Anti-Triple-Tap Strategies

[TheEasternKing 607]

Apt plus ramming. Dead mc80

Just speaking from experience. I also agree that demo is way under costed and changes the mechanics paradigm too much. People just haven't fully caught up to its power and the way to run it. IMO it beats every list with a modicum of skill.

 

APT? so your net damage is even lower?

 

8 Hp's, and 15 shields, that is a total of 23 damage needing dealing.

 

First attack with 4 black dice can deal 8+1 damage (braced to 4+1)

Second attack with 4 black dice can deal 8+1 damage

Third attack with 2 red, 2 black can roll 6+1 damage

 

For a grand total 21 damage, then a double ram for the final 2 points, so great, if you can roll the max possible on 3 attacks you can take out a full health MC80.

 

But please stop with the hyperbole, it is only just barely possible, and nothing like a forgone conclusion, you would need to be unbelievably lucky.

 

If you had ACM it is still difficult, but I'd say you have 99% chance of your MC80 surviving a Demolisher with APT triple tap/double ram.

 

The best part is, you roll 1 damage less, and your Demolisher is stuck in a bad spot, with 3 hps, and 2 tapped Def Tokens.

Edited April 5, 2016 by TheEasternKing

[mikemcmann 359]

No hyperbole...just facts and experience

 

Upset much?

 

hehheh...

 

Heres the sequence:

 

1) Bottom of turn x - demo fires two reds. With vader, 1.5 shield damage

2) Move 3 (or whatever to get in double arc)

3) Fire side arc at Mc80 side (that was just fired at presumably

4) with OE-Vader, apts work. Average 6-7 damage Intel a brace  they eat 6-7 shields. Wherever they send the redirect, some hit the target

5) Ram it with engine tech

6) Note - it has taken two damage cards one face up after demo first move plus 6ish damage unless they spent the brace

7) ** Firespray drops a couple blues on downed shield (this is my build - others may vary)

8) Top of turn x+1 - Demo goes to work

9) **Uses squad token to immediately activate firespray for two more blue

10) Fires Side arc. OE and Vader, apt works. 6-7 more damage with intel brace if not used. wherever they redirect some hit the hull at this point likely one or two. PLUS the apt

11) Fires front arc. OE and Vader, apt works. 3.5 to 4.5 more. 

12) If it isn't dead...double ram.

 

Just the apt (which are auto in my book with vader/oe) plus ramming does six hull. Three of which are faceup.  Average damage with Demo over four shots is about 18 or so, or 15ish if they brace one. Even redirecting every shot that means 11 shields. Four get to the hull. That's four...PLUS the six from apt and ramming. 

 

And..that doesn't include the 4 blue the support firespray tossed. In other words, its dead. No hyperbole...no ridiculous rolls...just..dead.

 

That is OP.....

 

But, I am certain you are a master at avoiding that attack.

[Snipafist 7,536]

No hyperbole...just facts and experience

 

Upset much?

 

hehheh...

 

But, I am certain you are a master at avoiding that attack.

[ianediger 1,345]

[TheEasternKing 607]

No hyperbole...just facts and experience

 

Upset much?

 

hehheh...

 

Heres the sequence:

 

1) Bottom of turn x - demo fires two reds. With vader, 1.5 shield damage

2) Move 3 (or whatever to get in double arc)

3) Fire side arc at Mc80 side (that was just fired at presumably

4) with OE-Vader, apts work. Average 6-7 damage Intel a brace  they eat 6-7 shields. Wherever they send the redirect, some hit the target

5) Ram it with engine tech

6) Note - it has taken two damage cards one face up after demo first move plus 6ish damage unless they spent the brace

7) ** Firespray drops a couple blues on downed shield (this is my build - others may vary)

8) Top of turn x+1 - Demo goes to work

9) **Uses squad token to immediately activate firespray for two more blue

10) Fires Side arc. OE and Vader, apt works. 6-7 more damage with intel brace if not used. wherever they redirect some hit the hull at this point likely one or two. PLUS the apt

11) Fires front arc. OE and Vader, apt works. 3.5 to 4.5 more. 

12) If it isn't dead...double ram.

 

Just the apt (which are auto in my book with vader/oe) plus ramming does six hull. Three of which are faceup.  Average damage with Demo over four shots is about 18 or so, or 15ish if they brace one. Even redirecting every shot that means 11 shields. Four get to the hull. That's four...PLUS the six from apt and ramming. 

