Anti-Triple-Tap Strategies

[shmitty 3,315]

Like a lot of folks on here, I often spend idle moments thinking on Armada strategies. Well, as I've had the flu the passed couple of days there's been some time for thinking.

So, I've been thinking on the Demolisher triple-tap. (Moving last with Demolisher and then double attacking at the top of the next turn.). It's pretty brutal and with practice, pretty reliable too. Looking at recent tournament reports it's also getting to be as common as an Ackbar conga, but with better results.

Really it's been around since Wave 1, but has taken off recently. I expect it to be a dominant fleet archetype at Regionals. High bid, high activations, and a Demolisher built for murdering. There really isn't a ship out there that can reliably survive the triple-tap. And it's no fun to play hoping your opponent rolls poorly for you to have a chance.

So what are the strategies against the build?

Go 1st - if you can outbid your opponent, you can go first and have pretty much shut the list down. Demolisher shouldn't get to triple-tap while going second unless you really screw up. This is unfortunately an unreliable strategy. If you are counting on this and get outbid, you will lose. In mirror matches I expect there will a lot of Demolisher vs Demolisher fights going to the 1st player with the greater bid. How much is enough bid? It's really hard to say, which is why I wouldn't bet my strategy on it.

And there has to be a way to beat Demolisher while going second, right?

Out Activate Him - This is a more reliable, but less effective approach. The really good Triple-Tap lists that I'm seeing (i.e. Clontroper5s) have 5 activations. That means you will need at least 5 yourself to make it work. Each round you would have to ensure that your ships end out of Demolishers pounce range. Then the last one can take a shot before scooting away itself. It can prevent the triple-tap up until you lose a ship, which is very possible given that you would have light ships that Demolisher can one-shot let alone the rest of his fleet. You could also gain this advantage if you quickly kill Demolisher's accompanying ships. This strategy doesn't beat Demolisher, it just makes it tougher on your opponent. And it really limits your feet build options.

I like playing high activation fleets, but they aren't for everyone. What else is there?

Squadrons - lots and lots of squadrons. This is more theoretical as I've not seen it done. But if you had a large ball of squadrons that you kept between you and Demolisher, you could use it to punish it. The ideal strategy would possibly be to wait until the squadron phase after Demolisher has pounced. Then attack it with a large group of Rogues or squads boosted by Ryhmer. This should be more reliable than jumping it earlier as you are less likely to have your own squads pinned or tied up. Of course, if you don't bring enough firepower to kill Demolisher in one go, you will lose a ship to the Triple-Tap. Might be more effective once the Flotillas and Bomber Control Center are out.

Objective Points - It should be possible to score enough points with objectives to offset Demolishers advantages. High scoring objectives are your friends here. Combine this with the other approaches to make the Demolisher player regret going first.

Advanced Projectors - This is the most helpful anti-Demolisher upgrade out there. It takes 23 points of damage to kill an ISD or MC-80. With APs, Demolisher has to do all 23. Honestly, with Engine Techs and ramming it is still well within reach for it to do just that. Given how badly the ubiquitous XI7s nerd APs this isn't a broad strategy, but it is the most effective upgrade. If I was building a ship to try and take the triple-tap and survive I'd definitely include Advanced Projectors.

So there are some things you can do in fleet construction to help out, but what about tactics? Is there anything that is effective regardless of fleet composition?

Maybe....

It is important to know the pounce range of a Demolisher with Engine Techs. It is longer than you expect. It is significantly longer than long range shooting. Only squadrons can reach it when it isn't in pounce range. It would take perfect attack rolls from 7 TIE Bombers to kill it in one attack from the front arc. That's a lot! And very unlikely to work.

I think the best hope is to move perpendicular to Demolisher and try to control the range while gunning for the rest of the fleet. If something is going to get triple-tapped make sure the exit vector for Demolisher takes it out of the rest of the game and limits the damage it can do.

So, bid lower, out activate, or pray.

What am I missing? There must be something, I am pretty ill after all. I'm pretty good at this game, but can't conceive a reliable tactic for countering a highly skilled Demolisher player with high activations and a large point bid. I can counter Ackbar gunlines, Fireballs, and Rieekian zombies with just about any fleet, but not this one. I'm starting to count myself among the folks that think the card needs a nerf.

[cynanbloodbane 3,435]

B-wings Yavaris combo, with Independence to slingshot them onto position. I have yet to face of against Demolisher, but it has killed ISDs for me, so I am confident it would work.

[Snipafist 7,536]

It's tough to get enough squadrons on a Demolisher to completely stop it in one turn, so while squadrons in the long run are workable, they won't prevent it from blowing up the first target. Of all the options you presented, competing on activations does help (which means bringing 5+ activations yourself so you can at least activate the last ship to pop the Demolisher at the end of the turn). Bidding lower just puts yourself in an escalating bid war with activation fleets that only really hurts just you and the other bid-war fleets while those sticking closer to 400 profit from the rest of you fighting amongst yourselves.

