Jedi)
  • has one less 2-point source (Return of the Jedi)

... and so it is in the best interest of the Imperial player to blow up Dagobah regardless of whatever the Rebel player does.

 

As a consequence, you end up with a situation where the Rebel player's optimal counter-strategy is completely ignoring Dagobah's existence and never recruiting Luke.

 

Is that really the kind of Star Wars game you want?

 

I disagree with you completely.  I'm not talking about the initial question about destroyed systems, but what the imperial strategy should be.

 

There are 3 or 4 system specific missions, and all of them are fairly powerful.

Using your logic would mean the Imps would want to blow up multiple planets at the start of the game.  This would likely occupy the DS for the entire game, and open the Rebels up to a 3 or 4 point objective gain at some point.

 

But lets say we simply consider the Dagobah system and it's mission.

Starting the game and destroying Dagobah would require a lot from the Imperial player.  Actions to move the DS, actions to acquire and use the laser.  You'd be throwing away half your actions in the first couple turns just to complete this objective.

 

This is time when every action is critical, and the DS is better used to bully the heck out of the Rebels while they don't have a way to stop it.

 

You might be preventing them from upgrading 1 leader, but you are using a lot of actions to do it, giving the rebels a lot of unopposed actions early in the game, giving up the use of your DS while it's indestructible, and giving the rebels at least 1 objective point.

Ensuring an objective point for the enemy while also giving them a big advantage in early action efficiency and failing to use your unstoppable force is just poor play all around.  You choreograph that kind of move against a rebel player with any kind of sense and they are going to run you over early on, securing other objectives asap. 

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I'd like to ask in regard to space combat in a destroyed system. If both fleets are carrying ground troops and combat is initiated. For instance the empire is already in a destroyed system with ground units and the rebels activate the destroyed system with ships and ground units. At the end of battle are ground units destroyed with respect to ships with carrying capacity are destroyed?

 

From the rules it appears ground units can enter the system but no ground combat can take place. So if there was a space combat where both rebel and imperial ground units are in the system, combat would only take place in the space theater. Once the battle is resolved then any ground units that can't be attached to a ship is immediately destroyed.

 

Would this be the correct way of handling this situation?

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Has anybody asked FFG? Are they not taking questions at this time?

I did and got a response saying they're working on errata now and would release it as soon as it's ready.

 

 

I'd like to ask in regard to space combat in a destroyed system. If both fleets are carrying ground troops and combat is initiated. For instance the empire is already in a destroyed system with ground units and the rebels activate the destroyed system with ships and ground units. At the end of battle are ground units destroyed with respect to ships with carrying capacity are destroyed?

 

From the rules it appears ground units can enter the system but no ground combat can take place. So if there was a space combat where both rebel and imperial ground units are in the system, combat would only take place in the space theater. Once the battle is resolved then any ground units that can't be attached to a ship is immediately destroyed.

 

Would this be the correct way of handling this situation?

 

 

Yes, ground units would be destroyed down to the reduced carrying capacity.

Edited by DyingTickles

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Because if your camp's interpretation is correct, it means that the optimal Imperial player strategy should be: blow up Dagobah as soon as possible.

 

As a consequence, you end up with a situation where the Rebel player's optimal counter-strategy is completely ignoring Dagobah's existence and never recruiting Luke.

I was worried about this scenario but I'm not anymore, and you just identified the reason why. If it looks like the Empire is pursuing a "Kill Dagobah First" strategy, the Rebels simply employ the counter you described above and the Empire is wasting a lot of actions for virtually no benefit. Sure the Rebels won't get access to Jedi Luke, but there's a not-insignificant chance the same thing would happen anyway due to card draws. Therefore, it is not really in the Empire's interest to follow such a strategy.

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The blowey uppy template covers the name of the system.

 

'Component limitations' section states: "If players run out of a marker type, use a suitable substitute, such as a coin". You can destroy more than 3 system if you burn through the project deck and reshuffle it. Theoretically.

