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Marshal8

Destroyed Systems

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Ok, I know the rules backwards and forwards. But I cant figure this out.  If the dagobah system is destroyed.  Can you do a mission that targets the dagobah system like the one that trains luke.  Can you do the han action cards that lets you recruit chewy or lando if the bespin or kashykkk system is destroyed.

 

The rules dont say that you cannot do these missions. But Just wanting to be sure.

 

thanks for any imput.

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Ok, I know the rules backwards and forwards. But I cant figure this out.  If the dagobah system is destroyed.  Can you do a mission that targets the dagobah system like the one that trains luke.  Can you do the han action cards that lets you recruit chewy or lando if the bespin or kashykkk system is destroyed.

 

The rules dont say that you cannot do these missions. But Just wanting to be sure.

 

thanks for any imput.

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/206678-destroyed-system-clarification/

 

Already debated.  Undetermined.  The designer said they're working on the errata now.

 

EDIT:  Wait, you were involved in the debate in the other thread.  I'm curious why you would start a new one.

Edited by DyingTickles

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Page 7 of the Rules Reference reads as follows:

DESTROYED SYSTEMS
The “Superlaser Online” mission card can destroy an entire system.
When a system is destroyed, place a destroyed system marker in the
system and destroy all Rebel ground units in the system.
- Imperial ground units in the system are not automatically
destroyed. If the number of units that require transport exceed
the transport capacity of Imperial ships in the system, the
Imperial player must destroy units (of his choice) that exceed
his transport capacity.
- Leaders in destroyed systems are unaffected.
- Ground units can move into destroyed systems, but ground
battles cannot occur there. If the number of units that require
transport exceed the transport capacity of the player’s ships in
the system, the player must destroy the excess units.
- Space battles are resolved in destroyed systems as normal.
- Destroyed systems do not have loyalty and cannot be
subjugated.
 
While I agree this needs to be clarified, the way I read this is that the system still exists (because the planet is not the system).  It is the resources that have been destroyed.  I believe missions (like space battle) can still be resolved in destroyed systems.
Edited by Stone37

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I guess we need a clarification between Planet and System. In the original movie the Death Star destroyed a single planet, not an entire system.

 

The effect was the same though.  Earth is the only habitable planet in the Sol system.  Lets pretend for a minute that we've even colonized the moon.  DS comes along and blows up the Earth.  The moon now spirals into the depths of space or gets sucked into the sun.  The Sol system is effectively destroyed as there is no habitable planet.

 

Many Star Wars systems are exactly the same.  1 habitable, colonized planet in the system.  Sometimes a system doesn't even have a habitable planet, and the only civilization is on a moon orbiting one of the planets.

 

Destroying the only place of importance in the system effectively destroys the system for all intents and purposes.

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I dont know if I agree with that. For conversation sake, let's say Saturn is an inhabited planet as well as Earth. So the DS shows, blasts earth to little bits. Now according to what you said, Saturn is also trashed? I'm no scientist, but that doesn't seem right.

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Also, there's no point in debating system vs planet because the rules never reference planet. It always says system. Planet is not part of the game's terminology as far as I know.

Can anyone cite a single example of the rules or a card in the game using he wore planet? If not, the distinction is irrelevant where the game is concerned.

The question is not whether a planet counts as a system. The question is whether a system that is replaced with a Destroyed System marker still counts as a specific named system.

My belief is that it does not. Once the name no longer shows, the system no longer has a name. And while it's true there's nothing in the manual I can cite to prove this, there is another source I can cite that I think should be accepted as valid.

Han Solo: Our position is correct, except... no, Alderaan!

Luke: What do you mean? Where is it?

Han Solo: Thats what I'm trying to tell you, kid. It ain't there. It's been totally blown away.

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This clearly doesn't answer the question either but I keep wondering why this bullet point under "Systems" even exists. Seems they could have been way more direct if they were trying to answer the destroyed system/mission question.

 

"Each system not only represents the single planet depicted in the artwork, but also nearby moons, space stations, and other planets in the system."

 

Given though that under destroyed systems it states that "The "Superlaser Online" mission card can destroy an entire system" (emphasis mine) I'm not sure that the first quote is even relevant.

 

I can't imagine this never came up during play testing as it seems a very obvious issue. Hope someone at FFG can at least unofficially rule on this pre-FAQ release.