 

Forcing a piece trade is likely the most reliable strategy but it gets difficult to act out once you get down to specifics. This relies on understanding when the Demolisher is going to pounce and where it can escape to afterwards. You can force it to either hold off or suffer a reasonable chance of being destroyed in turn by keeping a backup ship to pop it. Typically when I get my Demolisher going, it can run off to an area behind the enemy fleet to regroup and kill again. Even a single ship waiting back there (+squadrons, perhaps) can cause serious problems with that plan. It's not perfect, mind you, as it assumes that:

A) You can spare the ship to be an anti-Demolisher reserve

B) That ship can actually do the job of killing the Demolisher (both in terms of its offensive output and your ability to estimate where Demolisher will be, thus determining the reserve ship's positioning)

C) The Demolisher still didn't come out ahead in the piece trade anyways

 

I love the Demolisher but I'm also coming around to feeling like its too good of a title that warps the meta (and this isn't sour grapes from someone sick of facing it, this is an observation from winning lots of games with it). A lot of the Imperial titles are poor, though, so I always feel iffy about proposing or supporting a nerf to the one that is just flat-out great. If we're going down the "what I'd do" rabbit hole, I'd likely support one of the following:

1) An Imperial Assault-style change where players can pass when they're facing an opponent with more remaining activations with them, so as to diminish (but not remove!) the value of large activation counts in getting in a last+first activation.

2) An errata to Demolisher that restricted it to making a single attack in the turn after it used the Demolisher ability (this would essentially make using the Demolisher's ability use up both 1 attack in the current turn and 1 attack from next turn for the very strong benefit of 1 attack after moving). The Demolisher would still be exceptionally strong against small ships and some medium ships but wouldn't be able to sling adequate dice at heavier ships to handle them all by itself.

Edited April 4, 2016 by Snipafist

[Irokenics 1,365]

I counter with the 2nd player 'choice force' on the 1st player. Basically if you can foresee demolisher coming in last on one of your ships you move a ship killer of your own into atk range of one of their ships.

There is also the 2nd player quadruple tap strategy!

[Reinholt 1,719]

B-wings Yavaris combo, with Independence to slingshot them onto position. I have yet to face of against Demolisher, but it has killed ISDs for me, so I am confident it would work.

 

This is not the correct solution.

 

Durability is not the issue for Demolisher, it is maneuverability. You need to be able to kill something that hits like an ISD, but moves like a CR90. The problem is not making the hits stick. It's delivering them at all.

 

In terms of counters, I would suggest there are another two pieces that were left out of the initial discussion by Shmitty:

• Rogues (either YT-2400s in size or, more likely, Firesprays with Rhymer)
• Rieekan

I think if we are talking about countering Demolisher, both of those bring things to the table not available in any other format that greatly increase the odds of having a counter-play.

 

Edit: My prediction is that we see at least one list at Regionals with a 25+ point bid using Demolisher and 4 raiders.

Edited April 4, 2016 by Reinholt

[Caldias 2,209]

I think that's the right thing is to set up a piece trade like Snipafist suggested, and also (if you can) set up what Irokenics suggests in forcing the opponent to lose a ship as well.  In fact, most of my going second strategy involves setting up a choice where we are going to have two destroyed ships in trade, although it is much easier to guarantee a ship's destruction with Demolisher.

 

It hasn't been mentioned, but making sure each objective in your list generates points for you and is good for your list is also an important step in lessening the sting of Demolisher (and being second player in general)

Edited April 4, 2016 by Caldias

[shmitty 3,315]

Good call on Rieekan. He probably is the best counter out there and I missed him. I personally haven't used him yet, but can see the possibilities. It would certainly put you in a position to be more aggressive about hunting Demolisher.

[Trizzo2 419]

Demolisher is not OP nor in need of Errata. I'm not trying to sound abrasive to Snipa, you cleary outplayed players who won their games, but if the second list you played won their game with all of the questionable choices/builds you yourself pointed out is this a fair evaluation of the title. Triple ISD no squadrons? Is this list good for anything expect hoping to get lucky in their matchups?

Anyways...My Imp Plan for Triple-Tap-Glad:

1) Rouge Squadrons/Kill Raiders

2) Objective Point Punishment

3) Deployment/Position to punish/don't fly fast

1) Rouge/Rhymer/Intel. Rhymer/x2 Firespray/Slave 1 is the bomber part of my ball. I could go x4 FS, drop Rhymer but i kept it because Rhymer because a) it lets you shoot early b) keeps you out of Raider point defense c) chases down fleeing Glads. Against the Clon5 (havn't played a Snipa GenCon) I aim to kill the Raiders. If you have 4 Ship Bombers killing 1 Raider neuters their activation advantage. Killing 2 puts you in front. I usally play 3 Ship/Full Bomber (maybe a mistake in this meta), but killing 2 Raiders isn't hard with Rouge Bombers supported by a ship. They will be in Range because Raiders need to be in the fight to assit the Demo/Glads otherwise you can put 3 ships on 1 Demo. But plently of people still lead the Demolisher. If it's the spearhead you can focus it.