I don't have the game yet, but is it really so big that it can cover both the planet and the name every time? : )

 

 

The effects of this are pretty clear: if the Seek Yoda mission cannot be resolved, the Rebel player:

  • does not gain the 1 re-roll per round ability (Seek Yoda)
  • never gets a 3/3 Leader with 5 Mission Icons (Luke Skywalker (Jedi))
  • can never eliminate Palpatine and Vader (Return of the Jedi)
  • has one less 2-point source (Return of the Jedi)

I agree with your post in general (and I argued along the same lines on BGG forums: "Star Wars game without Jedi Luke? Meh"), but just wanted to point out that Luke's presence for 2 reputation with 'Return of the Jedi' objective is not necessary. He only gives you eliminate-the-Empire-leader bonus.

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I'm in the opposite camp. I say that you can't do a mission in the Dagobah System if there's no Dagobah System on the board. The Destroyed System marker completely obscures the system and the name. There is a reason you're hiding the system. It's now "Destroyed System" as far as I'm concerned.

 

And I'm very sure your camp is wrong.

 

Why?

 

Because if your camp's interpretation is correct, it means that the optimal Imperial player strategy should be: blow up Dagobah as soon as possible.

 

It doesn't matter whether the Rebel Base is or isn't there. What matters is preventing the Seek Yoda mission.

 

The effects of this are pretty clear: if the Seek Yoda mission cannot be resolved, the Rebel player:

  • does not gain the 1 re-roll per round ability (Seek Yoda)
  • never gets a 3/3 Leader with 5 Mission Icons (Luke Skywalker (Jedi))
  • can never eliminate Palpatine and Vader (Return of the Jedi)
  • has one less 2-point source (Return of the Jedi)

... and so it is in the best interest of the Imperial player to blow up Dagobah regardless of whatever the Rebel player does.

 

As a consequence, you end up with a situation where the Rebel player's optimal counter-strategy is completely ignoring Dagobah's existence and never recruiting Luke.

 

Is that really the kind of Star Wars game you want?

 

 

I think Jedi Luke is slightly overrated.  He is the best leader in the game, and the best rebel leader by a large margin, but how often is this going to make a major impact?  He is basically +1 space and ground tactics cards, and +1 dice on missions.  The reroll is nice but with each die having a 66% success rate, there will be turns were it is not used (you roll the dice and get results you need so no need to reroll).  There will be turns you do use it and it doesn't improve your results.  There will also be turns where you do use it and it swings things in your favor, but that won't be every turn.  It also takes an action to train him, so the question is will the the resources spent Seeking Yoda (Luke going on the mission) be made up by Luke being slightly stronger later in the game (Succeeding at a mission that you would otherwise fail or obtaining an objective that you couldn't have with Farmboy Luke) or is Luke going on another mission now and succeeding more useful long term.

 

3 Intel is a big deal since there are only two other leaders with 3 Intel (1 Rebel) and the 3 Intel missions are very good, so that's a positive.  3s are always a big deal.

 

Also since RotJ is a third tier Objective, by the time you play it, a 2 Reputation gain will be game ending a lot of the time, unless the Rebellion is doing very poorly.  Who cares if the Emperor is Dead if the Empire is Dead?  I suspect a lot of its value is that if you might have it the Empire may not commit Vader or the Emperor to a battle that can use those 5 tactic cards for fear of giving the Rebels an opportunity to gain 2 Reputation.  Of course that increases the chances of the Rebels gaining other objective points.

 

As I have said elsewhere, destroying Dagobah may be the right choice in some games and everything else being equal, its more useful than destroying say Tatooine (you know, if the Empire just used the Death Star on Tatoonie in that first film, they would have saved themselves a lot of headache).  But I do not view it as always an optimal choice.  There needs to be reasons outside of preventing a mission that may happen to destroy Dagobah.

 

So to sum up, Jedi Luke is very good, but not the Omega solution that a lot of people worry about.   I do not think that going out of your way to keep him as Farmboy Luke will be an optimal strategy.