 

And..that doesn't include the 4 blue the support firespray tossed. In other words, its dead. No hyperbole...no ridiculous rolls...just..dead.

 

That is OP.....

 

But, I am certain you are a master at avoiding that attack.

 

Definitely full of it.

 

You're getting 1.5 shield damage from 2 red dice? hows that working again.

 

You're starting in red dice range? which means spending an entire round in red dice range.

 

You're firing a Firespray? what are the opponents squadrons doing? 

 

6-7 damage is not average for an APT equipped Demolisher

 

Intel Officer does not stop Brace being spent.

 

I already gave you the math, even adding 1-2 points for an initial red attack at long range, you still need nearly maximum rolls on every dice, and conveniently no enemy squadrons around, their most important ship.

 

I mean grats man, you're awesome.

 

And I play as an Imperial, I have been using no squadron fleets since the end of wave one, start of wave two, I have run Demolisher many many times, and I think you're full of it. 

 

And I'd love to see your 5 ship build that can afford not only Vader, but Firesprays, and still have a low enough bid to get player one, post away, by all means.

Edited April 5, 2016 by TheEasternKing

[TheEasternKing 607]

I mean this guy stated it kills anything, its op, ruins the meta, needs changing.

 

Yet his math doesn't hold up....sorry, it does if you roll max damage every single attack.

 

And now hes added Firesprays to the mix, I don't even....

[Amanal 2,557]

No hyperbole...just facts and experience

 

Upset much?

 

Not at all, I am enjoying the intellectual process in figuring out how to go about making it less likely to win.

 

My experiences in playing against it isn't too dissimilar to what you have. My opponent uses Dengar, and 2 Regular Intel squadrons plus Rhymer and 5 Bombers. So I have to push past those, worry about two other VSD's with Engine Techs and a Raider that rides gun on the ball. I am also prone to bid against him and we have both managed to bid 17 in the same game. 

 

To me the idea of opposing it with an AF, MC80, ISD or even a VSD is that you are just feeding it points.

 

Like any fleet it doesn't exist in isolation to the parts. Nor does the expect tactics always hold true. Sure you may expect the Demolisher to triple tap, but what it it just sticks to the side of the target ship and activate everything else? What if activating the Demolisher makes better sense if left to last?

 

@TheEasternKing: His fleet includes these things, why shouldn't they form part of the discussion? You are playing your 5 ship fleet and countering Demolisher with your counter strategy, putting all your ships exactly where a ship with Engine Techs, Speed 2/3 and a tight turning circle can be. You are both playing the same game there I am afraid.

 

Just making 10 rolls on the Dice App I get (with 4 Black): 6C, 4C, 5C, 4C, 5C, 5C, 5C, 5C, 4C, 6C. Which triggers APT each roll (C is my shorthand for Critical) and therefore managed to deal 5-7 damage with each roll. I have been playing a similar list and my friends results are about in line with this and he uses Screed. Even if the MC80 survives to step 13, which as Mike knows it will or wont he can just run away and be somewhere safer, he is not obligated to double ram if it won't kill the ship, the ship will probably last to the squadron phase at best where the Firesprays finish off the MC80.

 

I also figure that as the 2 Red dice is being fired after the MC80 moves there is an assumption that it was out of range on turn X and moved when it activated. With the damage expectation of 1.5 (0.75*2) which is actually a little higher as you aren't putting Darth Vader into the maths. Hitting the App again: 3, A1C, 2C, 3, 2C, 2C, A1C, A2, 3, A1 (20 damage/10 = 2 average) Man, I wish I could roll red dice like that in a game.

 

Here is the interesting this I have found, if my opponent had a good squadron phase between activations he may not need the second attack and can them move and shoot elsewhere. He has on many occasions shot at my MC80 (for example) with his left arc then done a speed 2 "U" turn to shoot 4 black dice on the next target using his right side arc. 

 

This game is fun for me because I am delusional, I think I can come up with a list that will give Demolisher a tough game and I am hopeful that the list can also cope with a range of things. I also don't want to participate in the stagnation of my meta with a thought process that evolves around "if you can't beat them join them".

Edited April 5, 2016 by Amanal

[clontroper5 4,232]

I mean this guy stated it kills anything, its op, ruins the meta, needs changing.