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I can really see this going either way.

I luckily havent had it come up.

But yeah, Kashyyk in particular is a popular target for blowing up, especially in the L2P set-up. I am also surprised the question was never asked in playtesting.

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I dont know if I agree with that. For conversation sake, let's say Saturn is an inhabited planet as well as Earth. So the DS shows, blasts earth to little bits. Now according to what you said, Saturn is also trashed? I'm no scientist, but that doesn't seem right.

But, it's not.

 

Dagobah had a hospitable planet, but nothing else in the system.  Blow up Dagobah planet, and Dagobah system is nothing but debris and uninhabitable rocks.  I don't think Yoda's mud hut would have protected him much.

 

Kashyyyk system is different as there is another planet and a moon orbiting that planet that are habitable.  But having a Wookiee uprising on Trandoshar would be silly, and despite the system still having a planet that you could phathom having loyalty with and production facilities (actually more likely than Kashyyyk really), the system is worthless once hit by the laser in the game.

 

I guess what I'm ultimately getting at is the game rules are the game rules.  Sense and logic don't always apply for the sake of having a game without 1 billion little what-if scenario rules.  One way or the other though, FFG needs to weigh in on this one.  Good thing is it looks like they know it.

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I dont know if I agree with that. For conversation sake, let's say Saturn is an inhabited planet as well as Earth. So the DS shows, blasts earth to little bits. Now according to what you said, Saturn is also trashed? I'm no scientist, but that doesn't seem right.

The superlaser online card says it blows up the entire system, so in your example, Saturn is also blown up.

 

It works more like Starkiller Base than it does the Death Star in this game.

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Going to reiterate a point i made earlier, but, what the hey.  

 

The blowey uppy template covers the name of the system.  I think that is your rule right there.  The name is no longer in play, so, the system is no longer a named system.  You blow up Dagobah, it is still a system, (possibly even a remote system), but, it is no longer Dagobah.  

 

I think the intent was displayed in teh size of the marker they give us.

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Going to reiterate a point i made earlier, but, what the hey.  

 

The blowey uppy template covers the name of the system.  I think that is your rule right there.  The name is no longer in play, so, the system is no longer a named system.  You blow up Dagobah, it is still a system, (possibly even a remote system), but, it is no longer Dagobah.  

 

I think the intent was displayed in teh size of the marker they give us.

That's how I see it as well.

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I guess I'm having a hard time separating the terms planet and system. I'm at work so I dont have my game with me, but I think I remember reading that a system was bordered by the thinner orange lines. So a system(as far as I understand), is made up of multiple planets. If you use the Death Star to destroy 1, then you can't do anything on any other planet in that system?

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The wording used is Systems and Regions.  A region is made up of four systems.  The word planet is NOT used in teh rule book or ref guide, EXCEPT in describing what a system is, (both on the board and how to think of it).  The picture of a planet, on the board, is a system.  When you get a chance look at the ref guide pp 12 & 14.

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The system still exists.  System specific missions can still be executed in the system.

 

There are very specific effects of having a destroyed system as listed on page 7 of the Rules Reference.  No ground battles.  No ground units above the current carrying capacity of the ships in the system.  No loyalty or subjugation (therefore no building or deploying units there).

 

If a card's effects violate those specific effects they cannot occur but otherwise they can.

 

Example: 

 

'Seek Yoda' -- Attach a Master Yoda ring to the leader and, if Luke resolves this mission, make him Jedi Luke.

 

There is nothing that is forbidden by the destroyed system effects.  Yoda can still be there.  He could have gotten on a ship, for example (he had to get there somehow).

 

'Support of Mon Calamari' -- Gain two loyalty or place 1 MCC on the build queue. 

 

Obviously you can't gain loyalty since this is specifically disallowed.  But you can gain a Cruiser -- it could have been in space at the time of destruction just like other ships in play that would survive 'Superlaser Online'.

 

'Wookie Uprising' -- Gain 1 loyalty and destroy 4-health worth of units in the system.

 

Again, no loyalty gained because that is specifically denied by the Destroyed System effects but there could be Wookies hanging around in their freighters or space stations and what-not that end up boarding Imperial ships and destroying the ground units on those ships or the ships themselves.

 

Aside from the Loyalty gains there is nothing to suggest things don't survive in the system enough to make at least some of the effects possible.