2) Choose 3 "Points Only" objectives:

Assault: Most Wanted/Advanced Gunnery. Most Wanted their Demolisher. A 139 point Demolisher is a bit less than your ISD/MC80, which if it is Assault Cruiser/ISD Motti it won't die to a Triple Tap (unless they flip lots of APT Struc damage). Gunnery can work in some builds where you name a support ship and not your best ship. Having a VSD with 12 front Dice support your ISD will punish anything that flys in close.

Defense: Fire Lanes/Contested Outpost. Set these up and let them try to push you off them. Fly at speed 1. Get 40 (CP) or 90 (FL) point buffer by turn 2. Raiders/Glads are terrible at contended these.

Navigation: Superior Poistions. Get an amazing counter Demolisher deployment, let them come to you and Bomber the rear arcs. Another point blowout.

3) Deployment is one of the most important considerations. Aim to have 6 deployments (effectively 7 as second player) so even with 5 Ships/x4 Ties I still get the final deployment. I put my most expensive Capital ship (aka:bait) well away from Demolisher so it has to a) fly through it's own fleet b) can't effectively flank me. I also fly a LOW speed. Speed 1 only. On turn 1, even 2, i might even go to 0 for a turn. Just to delay the Demo strike and give the bombers more time.

Then in combat set up to punish other ships/bombers if Demo activates you kill other things/kill Demo after and aim to even out the score with Objectives if the Glad goes full ham.

Edited April 4, 2016 by Trizzo2

[Snipafist 7,536]

I counter with the 2nd player 'choice force' on the 1st player. Basically if you can foresee demolisher coming in last on one of your ships you move a ship killer of your own into atk range of one of their ships.

There is also the 2nd player quadruple tap strategy!

This is definitely doable starting on around the 3rd turn usually. You can "fork" the opponent into choosing which piece he'll be sacrificing. On the second turn (which is usually when Demolisher is starting its attack run culminating with a third turn destroyed ship on the first activation) it's generally a lot less reliable.

I also wouldn't count on anyone flying into double-arc range and then remaining there next turn .

 

B-wings Yavaris combo, with Independence to slingshot them onto position. I have yet to face of against Demolisher, but it has killed ISDs for me, so I am confident it would work.

 

This is not the correct solution.

 

Durability is not the issue for Demolisher, it is maneuverability. You need to be able to kill something that hits like an ISD, but moves like a CR90. The problem is not making the hits stick. It's delivering them at all.

 

In terms of counters, I would suggest there are another two pieces that were left out of the initial discussion by Shmitty:

• Rogues (either YT-2400s in size or, more likely, Firesprays with Rhymer)
• Rieekan

I think if we are talking about countering Demolisher, both of those bring things to the table not available in any other format that greatly increase the odds of having a counter-play.

I agree that Yavaris + B-Wings isn't as good against the new-age 5-activation fleets as it was against the old-school Gencon Special lists. Back in wave one, Imperials usually didn't out-activate Rebels and so the Gladiators were usually left in a compromising position for a turn whereby B-Wings could blow them up pretty reliably (with the Yavaris). Nowadays it can still be done, but not as reliably.

 

Rieekan and Rogues (particularly Firesprays) are definitely both good counters. Beware of Instigator tying up a Fireball cloud on a crucial turn, though.

 

It hasn't been mentioned, but making sure each objective in your list generates points for you and is good for your list is also an important step in lessening the sting of Demolisher (and being second player in general)

Absolutely true. Solid objective choice is very important for taking some of the wind out of the sails of bid-war 5-activation fleets. It's not a direct Demolisher counter, mind you, but it is an indirect Demolisher counter in a fashion.

 

Good call on Rieekan. He probably is the best counter out there and I missed him. I personally haven't used him yet, but can see the possibilities. It would certainly put you in a position to be more aggressive about hunting Demolisher.

Rieekan is amazing because the 5-activation fleet is generally relying on avoiding serious counterattacks due to activation manipulation and destroying ships before they can retort. Rieekan allows destroyed ships to be their own "reserve ships" to help piece-trade for Demolisher and Rieekan has his own weird activation manipulation shenanigans to respond with. He's hands-down the strongest Rebel commander against a 5-activation fleet, with Mon Mothma coming in second (due to being able to reroll the hit+crit black dice the fleet is aggressively fishing for).