Yet his math doesn't hold up....sorry, it does if you roll max damage every single attack.

And now hes added Firesprays to the mix, I don't even....

when you double reroll black dice fishing for crit/hits 4 dice do 6-7 damage almost like clockwork try it

Edit: well 5-6 damage plus 1 from Apt

Edited April 5, 2016 by clontroper5

[TheEasternKing 607]

First off, he has posted in several threads about this, not once to date has he mentioned he requires assistance from squadrons to triple tap big ships, until I called him out on it.

 

Well this was about Demolisher, not Demolisher + friends, myself and several others believe that a full health MC80 with Advanced projectors can survive a triple tap from Demolisher with APT, it has a very very good chance of doing so, which is counter to what he is claiming, he is stating that he will always kill one AP or not, well the maths do not support his claims.

 

Your dice app seems wonky because it should have 1-2 damage rolls in there. he was stating 6-7 damage +1 damage for APT, IE 7-8 total, which is not average, you can dice app all day long, but it is not an average roll.

 

I love how all of a sudden not only is the MC80 in total isolation, its flown into range of Demolisher to help it out some.

 

I have played in many many tournaments now, and if you want to keep Demolisher alive, it starts out of range, and jumps into range, with its Engine Techs, then it double taps, and then it flys away.

[TheEasternKing 607]

 

I mean this guy stated it kills anything, its op, ruins the meta, needs changing.

 

Yet his math doesn't hold up....sorry, it does if you roll max damage every single attack.

 

And now hes added Firesprays to the mix, I don't even....

when you double reroll black dice fishing for crit/hits 4 dice do 6-7 damage almost like clockwork try it

 

 

laws of probability out the window then eh? 

 

A black dice has 50% chance of rolling 1 damage, a 25% chance of rolling 1 damage and 1 crit, and a 25% chance of rolling no damage, that means you have as much chance of getting no damage as you do increasing your damage by 1 crit.

 

I do play Imperials, I do play in tournaments, I have rolled good, I have rolled poorly, and I have rolled about average with a double reroll.

 

I just picked my dice up, rolled 4 black, hit/crit, hit, hit, blank, so i'll reroll 3 of them, blank, hit, hit crit, i'll reroll 2 of them, blank, hit. so 1 blank, 1 hit, 2 hit/crits 5 damage! about average then. Not sure wtf this is supposed to prove mind, as dice are dice, you can roll great all game, then fluff the crunch point roll, or roll sub par, and then pull an absolute blinder out at crunch point and get well over the odds.

 

What you cannot do is claim you always roll maximum, and thus "Demolisher" is broken and badly breaks the game.

[clontroper5 4,232]

I mean this guy stated it kills anything, its op, ruins the meta, needs changing.

 

Yet his math doesn't hold up....sorry, it does if you roll max damage every single attack.

 

And now hes added Firesprays to the mix, I don't even....

when you double reroll black dice fishing for crit/hits 4 dice do 6-7 damage almost like clockwork try it

 

laws of probability out the window then eh? 

 

A black dice has 50% chance of rolling 1 damage, a 25% chance of rolling 1 damage and 1 crit, and a 25% chance of rolling no damage, that means you have as much chance of getting no damage as you do increasing your damage by 1 crit.

 

I do play Imperials, I do play in tournaments, I have rolled good, I have rolled poorly, and I have rolled about average with a double reroll.

 

I just picked my dice up, rolled 4 black, hit/crit, hit, hit, blank, so i'll reroll 3 of them, blank, hit, hit crit, i'll reroll 2 of them, blank, hit. so 1 blank, 1 hit, 2 hit/crits 5 damage! about average then. Not sure wtf this is supposed to prove mind, as dice are dice, you can roll great all game, then fluff the crunch point roll, or roll sub par, and then pull an absolute blinder out at crunch point and get well over the odds.

 

What you cannot do is claim you always roll maximum, and thus "Demolisher" is broken and badly breaks the game.

so what your saying is you rolled 5 damage with a double reroll (which is what we have been saying, 5+APT=6) this according to you is "Average" but when we say 6-7 damage (again 5-6 hits + apt) we are suddenly claiming we roll "Max damage" (Which is actually 9 damage) every time and don't know probability?

[TheEasternKing 607]

 

 

 

I mean this guy stated it kills anything, its op, ruins the meta, needs changing.

 

Yet his math doesn't hold up....sorry, it does if you roll max damage every single attack.