 

Oh yeah, I am not sure which way the destroyed system/mission will fall when they FAQ it.  I can see it going either way and i am okay with either outcome.  But I agree with you that more options to get Jedi Luke is probably the right call.

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I would say that any mission card that targets a system that the super laser was used on can not take affect as the laser destroyes the "SYSTEM" and not just 1 planet.

 

so Luke wont find Yoda as the system (not 1 planet) has been destroyed as stated on the laser card.

 

so when u place the destroyed system down from that point on there is no system there for the purpose of missions.

Edited by Nazull

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I just got the game and all seems fairly easy to understand rules-wise except this issue. I don't know which way I fall as both sides make good points. Right now RAW tells me I CAN (as, like with most games, this is a "can't" ruleset).

However, I'll point this out :

In Ep 4, Luke and Ben were essentially given the mission of taking Artoo to Alderaan. Despite it being blown away, they TECHNICALLY completed their mission (of course the mission parameters changed as soon as they arrived).

(shrugs)

Seems pointless to run this debate on and on as FFG are working on the FAQ.

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I just got the game and all seems fairly easy to understand rules-wise except this issue. I don't know which way I fall as both sides make good points. Right now RAW tells me I CAN (as, like with most games, this is a "can't" ruleset).

However, I'll point this out :

In Ep 4, Luke and Ben were essentially given the mission of taking Artoo to Alderaan. Despite it being blown away, they TECHNICALLY completed their mission (of course the mission parameters changed as soon as they arrived).

(shrugs)

Seems pointless to run this debate on and on as FFG are working on the FAQ.

 

So your argument against has nothing to do with the game mechanics at all?

 

FYI, their mission was to bring the Death Star plans to Leia's father who was on Alderaan when it was blown up. So they DID fail.

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Received a replay from Corey on the question this morning. Very generous of him to reply. Here is the response:

 

Hello Jason,

 
Destroyed systems retain their names. Missions and action cards can still be attempted and resolved in Destroyed system. 
 
I hope this answers your question!
- Corey Konieczka
VP of Research & Design
Fantasy Flight Games

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I'm assuming this information will very quickly be spreading around the Internet, but I thought I'd chime in here. I received a reply to an email that I sent to FFG with this question:

 

Destroyed systems retain their names. Missions and action cards can still be attempted and resolved in Destroyed systems. This includes the Seek Yoda mission card.

 

I hope this answers your question!

 

-Corey Konieczka

VP of Research & Design

Fantasy Flight Games

 

 

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Hello David,

Destroyed systems retain their system name. For example, the “Seek Yoda” mission card be be resolved in the Dagobah system even if it is destroyed.

If this were not the case, then the Empire player could do really unthematic things, such as blow up Dagobah to prevent Jedi training. Since the Empire did not know where Yoda is, they would never be able to do this strategy. Thematically, I would assume that Yoda traveled to a different nearby planet.

I hope this answers your question!

- Corey Konieczka

VP of Research & Design

Fantasy Flight Games

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On a similar note, a buddy and I played this the other night for the first time.  I moved my DS into a system and blew it up.  Since it was my first time playing, I had left it without any fighter escorts.  After I blew up the system, my opponent played an objective card (I can't remember the name of it, maybe it was "Stolen Death Star Plans") that allowed him to move x/y wings into that system and try to blow up the death star.

 

I argued "You can't move your x/y wings into there because it's not a system anymore. There is no system."   He protested, I let him have it.

 

He also did some trick where, after it (the objective) was unsuccessful, he just put it back into his hand, and then immediately played it again.  That seemed wrong to me.

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On a similar note, a buddy and I played this the other night for the first time.  I moved my DS into a system and blew it up.  Since it was my first time playing, I had left it without any fighter escorts.  After I blew up the system, my opponent played an objective card (I can't remember the name of it, maybe it was "Stolen Death Star Plans") that allowed him to move x/y wings into that system and try to blow up the death star.

