Anti-Triple-Tap Strategies

[Snipafist 7,536]

With the triple tap Demolisher, the player also gets first move in the fighter phase. Throw in two fast squadrons to guard Demo, and the rogue/bomber response is seriously hampered.

Intel shuts this down pretty hard. Rhymer is also a problem, given the Rhymerball can attack from outside of conventional bomber range.

 

I personally haven't played against a fleet like this. Does the Demolisher player typically do nav commands the whole time to trigger engine techs? I was thinking that tractor beams would be an interesting counter, but even if Demolisher is at speed 1, it could nav to speed 2 and engine techs every time, effectively moving speed 3 anyway.

 

Still, maybe it would make a difference. The tractor beams would need to be on a ship that's not getting targeted first so it can get in range. I was thinking something like multiple raiders with tractor beams.

Navigate is the default command for me, anyways. Occasionally I'll Concentrate Fire (especially if I've got a Nav token banked and am pretty confident I'll be making an attack run on the next turn). Rarely I'll Engineering or Squadrons (although with the Demolisher specifically usually neither of those ever).

 

Tractor Beams do basically nothing that helps the Tractor Beams player (side note: I've run a 3 Tractor Beam fleet and they can be useful, but not generally in this match up). I'm quite happy to keep Navigating my way around all the time and I like it when enemies help me decelerate once I'm attacking them, as I can now execute tighter turns.

[CaribbeanNinja 6,207]

Currently I think there is no great response to the Triple Tap.  I think the main thing is to pray you aren't matched up against it and/or that your opponent messes up.  This is entirely possible as it doesn't fly itself!

 

Both factions can play the bidding war/Activation war.  Rebels have Rieekan, Imperials have Rhymer.  Both of these are just okay.

 

I actually think Flotillas will make a world of difference against the triple tap.  Helping with the bomber math against demolisher will be huge.  Also the stupid scatter and the fact that you can block with them may also make a world of difference.

[Madaghmire 7,274]

Currently I think there is no great response to the Triple Tap.  I think the main thing is to pray you aren't matched up against it and/or that your opponent messes up.  This is entirely possible as it doesn't fly itself!

 

Both factions can play the bidding war/Activation war.  Rebels have Rieekan, Imperials have Rhymer.  Both of these are just okay.

 

I actually think Flotillas will make a world of difference against the triple tap.  Helping with the bomber math against demolisher will be huge.  Also the stupid scatter and the fact that you can block with them may also make a world of difference.

I'm on board ninja. I think these cheap activations are going to do more for squadron fleets then swarms.

[Snipafist 7,536]

I actually think Flotillas will make a world of difference against the triple tap.  Helping with the bomber math against demolisher will be huge.  Also the stupid scatter and the fact that you can block with them may also make a world of difference.

I'm also cautiously optimistic about flotillas. The Scatter token is a good defense against a ton of black dice (no Accuracy results possible) and decent against attacks with a small number of red dice (like a Gladiator front arc or Scout MC30s) where Accuracy icons are rare. Raiders and Torpedo MC30s will have an easier time of it due to the blue dice. Intel Officers can zap the Scatter, of course, but then you need to spend a turn double-arcing a nuisance ship instead of "real" prey.

 

The problem is there are a lot of unknowns right now about the flotillas. In order for them to be a soft counter to a triple tap Demolisher (and friends) fleet, they would need to be the kind of thing that can't be ignored but is a hassle to waste time/activations killing. A Bomber Command flotilla seems to qualify, provided it creates a bubble where the expected retort from bombers may be sufficient to turn the Demolisher run into a piece trade. You might be able to use flotillas to clog up possible "landing zones" for a Demolisher but doing so gets extremely tricky and doesn't seem like a realistic counter in most cases.

[Ginkapo 9,320]

APT dodonna

[TheEasternKing 607]

 

Demolisher is expensive, and costs a lot of points on a relatively weak ship, It's not impossible to one shot, and only really earns it points by killing something worth more than itself.

 

Rebels get a lot of very cheap ships, that can become very nasty with just one upgrade card, and a certain Admiral.

 

I think based on my experience, you are underselling Demolisher and over selling the Rebels with ships that can get a side arc shot on Demolisher with or without that Admiral.

