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shmitty

Anti-Triple-Tap Strategies

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The problem with changing how initiative is determined is it creates entirely new incentives for certain kinds of fleets. Deciding it based on number of ships (lowest chooses) might create some other unforseen circumstances such as giving preferential treatment to fleets focusing on larger ships to the exclusion of smaller ships (which already had been a problem in my local meta after wave 2 hit, although it seems to be restabilizing). I'm not necessarily opposed to discussion on the subject, but it seems unlikely FFG would change such a fundamental aspect of the pre-game.

 

If we were redoing Armada from the ground up (with a time machine!), I think an alternating first player system (I'm first, then you're first, etc.) might help with some of these problems but you'd need an entirely different way of doing objectives. I don't think that kind of change given the game state right now would work whatsoever, though.

Wouldn't this actually make the triple tap worse?  If you are second player with Demo and can definitely ensure last activation and then go first the next turn?

It would but only on segments where you're 2/1. On alternating 1/2 segments it makes it much basically impossible to pull off. It's imperfect, of course, but so are most suggestions for changes here.

If you wanted to make it iffier, opponents could roll/flip for first each turn, but you'll have games being decided by whether the coin/dice gods favored that one specific roll on a crucial turn. People don't tend to like that.

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Except I do the same thing to people with MC30's all the time. Its just not an immediate delete. Which, I'll grant, is worse.

Yeah a buddy of mine occasionally rolls out a Torp MC30 with Ordnance Experts, Expanded Launchers, and an Intel Officer. When he gets the double-arc jump on you with that thing it packs a wallop! Not as horrific as a decked-to-the-gills Clonisher, mind you, but still... oof.

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The scariest part of the triple tap seems to be the Intel Officer on the first swing, since it means that at least one of the 3 attacks won't be Braced (possibly 2 if it gets blown on the first attack). While I sometimes like to imagine that MC30s are almost as strong on the offense, it definitely doesn't wipe large ships off the board quite like an Intel Demolisher with Expanded Launchers can.

 

While I love theory-crafting possible solutions to the issue with Wave 2 tools, I'm really looking forward to how Flotillas shake this situation up. It'll be much harder to maintain a consistent activation advantage going into a tournament setting with such cheap activations floating around, which should help to alleviate the problem to some extent. Add that to the ability to use Flotillas as an obstruction, and I feel like all our talk about "covering your big ships" might actually amount to feasible anti-Demo strategies.

 

Of course, if I have a Glad I'll still spend the 10 points just to have it, but its boogeyman status may start to wane.

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Glad I - Intell Officer, Engine Techs, APT's, Demolisher

Raider I - Instigator

Raider I - Vader

Raider I

ISD I - Avenger

 

2xTie Fighter

 

389pts.

 

There are many ways of running a 5 ship demo list.

An 11 point bid and Vader re-rolls instead of Screed auto-crits isn't as scary, IMO, as a proper Demolisher build. And an ISD 1 is going to have a hard time clearing a path for the Demolisher.

I reckon a screen is the only way, within the current rule setup, to reliably stop Demolisher. And it's not really that reliable.

If you place your screen in the right way, Demolisher will have a tough choice to make. It can move last, INTO your screen, attack (and probably destroy) one of the small ships screening your flagship, but then it is faced with a tough choice. Does it move first next turn, up to your flagship, and attack it but then leave itself vulnerable for retaliation from your entire fleet? Or does it wait, suffering the damage dished out by your remaining screening elements (I'm thinking TRC90s and squadrons, hell, maybe a Yavaris, and in the future, flotillas) so that it can perform a triple tap on your flagship?

The key to the plan is the fact that the triple tap has a 'waiting room'. The Demolisher has to spend an entire turn waiting in the waiting room, so that it can perform it's last-then-first trick. If you fill that waiting room with things the Demolisher doesn't like, then it has to perform before it's ready and it isn't nearly as scary any more.

Like I said, it's not really that reliable. You have to accurately predict where the 'waiting room' will be, you have to put enough hurt in there that the Demolisher doesn't want to be there, and you have to out-fly the rest of your opponents fleet as he tries to clear a path through that waiting room. But frankly I think it's the best we got.

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If we were redoing Armada from the ground up (with a time machine!), I think an alternating first player system (I'm first, then you're first, etc.) might help with some of these problems but you'd need an entirely different way of doing objectives. I don't think that kind of change given the game state right now would work whatsoever, though.

The initiative and objective systems can be kept as is if there was change to ship activations. Something like "Unless it is the only ship left in your fleet, an activated ship cannot be activated again before another ship in your fleet has been activated." Edited by Tom Mothma

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If we were redoing Armada from the ground up (with a time machine!), I think an alternating first player system (I'm first, then you're first, etc.) might help with some of these problems but you'd need an entirely different way of doing objectives. I don't think that kind of change given the game state right now would work whatsoever, though.

The initiative and objective systems can be kept as is if there was change to ship activations. Something like "Unless it is the only ship left in your fleet, an activated ship cannot be activated again before another ship in your fleet has been activated."