 

And now hes added Firesprays to the mix, I don't even....

when you double reroll black dice fishing for crit/hits 4 dice do 6-7 damage almost like clockwork try it

 

laws of probability out the window then eh? 

 

A black dice has 50% chance of rolling 1 damage, a 25% chance of rolling 1 damage and 1 crit, and a 25% chance of rolling no damage, that means you have as much chance of getting no damage as you do increasing your damage by 1 crit.

 

I do play Imperials, I do play in tournaments, I have rolled good, I have rolled poorly, and I have rolled about average with a double reroll.

 

I just picked my dice up, rolled 4 black, hit/crit, hit, hit, blank, so i'll reroll 3 of them, blank, hit, hit crit, i'll reroll 2 of them, blank, hit. so 1 blank, 1 hit, 2 hit/crits 5 damage! about average then. Not sure wtf this is supposed to prove mind, as dice are dice, you can roll great all game, then fluff the crunch point roll, or roll sub par, and then pull an absolute blinder out at crunch point and get well over the odds.

 

What you cannot do is claim you always roll maximum, and thus "Demolisher" is broken and badly breaks the game.

so what your saying is you rolled 5 damage with a double reroll (which is what we have been saying, 5+APT=6) this according to you is "Average" but when we say 6-7 damage (again 5-6 hits + apt) we are suddenly claiming we roll "Max damage" (Which is actually 9 damage) every time and don't know probability?

 

 

Unless I misread, he said 6-7 not including the +1 damage.

 

And of course I am saying 5+1 is an average damage roll, and thus 3 of them are insufficient to destroy a full health, full shield MC80 with Advanced projectors, which is what started this whole mess.

 

Yes 8+1 is max damage, and you need to roll max damage twice, then max damage again from the front arc, and then ram it twice, to kill said MC80. with a triple tap from Demolisher, I dunno if you read it or not, and I can't say I blame you if you didn't, but allow me to quote what I am objecting too.

 

Not to disagree, but the only ship that can survive a "properly executed" demolisher run, is a motti isd. Anything with 6 or less hull to start auto dies. 8 and above requires almost mild damage. The 14 hull isd is doable, but not a guarantee.

Not theory craft or math, but 23 tournament game experience with it.

 

 

 

Not to disagree, but the only ship that can survive a "properly executed" demolisher run, is a motti isd. Anything with 6 or less hull to start auto dies. 8 and above requires almost mild damage. The 14 hull isd is doable, but not a guarantee.

Not theory craft or math, but 23 tournament game experience with it.

 

Just purely curious - wondering, even - have you taken on an MC80 Assault Cruiser with both ECMs and APs in that time, Mike?

 

 

 

Dras - yup, several. Mc80 is a piece of cake. Only two damage from "shooting" has to make it thru with 11 black and 4'red. Pretty simple.

The 14 hull is tricky. The rolls on damage have to be well above average. But not out of possible.

Ecm does nothing to demo. Ap is moderately useful, but won't save an mc80

 

 

In fact the odds are it will survive, because average damage is not enough.

 

And killing a full health Motti ISD with Advanced projectors is almost impossible, you would need to draw 3 structural damage cards( I think 4 or 5? in a deck), or a projector misaligned of which there are 2  in a 52 card deck.

Edited April 5, 2016 by TheEasternKing

[TheEasternKing 607]

Apt plus ramming. Dead mc80

Just speaking from experience. I also agree that demo is way under costed and changes the mechanics paradigm too much. People just haven't fully caught up to its power and the way to run it. IMO it beats every list with a modicum of skill.

 

 

Oh, and this gem Clon, is also another part of my strenuous objections.

 

Turns out hes using Firesprays for extra damage to kill the MC80, but its purely Demolisher doing so, for his wild statements like that nonsense I just quoted for you.

[Amanal 2,557]

Your dice app seems wonky because it should have 1-2 damage rolls in there. he was stating 6-7 damage +1 damage for APT, IE 7-8 total, which is not average, you can dice app all day long, but it is not an average roll.

 

Yes, I didn't realise there was two re-rolls in the equation and only made 1. As such those results would have improved. 

 

Trying with 2 re-rolls:

5C, 7C, 6C, 5C, 7C, 5C, 6C, 5C, 6C, 6C

 

Add the +1 for APT as they all trigger the effect and I am getting the 6-8 damage being presented.