 

Demolisher with Engine Techs can very quickly engage and get 3 shots and disengage to a safe arc. Then over 2 turns re-engage and kill another ship. I think if you are finding that you are killing Demolisher in one shot then your opponent needs to do some more time in the simulator.

 

7-8CR30's works not because of any great reason other than you can just plain and simple win by attrition. You lose 1-2 of them after the 5th activation then your last 2-3 activations can deal 9-18 damage and 2-3 rams perhaps. I am torn between this idea resulting in a headlong charge or something slightly more controlled. (2 rows of 4 ships each traveling speed 4). I am also not too sure if this list will win games but not win tournaments. However, if you play Demolisher and lose a game or two to players with such lists it may just be the meta shake up that has players pack up Demolisher and take ISD's, VSD,s and Home One's to kill off the swarms.

 

I played a list with 3 MC30 Scout Frigates on the weekend and felt I was moving in the right direction. I have yet to try it but 3 Torpedo Frigates with Rieekan/Mon Montha and Odrnance Experts and APT with Han Solo, Jan Ors, and 6 YT2400's or I can take 4 ships and drop Jan and 3 x YT-2400's. Note that I could also drop Jan and throw in 2 other ships with Intel, which are just there to allow me to move the other squadrons after they have been engaged.

 

I think here with the 3 ship list Mon Montha may be the choice as I I would only use a dead ship if it hadn't activated, in the 4 ship list he may be the better choice as I will be activating last, for as long as we trade ships.

 

 

I am not underselling anything, what I stated was the absolute truth, Demolisher triple tap only works on high value targets, if you cannot position your own ships/squadrons to cover possible move areas for Demolisher, that is not a game balance issue, that is a player issue. Demolisher is not some magic phantom, that can literally move anywhere, it can move in a very predictable area, just like every other ship.

 

I never said take all CR90's, Nebulons are cheap, so are Assault Frigates. anything that costs less than a fully decked out Gladiator Demolisher is a worthy trade off to get it off of the table, and that is what people are overlooking, nothing would dismay me more, having to use that super expensive combo to kill a ship worth less than it, and then put it at risk of destruction.

 

And my own experience has shown I can table an opponent, without having my own Demolisher fire once, the entire game, the other Gladiator and 3 Raiders double tapping are more than sufficient if equipped similar. I've also lost a game because I couldn't even with a Demolisher triple tap, kill a full health/fullshields Motti ISD II.

[Churry 40]

Here's hoping they decide to make a Han Solo officer: At the start of your ship phase, this ship may activate before any other ship regardless of initiative. If you choose to activate this way, you can only move OR shoot.

[RogueCommander 236]

As an exercise, I toyed around with possible Rebel Counters to the Triple tap. Now, this is entirely based on what I actually have in terms of ships, the advice in these posts, and a hatred for CR90 swarms.

Anti-Demolisher Ackbar

Faction: Rebel Alliance 
Points: 395/400 


Commander: Admiral Ackbar

Assault Objective: Advanced Gunnery 
Defense Objective: Fire Lanes

Navigation Objective: Superior Positions

[ flagship ] MC80 Assault Cruiser (114 points)
-  Admiral Ackbar  ( 38  points) 
-  Home One  ( 7  points) 
-  Engine Techs  ( 8  points) 
-  Electronic Countermeasures  ( 7  points) 
-  XI7 Turbolasers  ( 6  points) 
-  Leading Shots  ( 4  points) 


CR90 Corvette B (39 points)
-  Dodonnas Pride  ( 6  points) 
-  Nav Team  ( 4  points) 
-  Leading Shots  ( 4  points) 


CR90 Corvette A (44 points)
-  Jainas Light  ( 2  points) 
-  Nav Team  ( 4  points) 
-  Enhanced Armament  ( 10  points) 


1 Dash Rendar ( 24 points)

1 Han Solo ( 26 points)


3 YT-2400s ( 48 points) 


Fleet created with Armada Warlords

I'm going to try to rest this soonish, and wanted to see what feedback you had. The idea is quick response to hotspots with the CRs, coverage two flanks between them and the squads and Home One to make sure Acky doesn't whiff as often.

As always, a purpose built list can be very weak against other lists, but I think this could be fun.

Thoughts?

[Ginkapo 9,320]

Demo will suicide on mc80, killing it outright, and there is nothing you can do about it. He wont care about losing demo in a trade against your list.