 

I argued "You can't move your x/y wings into there because it's not a system anymore. There is no system."   He protested, I let him have it.

 

He also did some trick where, after it (the objective) was unsuccessful, he just put it back into his hand, and then immediately played it again.  That seemed wrong to me.

 

Here are my comments:

1.  Death Star Plans does not allow you to move Xs and Ys into a system, something else needs to be able to do that (a system activation or a mission card)

2.  A Destroyed system is still a System.

3.  Yep it comes back to his hand if its not successful.  He doesn't get to play it again until after another round of combat has completed.

 

FFG actually has this card online.

death-star-plans.png

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He also did some trick where, after it (the objective) was unsuccessful, he just put it back into his hand, and then immediately played it again.  That seemed wrong to me.

 

It does go back to his hand, but he can't immediately play it again. The Rebel player is only allowed to play one objective card per combat, and one objective card per Refresh Phase.

 

Thanks to KoalaXav for pointing out my mistake. The Rules Reference actually addresses this card specifically: "If the Rebel player does not roll a <direct hit symbol>, he keeps the card and does not gain any reputation. The card can be used during a future combat round." So I was a little bit correct. He can't replay the card "immediately" but he can play it on the next combat round.

Edited by CNYGamer

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Gotcha. I don't think he used the Objective Card to move his fighters into that system.  I *think* he used a mission card to move 4 fighters from his base into the system with my DS. Then we fought a round of space combat.   When it failed (the first 2 times), he returned the objective card to his hand, and then he simply replayed it.  His interpretation was that he could do this:

 

-Space Battle (no damage to either side <4 fighters vs. Death Star>

-Trigger: Death Star Plans Objective Card.

-Result: no "boom" icons.  Returns Objective Card to hand.

-New Space Battle Round (no damage to either side <4 fighters vs. Death Star>

-new Trigger: plays his Death Star Plans Objective Card (2nd time).

-Result: no "boom" icons. Returns card to hand.

-New Space Battle Round (1 damage to rebel side <now 3 fighters vs. Death Star>

-New Trigger: plays his Death Star Plans Objective Card (3rd time.)

-Result: 1 "boom" icons. DS destroyed.

 

EDIT: edited language for clarity.

Edited by Rocmistro

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He also did some trick where, after it (the objective) was unsuccessful, he just put it back into his hand, and then immediately played it again.  That seemed wrong to me.

 

It does go back to his hand, but he can't immediately play it again. The Rebel player is only allowed to play one objective card per combat, and one objective card per Refresh Phase.

 

 

Ok this is where he went wrong. Good to know.  It seemed wrong to me at the time, but I didn't have a good enough handle on the rules to know where to look for it.

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It does go back to his hand, but he can't immediately play it again. The Rebel player is only allowed to play one objective card per combat, and one objective card per Refresh Phase.

True, but that doesn't mean you only get one attempt per combat. If Death Star Plans returns to your hand, it doesn't count as having been played. It counts as an objective once the death star is destroyed and you earn the points. So, you can try again as long as you have fighters left to make another pass (but only once each phase of space combat)

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Also remember that if your death star rolls 'booms', it can destroy starfighters. They count as red or black. Space tactics cards may also help with pest removal.

 

Right, but I didn't roll enough "booms", and I didn't have any leaders in that system :-(

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Right, but I didn't roll enough "booms", and I didn't have any leaders in that system :-(

You also have the option to bring a leader from your leader pool to the combat if you don't have any leaders with tactics valued in the system. (Handy to keep one in reserve)

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Hey all; my understanding is that Leaders are not destroyed- only ground units - and space battles still can occur. I guess that you could assume any carried ground units would be lost if the ship is destroyed!

Unless I missed it after reading all your posts, I still have one REALLY BIG question - What happens to the Rebel Base if the system it's in is destroyed??? I swear it says nothing at all in the rule books!?

What are your thoughts on this? Thanks, Steiner

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