 

Just speaking from experience. I also agree that demo is way under costed and changes the mechanics paradigm too much. People just haven't fully caught up to its power and the way to run it. IMO it beats every list with a modicum of skill.

 

I have played many games against my Demolisher opponent in the past 4 months and I have won zero, to be fair he has practiced and worked at playing it very well too, I enjoy our games because he plays so well. When we play any other lists I tend to run about 50/50 with him, and I am fairly sure I'll get there with an idea that counters Demolisher, so I am going to agree to disagree on the under costed nature of the card. I just need to figure the how part.

 

I am fairly sure that the Flotillas will affect the meta here too, so this problem is not going to last much longer. Although, we'll see in time and I could very well be hopelessly wrong.

[MattShadowlord 1,494]

Can we just accept that it was a mistake for mikemcmann to insert a floating Firespray into the Demolisher discussion (I hope you don't mind me pointing that out, mikemcmann, I am just trying to speed this out of the firespray cul-de-sac and back to the topic).

 

IMHO if the consensus was that Demolisher+InsertAnythingHere was required, we'd not even having this discussion. We'd just have reached the conclusion that players should remove from the equation that second item (in this case the free-roaming fast-moving Firespray) and have moved on.
 

Here's what I believe we all do agree on, including TheEasternKing and MikeMcMann:

 

• The Demolisher can delete almost any ship in the game between the target ship's activations.
• The two ships with a decent chance to survive are very specific chunky builds: the MC80 with APT and either Mon Mothma or Lando to attempt to introduce more randomness to the final roll results, and the ISD -but only if Motti is used as the Admiral.

A number of players have commented they find the predictability and inevitability of flagship deletion one of the most demoralising events in Armada. That includes me; the first time I came across it was with Clontroper5 after I'd played the angles right, kited as much as possible, and used defence tokens in best possible order, and the result was still just exploding spacedust where a flagship had been. Well played C5 lol, but also it was the first and last time I actually thought 'Hey do I actually like Armada?

 

Fortunately I do like Armada , although must admit I am concerned it's the sort of event that could turn new players off the game. Imagine someone new to the game being forced to take a 150pt+ flag ship off the table before it has even taken a shot and let's be honest; it's a negative play experience. Telling them 'oh yeah that's the standard outcome, that always happens' isn't going to cut it.

 

Now, since that game with C5 I have played against variations of his list several times; 5 activations and a fully loaded Demolisher. I've lost my flagship to the Demolisher in half of them, with the other half being my 2nd most expensive ship which was sent out to draw it instead. I have however won all the games (garbage margins, but a win is a win right? )

 

The key changes were being prepared to sacrifice the 2nd most expensive ship, picking demolisher unfriendly objectives, including random-luck Lando instead of a reliable Intellgence Agent, picking flight paths that make it at least more difficult for the Demo to operate (it still gets its kill, get over it), using Navigation orders much more frequently -well it's not like engineering will help lol, and having the fleet ready to fire through the debris and burning bodies of their allied ship after it gets murderised.
 

Because that ship is going to get murderised, but you may still be able to claw back a pyrrhic win.

 

I hope that helps.

Edited April 5, 2016 by MattShadowlord

[TheEasternKing 607]

 

Your dice app seems wonky because it should have 1-2 damage rolls in there. he was stating 6-7 damage +1 damage for APT, IE 7-8 total, which is not average, you can dice app all day long, but it is not an average roll.

 

Yes, I didn't realise there was two re-rolls in the equation and only made 1. As such those results would have improved. 

 

Trying with 2 re-rolls:

5C, 7C, 6C, 5C, 7C, 5C, 6C, 5C, 6C, 6C

 

Add the +1 for APT as they all trigger the effect and I am getting the 6-8 damage being presented.

 

Just speaking from experience. I also agree that demo is way under costed and changes the mechanics paradigm too much. People just haven't fully caught up to its power and the way to run it. IMO it beats every list with a modicum of skill.

 

I have played many games against my Demolisher opponent in the past 4 months and I have won zero, to be fair he has practiced and worked at playing it very well too, I enjoy our games because he plays so well. When we play any other lists I tend to run about 50/50 with him, and I am fairly sure I'll get there with an idea that counters Demolisher, so I am going to agree to disagree on the under costed nature of the card. I just need to figure the how part.