[RogueCommander 236]

If I plant the 80 as far back in deployment as possible, you don't think 2 CRs and (possibly) 5 Rogues couldn't intercept and take out a Glad before it got in range of the 80?

Edited April 4, 2016 by RogueCommander

[Snipafist 7,536]

If I plant the 80 as far back in deployment as possible, you don't think 2 CRs and (possibly) 5 Rogues couldn't intercept and take out a Glad before it got in range of the 80?

That's not how it works usually, though. The Gladiators should be able to generally avoid your side arcs and get into the front/rear. If you start far back, then there's no particular rush to get there provided they can still drop enough ships for a decent win, and your ships are loaded down with upgrades, making them juicy (and in the CR90s' cases, fragile) targets. With so few activations and such a strong preference for shooting from one good arc, you'll have a very difficult time against a standard Demolisher and Friends 5-activation fleet.

[BMcDonald7 437]

I think what some people forget when advising you can screen your big ship with a CR-90 or even a raider is that you can Alpha strike the screening ship if you overextend it rather easily. Several times I've killed flanking Raider or CR-90 then turned in on turn 2 or turn 3 to the rear of the big target. To effectively screen you need the ship very close and slightly behind your big target. blowing up the corvette also really helps in the activation game the next turn. The only real option is to have around 6 bombers with intel support sitting  next to your big target ready to hit Demo after it does its first attack and hope you can kill it with one bombing wave.

[RogueCommander 236]

"... If you cannot position your own ships/squadrons to cover possible move areas for Demolisher, that is not a game balance issue, that is a player issue."

Yep. That must be it. >end sarcasm<

People have generally come to terms with what Demolisher is and how to approach it, but you'd have to be delusional to suggest that it's not at all OP. It freely gets around a significant mechanic that every other ship is bound by.

Edited April 4, 2016 by RogueCommander

[Drasnighta 26,831]

"... If you cannot position your own ships/squadrons to cover possible move areas for Demolisher, that is not a game balance issue, that is a player issue."

Yep. That must be it.

People have generally come to terms with what Demolisher is and how to approach it, but you'd have to be delusional to suggest that it's not at all OP. It freely gets around a significant mechanic that every other ship is bound by.

 

Freely, is of course, at the cost of 10 points at a minimum.

[TheEasternKing 607]

"... If you cannot position your own ships/squadrons to cover possible move areas for Demolisher, that is not a game balance issue, that is a player issue."

Yep. That must be it. >end sarcasm<

People have generally come to terms with what Demolisher is and how to approach it, but you'd have to be delusional to suggest that it's not at all OP. It freely gets around a significant mechanic that every other ship is bound by.

 

Way to quote me out of context, I was specifically talking about using low cost ships, so when Demolisher swoops in to kill one, you have the rest in positions to kill it, and I'm sorry if that some how offends you, but that is exactly how I lose my Demolisher 99% of the time, because there is no good place to move it to afterwards, which is EXACTLY how you deal with Demolisher.

 

Unless you outbid and out activate, then you can move and double tap Demolisher and kill it before it gets to do anything.

 

Also you chose to ignore the fact you can double tap, I have played my 5 ship fleet, and Demolisher did nothing, yet I tabled my opponent inside 5 rounds, with a non demolisher Gladiator, and 3 Raider I's.

 

Have you been on the receiving end of a 12 dice double tap from Avenger? have you seen what that ship can do triggering its own OLP, then 8 dice with no def tokens and XX-9s, it's not pretty either.

 

Without Demolisher my 5 ship fleet would still work just fine, it just means I'd need to change my strat around some, but having the ability to get an extra shot in is not what my fleets success hinges upon, it hinges upon massive damage from double tapping ships, usually my Demolisher gets to fire once, then it has to fly off, but strangely enough that is exactly how the rest of the fleet works, jump in end of round, go first, jump out. The only time this doesn't work is when people have no where safe for me to jump out to, then it's sacrifice a ship to kill a ship time.

Edited April 4, 2016 by TheEasternKing

[RogueCommander 236]

"... If you cannot position your own ships/squadrons to cover possible move areas for Demolisher, that is not a game balance issue, that is a player issue."

Yep. That must be it.

People have generally come to terms with what Demolisher is and how to approach it, but you'd have to be delusional to suggest that it's not at all OP. It freely gets around a significant mechanic that every other ship is bound by.

 

Freely, is of course, at the cost of 10 points at a minimum.