So you would basically need to use some kind of token to ensure that the last ship you activate can't be activated first again next turn?

 

It feels like a clumsy fix to me. Last + first activations in my experience only get incredibly powerful when it's the Demolisher that's doing them. I think you'd be better off errataing Demolisher than making a change like that.

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A simpler version of this rule would be that a ship cannot activate twice in a row (even across rounds) unless it is the only ship a player has remaining.

Yes. That's what I was suggesting. Maybe even simpler "Once activated, a ship may not activate again until after any other ship has been activated by either player."

Don't think a token/marker would be needed to remember what the last ship you activated was. Remembering would not even be required unless first player has more ship activations than the second player.

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And we've got a guy around here who inexplicably kicks ass with just Indy, Gallant Haven, and a buttload of squadrons.

 

Two-ship builds are definitely still a thing, even though I have no idea how to make such a fleet go, myself.

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We had a two ship build win our last store champ, it was Defiance and a generic AFMKII with Xwings and Scuurgs along with Jan.  He beat 3 vics and 2 glads with it.  Maxing out on squadrons seems to help mitigate some of the 1st player advantage as well, since if you are bidding low with high activations, you likely don't have a ton of squadrons.

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Sorry if this has already been asked and answered but 10 pages is a lot to read through lol

What exactly is a triple tap build? I understand that it uses a demolisher as first player to fly in last then take the first shot next round, but is t that a double tap? Or am I missing something? Thanks :)

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Sorry if this has already been asked and answered but 10 pages is a lot to read through lol

What exactly is a triple tap build? I understand that it uses a demolisher as first player to fly in last then take the first shot next round, but is t that a double tap? Or am I missing something? Thanks :)

 

You have it right.

 

But its referred to the "Triple" as it is 3 Attacks over those 2 Activations.

 

Activate Last Turn 1 - Shoot with Demolisher - Tap 1

Activate First Turn 2 - Shoot as per Normal - Tap 2

 - Still activated - Shoot either as Per Normal or after Move with demolisher - Tap 3

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Sorry if this has already been asked and answered but 10 pages is a lot to read through lol

What exactly is a triple tap build? I understand that it uses a demolisher as first player to fly in last then take the first shot next round, but is t that a double tap? Or am I missing something? Thanks :)

 

 

I think people are referring to it as a "triple-tap" by counting the number of hull zone shots you get:  the one post-maneuver Demolisher shot, and then the double-arc shot that Engine Techs helps you set up for the beginning of the next turn.

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Sorry if this has already been asked and answered but 10 pages is a lot to read through lol

What exactly is a triple tap build? I understand that it uses a demolisher as first player to fly in last then take the first shot next round, but is t that a double tap? Or am I missing something? Thanks :)

Dras Ninja'd!

 

 

But anyways, using the Clonisher build in particular, it's

 

-Move + Engine Tech into range

-Front arc (4 blk + 2 red)

(next turn)

-Front arc (4 blk + 2 red)

-Move

-Side arc (4 blk)

 

If a conc. fire was in there, it's even deadlier!  With OE and screed, it climbs up to 20 damage real quick.

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I personally haven't played against a fleet like this. Does the Demolisher player typically do nav commands the whole time to trigger engine techs? I was thinking that tractor beams would be an interesting counter, but even if Demolisher is at speed 1, it could nav to speed 2 and engine techs every time, effectively moving speed 3 anyway.

 

Still, maybe it would make a difference. The tractor beams would need to be on a ship that's not getting targeted first so it can get in range. I was thinking something like multiple raiders with tractor beams.

Don't forget you can only tractor a ship your size or smaller, isn't the GSD a medium hull?

I could well be wrong, it's been an extremely long day!!!

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Yep, just checked!

The Force is weak in this one today!

Still, it feels wrong putting tractors on a small hull.

Interesting upgrade would be a Tug Tractor, only mountable on small hulls or flotillas but capable of grabbing larger ships, Med or maybe even Large in certain situations.

But like I said, it's been a very long day and I'm on my 3td batch of heavy duty painkillers!

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TO be truly fair and legit...it is a QUADRUPLE tap... 

 

Ive yet to have a game where my first shot was out of range. 

 

1)    2 red front (reroll vader)

move

2)    four black side (reroll oe, vader)

ram

*******

3)    2black 2 red front (reroll oe, vader)

4)    4 black (reroll oe, vader)

ram

ram

 

dead....

 

;)

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TO be truly fair and legit...it is a QUADRUPLE tap... 

 

Ive yet to have a game where my first shot was out of range. 

 

1)    2 red front (reroll vader)

move

2)    four black side (reroll oe, vader)

ram

*******

3)    2black 2 red front (reroll oe, vader)

4)    4 black (reroll oe, vader)

ram

ram

 

dead....

 

;)

This is certainly a thing if you're a decent Demo driver, but ain't nobody scared of two red dice at long range with no rerolls.  :)

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