 

I am fairly sure that the Flotillas will affect the meta here too, so this problem is not going to last much longer. Although, we'll see in time and I could very well be hopelessly wrong.

 

 

Then your dice app is broken, as it doesn't seem to represent the fact you have the same chance of going to no damage, as you do increasing damage.

[KovuTalli 178]

A triple tapping Luke or Keyan can be good too.

 

I have a build along the lines of:

 

MC80 Command + Adar Talon + Dodonna

AFMK2A + Gunnery Team - Used to be AFKM2B + Paragon see fighter changes as to why I changed to A + Gunnery.

Escort Neb + Yavaris

Luke, Keyan, 1X 2B's, HWK - this used to be Luke, Keyan, Wedge, Dutch, 1B, HWK but figured I'd take Whale A + Gunnery instead as it is better vs a mass fighter ball than Wedge/Dutch combo is.

 

379 points I don't think I've seen anyone else bid more than 20 before, so 21 should be solid bet to go first.

[Chucknuckle 2,811]

Then your dice app is broken, as it doesn't seem to represent the fact you have the same chance of going to no damage, as you do increasing damage.

I don't think the probabilities work quite the way you think they do.

[Ginkapo 9,320]

You dont reroll all the dice, only non hit/crits.

Just kill the rest of your opponents fleet and run away.

[Jondavies72 575]

Ok I thought i would put some plastic on the table and do a few attack runs with a Demo against an MC80 in a simlpified triple tap ( no trips, traps or board edges to get in the Demo's way).

Demo had scree, OE, IO, APT

MC had AP, redundant shield and lando

So what happened ( five attack runs later)

demo gets three attacks, one is braced, one gets a lando

The demo was getting:

3-4 from the braced hit

4ish from the lando hit (one got a natural 6, one whiffed a 2 and no crit, 3 rolls got crits)

Then a 6 on average from the last hit

demo did not once get the 17 or more damage needed to land hull damage from the dice (15 shields + 1 regeneration)

Most of the time the MC had 2-3 shields left.

So all the damage came from APT and ramming which is not adequate For the kill,

My conclusion.

The fate of the MC80 and Demo, who was down 2-3 hull post Rams, would be dependent on the follow up from both fleets, if the MC 80 had planned a repair dial, banked a token, had supporting projection experts and is screened from follow up next round he will be back in the fight. If the Demo player has a second attack that can get through the MC80 is toast.

To get in more than one Ram the Demo would likely ( unless skilfully played) be left compromised ( in the line up for the attack run, or after) and if the second player has made better positional moves would be in trouble.

So MC80s with the right set of upgrades will tend to survive unless unlucky and the rest comes down to how well both fleets are played.........

It's all in the quality of the play not a 10 point upgrade card.

[Ardaedhel 10,840]

It's all in the quality of the play not a 10 point upgrade card.

So a 134 (minimum) point ship, completely optimized against this particular threat in a way that, btw, is largely neutered against many popular fleets (I'd rather not get into XI7/AP again), has a chance of not being one-shotted by a much cheaper, much more flexible and widely-useful ship... And everything's okay, nothing to see here?

Seriously?

[Mogrok 526]

yes...the I left a ship out in the open and it got killed isn't an excuse.  How is Demo getting a no problem land on you with double arc shot to the MC80 or any other big ship.  No small ships on flank protection?  No swarm of squadrons for it to land into...no threat to some other ship that will be blown off the table if Demo activates before it does?  Make the Imp player running Demo make a choice between two bad ones.  Demo doesn't even worry me across the table when I have run other lists.  I set a trap...if he takes it Demo dies...if he doesn't then my ship didn't die....rinse repeat every turn.  Against me this has meant Demo didn't get a shot all game.  When I have used it...Demo died sure I lost a small ship but Demo worth 80+ points was way more. 

People are reacting to what they can't figure out how to stop.  Yet many people have produced many options to counter them...which apparently no one wants to acknowledge.  I didn't want to change my go to list when Ackbar became a thing...but guess what, I was tired of losing to him.  So I did and found a list that I like playing even more...and now don't worry about Ackbar as much. 

 

I also remember my first time ever playing and got jumped by Yavaris B wings and didn't realize that power...eventually...I understood...now don't care about it. 