Yes. Freely is probably not the right word.

[TheEasternKing 607]

 

 

"... If you cannot position your own ships/squadrons to cover possible move areas for Demolisher, that is not a game balance issue, that is a player issue."

Yep. That must be it.

People have generally come to terms with what Demolisher is and how to approach it, but you'd have to be delusional to suggest that it's not at all OP. It freely gets around a significant mechanic that every other ship is bound by.

 

Freely, is of course, at the cost of 10 points at a minimum.

Yes. Freely is probably not the right word.

 

 

Calling people delusional is probably not the right word either.

 

Is Ackbar OP?

Is Rhymer OP?

Are TRC OP with the proliferation of Evade Tokens on Rebel ships?

Are TRC in combination with Home One OP? guaranteed Accuracy, guaranteed 2 damage, plus on average another 2 damage, so 4 damage with an Accuracy per CR90 A, and only one Imperial ship gets to use ECM out of 8, so the other 7 are SOL, there goes their braces for the entire game.

Are APT OP in conjunction with Dodonna?

 

Is Adar+Independence+Yavaris+Keyan OP? 

Or how About Adar+Yavaris +Han Solo, Shoot twice, shoot again with Rogue, Shoot again at the start of next round before anyone can do anything, 4 shots from Han before anything else does a thing.

 

I can go on and on with things that are powerful, and difficult to deal with.

[Overdawg 349]

My issue with the Demolisher is it breaks the one thing that sets Armada apart from most other miniatures I have played and that is the shoot than move mechanic.  I am not arguing that there are not good upgrades for the Rebels but I rarely if ever see a decent imperial build without it.  I see lots of builds without Ackbar, TRCs, Dodonna and even Rhymer.

[DUR 885]

community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/203491-the-clonisher-an-analysis-of-threat-radius

 

deja vu!  Cheers mates, hope y'all think of something other than saying "ye skillz be not mad enough and I bite my thumb at thee!"

 

While there are other pretty tough combos out there, I think the clonisher tripple tap has the added advantage of simply being demoralizing.  Some definite shock and awe tactics otherwise not possible with fireballs, ackbar, or anything else in the game at the moment.

 

A summary of the above thread: either count on the Demolisher pilot being retarded and flying into your delicious firepower/bombers, or take Rieekan, or underbid.  I.e. not anything particularly useful

Edited April 4, 2016 by DUR

[Ginkapo 9,320]

My issue with the Demolisher is it breaks the one thing that sets Armada apart from most other miniatures I have played and that is the shoot than move mechanic.  I am not arguing that there are not good upgrades for the Rebels but I rarely if ever see a decent imperial build without it.  I see lots of builds without Ackbar, TRCs, Dodonna and even Rhymer.

 

Avenger is OP too, its just people havent realised yet.

As is Vader given how much people are spending on rerolls without just taking him...

 

But hey, early days.

[Snipafist 7,536]

While there are other pretty tough combos out there, I think the clonisher tripple tap has the added advantage of simply being demoralizing.  Some definite shock and awe tactics otherwise not possible with fireballs, ackbar, or anything else in the game at the moment.

 

A summary of the above thread: either count on the Demolisher pilot being retarded and flying into your delicious firepower/bombers, or take Rieekan, or underbid.  I.e. not anything particularly useful

Edit: Incorrect reading/assumption on my part. My bad.

 

Edited April 4, 2016 by Snipafist

[Drasnighta 26,831]

We all seem to Fight the Futile Fights, eh, Snipafist?  

[CenterPoint 268]

personally if you want to avoid the triple tap, pay the points to go first. 

 

i have run a 184 point list, and i haven't gone second with it yet. (i also play rebs)

 

if you pay the points then you triple tap with a mc30 reds then blacks x2. 

maybe not as potent as the demolisher's x3, but trc's definitely even that out a lot. 

Edited April 4, 2016 by CenterPoint

[ianediger 1,345]

 

i have run a 184 point list, and i havent gone second with it yet. (i also play rebs)

[snip] 

Well, with that sort of bid, I'd expect you to get to choose!

[Madaghmire 7,274]

I bring a single cr90b, naked, and han solo. I was considering dropping han down to a generic yt-2400 but then I like "c'mon man! Spend the points! YOLO!"

Haven't gone second once with this list. Definetely the right call sticking with Han.