 

 

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The system still exists. System specific missions can still be executed in the system

That's one interpretation, and if you're going purely RAW, entirely justifiable, but we don't yet know for sure it's 100% in line with the developers intentions or else there wouldn't be two hot and heavy threads about it on this forum.

I'm in the opposite camp. I say that you can't do a mission in the Dagobah System if there's no Dagobah System on the board. The Destroyed System marker completely obscures the system and the name. There is a reason you're hiding the system. It's now "Destroyed System" as far as I'm concerned.

Obi-Wan failed to deliver the death star plans to Leia's father on Alderaan. In Han's own words "It ain't there!"

In your version, they'd just jettison R2-D2 into the asteroid field, ignore the TIE Fighter and the small moon it's flying toward and fly home, mission accomplished.

So until we have official word, your best solution is to agree on an interpretation with your opponent before starting the game.

It's clear it's not going to be resolved on this forum.

Edited by KoalaXav

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If it was the developers desire for you to not complete named missions in destroyed systems.  Seems like a major oversight. I am not sure how it did not come up.  Unless of course it was not there intent and they want you to follow the rules given for destroyed systems.  Until we know, I think you can do those missions.

Edited by Marshallmanna

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If it was the developers desire for you to not complete named missions in destroyed systems.  Seems like a major oversight. I am not sure how it did not come up.  Unless of course it was not there intent and they want you to follow the rules given for destroyed systems.  Until we know, I think you can do those missions.

Like somebody else pointed out, possibly in the other thread about this, the Rules Reference specifically references mission in the destroyed systems sections under the related topics list, yet the missions section doesn't mention destroyed systems.  I believe that it's simply missing a bullet point to prohibit missions requiring a named system if that system has been destroyed.

 

Since the rules don't actually state this, though, I explain the controversy to my opponent and let them make the decision.

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how many missions could there possible be that this affects?  Is yoda and chewie the only ones?  If you go by Raw (sort of) I would say these are allowed because destroyed systems do not affect leaders. 

And the reason being I would probably destroy Degobah every time just so they couldn't get the better Luck with a reroll. 

 

but most other missions are things where the system must have loyalty or units or something.  Even if its space units I'd say its ok, ground units obviously not.

 

This one does not bug me as much as the 2 Ion cannon one. 

Edited by KAGE13

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how many missions could there possible be that this affects?  Is yoda and chewie the only ones?  If you go by Raw (sort of) I would say these are allowed because destroyed systems do not affect leaders. 

And the reason being I would probably destroy Degobah every time just so they couldn't get the better Luck with a reroll. 

 

but most other missions are things where the system must have loyalty or units or something.  Even if its space units I'd say its ok, ground units obviously not.

 

This one does not bug me as much as the 2 Ion cannon one. 

I think there are 4 or so.  And if the number of times this could happen is why it bugs you, the ion cannon one is much less likely, isn't it?  I assume you're talking about the ion cannons negating the DS question on BGG.  There are only 3 ion cannons in the game, so that is possible in only one location each game and is unlikely to happen in that location as well.

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I'm in the opposite camp. I say that you can't do a mission in the Dagobah System if there's no Dagobah System on the board. The Destroyed System marker completely obscures the system and the name. There is a reason you're hiding the system. It's now "Destroyed System" as far as I'm concerned.

 

And I'm very sure your camp is wrong.

 

Why?

 

Because if your camp's interpretation is correct, it means that the optimal Imperial player strategy should be: blow up Dagobah as soon as possible.

 

It doesn't matter whether the Rebel Base is or isn't there. What matters is preventing the Seek Yoda mission.

 

The effects of this are pretty clear: if the Seek Yoda mission cannot be resolved, the Rebel player:

  • does not gain the 1 re-roll per round ability (Seek Yoda)
  • never gets a 3/3 Leader with 5 Mission Icons (Luke Skywalker (Jedi))
  • can never eliminate Palpatine and Vader (Return of the Jedi)
  • has one less 2-point source (Return of the Jedi)

... and so it is in the best interest of the Imperial player to blow up Dagobah regardless of whatever the Rebel player does.

 

As a consequence, you end up with a situation where the Rebel player's optimal counter-strategy is completely ignoring Dagobah's existence and never recruiting Luke.

 

Is that really the kind of Star Wars game you want?

Edited by Radon Antila

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