 

I'll reiterate....Riekan...rogue squadrons....bidding....your objectives....mutual supporting ships....good navigating on your part....threatening other ships... out activating.  Those are all possible counters to Demo.  And experienced players know how to kill him.  Which shows when he dies about 50% of the time in my tournament games.  Costing me 90+points. 

[Ardaedhel 10,840]

*sigh* Okay, let's re-hash it some more...

yes...the I left a ship out in the open and it got killed isn't an excuse. How is Demo getting a no problem land on you with double arc shot to the MC80 or any other big ship.

This is how. https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/203491-the-clonisher-an-analysis-of-threat-radius/page-1?hl=%20threat%20%20range

No small ships on flank protection?

Name a small ship that can both reliably one-shot Demolisher and be part of a 5+ activation fleet.

No swarm of squadrons for it to land into...

A GSD can take on average 10 TIE bomber/Y-wing shots, 8-9 Firespray shots, 6-7 B-Wing shots... Assuming they're all into the same arc. And keep in mind these are all un-activated, because he's jumping in after your ships are all activated.

no threat to some other ship that will be blown off the table if Demo activates before it does?

This is the tactic I'm working on, but no other ship trades up on anything like the same scale Demolisher does. Especially after losing your flagship, which is what Demo should be killing.

I set a trap...if he takes it Demo dies...if he doesn't then my ship didn't die....rinse repeat every turn. Against me this has meant Demo didn't get a shot all game.

Nobody's saying Demo won't die--probably, eventually. We're saying he's going to do so after killing your most important ship or ships. If that threat has been preventing your opponents from attacking with Demo, sounds like you may be playing against someone who uses it too timidly. Our with too few activations to support it.

I also remember my first time ever playing and got jumped by Yavaris B wings and didn't realize that power...eventually...I understood...now don't care about it.

Yavaris B-Wings is good. It is easily countered, and not particularly relevant.

I'll reiterate....Riekan...

Dead at the end of the round is still dead.

rogue squadrons....

Won't reliably save you. Hell, probably won't do anything to Demolisher before he's traded, if he brought even a modicum of fighters.

bidding....

Unreliable. My last SC saw two sub-380 bids with Demo builds.

your objectives....

There is no red objective that is not good for Demo and four raiders.

mutual supporting ships....

See above. This is not about whether demo will die, it's about the fact that he will kill literally any ship in the game before he does.

good navigating on your part....

Lol. Even a CR90 can't escape ET/Demo, dude. See the threat range discussion I linked above.

threatening other ships...

The only workable proposal I think. But again, you're starting at a deficit, because Demo will take out anything it chooses--which will invariably be your most important ship--before you get your counter-threatening shot off.

out activating.

You're calling for 6+ activations. Not everyone likes running swarms. And if you do, you're losing two of those ships to Demo, and it's very hard to trap Demolisher in such a way that you can kill it with swarms. I'm the Rieekan/CR90B/SW-7 swarm evangelist of the forum, and I've only just figured out how to stop Demo--and it will be easily countered as soon as Demo players start seeing me do it.

Those are all possible counters to Demo. And experienced players know how to kill him. Which shows when he dies about 50% of the time in my tournament games. Costing me 90+points.

Reiterating one more time: nobody thinks Demolisher won't die. But if someone offered you the opportunity, outside the context of this discussion, the ability to outright kill the ship of your choosing every game, how many points would that be worth to you? Because that's what Demolisher is.

Edited April 5, 2016 by Ardaedhel

[Snipafist 7,536]

I think claiming Demolisher can kill the ship of its choosing every game and will kill Rieekan turn 2 is getting into outright hyperbole. It's a strong ship. Perhaps too strong. But it can't teleport to wherever it wants. Demolisher has a lot of options in its targets but those options are eligible or not at least partially by decisions made by your opponent. You can get to better targets with Demolisher if your current options don't appeal to you, but it consumes time to do so.

[TheEasternKing 607]

 

Then your dice app is broken, as it doesn't seem to represent the fact you have the same chance of going to no damage, as you do increasing damage.

I don't think the probabilities work quite the way you think they do.

 

 

 

I understand the probabilities and chance, just fine thanks.

 

these guys are not talking about rerolling blanks into hits, which is a 75% chance of occurrence (great odds) they are talking about aggressively re-rolling dice that have a hit on them, to get a hit/crit.

 

Well you have a 25% of getting a hit/crit, and a 25% chance of getting a blank, that means you have an even chance of increasing your damage, or decreasing your damage.