 

Demolisher is not OP nor in need of Errata. I'm not trying to sound abrasive, you cleary outplayed players who won their games, but if the second list you played won their game with all of the questionable choices/builds you yourself pointed out is this a fair evaluation of the title. Triple ISD no squadrons? Is even a good list to fight anything?

I mean for what it's worth, that fleet got to table #1 by round 3 somehow (the games I'd seen it in earlier usually seemed to be bloodbaths in the middle of the table versus other fleets running primarily large and medium ships, a setup that three ISDs can handle pretty well). It definitely wasn't a great build versus a 5-activation fleet, though. I'd also note that I didn't only play my 5-activation fleet at Adepticon. I've been playing it or some close variant of it for months now. Demolisher is pretty great*. I'm not going to run around aggressively petitioning for an errata or creating click-bait I HAVE STRONG DEMOLISHER FEELINGS threads, but if/when some kind of errata (either direct or indirect) nerfs it a bit I'm also not going to be surprised. I can't think of any other title that warps the game quite so much and when used well it can be very discouraging to face, which creates a lot of complaints about it.

* great enough that if you're running 1+ Gladiators and none of them are Demolisher, I feel pretty confident that your list would be better by finding 10 points to make one of them Demolisher regardless of how they're outfitted - I can't think of any other title for any other ship class that's such an auto-include.

Edit: typo, making sentences clearer.

Edited April 4, 2016 by Snipafist

[shmitty 3,315]

Piece trades work and are a good general strategy that anyone can use. The tricky bit is the Demolisher player should be more than happy trade their Raiders for whatever you've got. It doesn't work if you don't bring some cheap stuff yourself.

Using Rogues to hunt the Raiders is a good plan. You can eat away the action advantage that way, which makes a huge difference.

[clontroper5 4,232]

****WARNING****

 

 

 

THE IMPERIAL INVESTIGATIVE SERVICES HAVE FOUND THIS THREAD TO BE OPPOSED TO THE INTERESTS OF THE EMPIRE

 

 

 

ALL CONTRIBUTORS WILL BE HUNTED DOWN AND PLACED IN REFORMATION FACILITIES
 

 

THIS THREAD WILL BE DESTROYED

[Gottmituns205 1,601]

^ *popcorn* 

[Blail Blerg 7,585]

One of the best counters to triple tap is that fact that most people aren't clontroper5.   That list isn't easy!  

And 5 activations basically means Raiders at this point.  Which thankfully also get one shot by like everything that generates a single accuracy.  

 

I think one of the harder ones will actually be 4 activations.  That could be more common.  

 

As for squadrons:  you need a lot and you need 2 turns of bombing to do it.  First turn screen him from closing in.  Second turn, bomb.  Third turn, kill it.  You need to delay his jump for 3 turns.  

[Trizzo2 419]

Demolisher is not OP nor in need of Errata. I'm not trying to sound abrasive, you cleary outplayed players who won their games, but if the second list you played won their game with all of the questionable choices/builds you yourself pointed out is this a fair evaluation of the title. Triple ISD no squadrons? Is even a good list to fight anything?

 

I mean for what it's worth, that fleet got to table #1 by round 3 somehow (the games I'd seen it in earlier usually seemed to be bloodbaths in the middle of the table versus other fleets running primarily large and medium ships, a setup that three ISDs can handle pretty well). It definitely wasn't a great build versus a 5-activation fleet, though. I'd also note that I didn't only play my 5-activation fleet at Adepticon. I've been playing it or some close variant of it for months now. Demolisher is pretty great*. I'm not going to run around aggressively petitioning for an errata or creating click-bait I HAVE STRONG DEMOLISHER FEELINGS threads, but if/when some kind of errata (either direct or indirect) nerfs it a bit I'm also not going to be surprised. I can't think of any other title that warps the game quite so much and when used well it can be very discouraging to face, which creates a lot of complaints about it.

* great enough that if you're running 1+ Gladiators and none of them are Demolisher, I feel pretty confident that your list would be better by finding 10 points to make one of them Demolisher regardless of how they're outfitted - I can't think of any other title for any other ship class that's such an auto-include.

Edit: typo, making sentences clearer.

 

 

I totally agree. There is no reason never to run Demolisher. You are worse off if you don't. It pretty much auto. I run it as second player. Warps the rules. But does it need an nerf? I don't think so.

 

I can only go off my anecdotes but the amount that it is played compared to the amount that it wins suggests it doesn't need nerfing. Mind you more play Demolisher in X Imp lists compared to GenCon/Clon variations. When they get favorable matchups they can go ham...

 

But I think like the oringal GenCon its achilles heel is matchups.

Edited April 4, 2016 by Trizzo2

[Snipafist 7,536]

Piece trades work and are a good general strategy that anyone can use.

That is true no doubt. As I've said before, I think the 5-ship fleets are a meta response to the popularity of Ackbar in particular and to a lesser-extent the similar 2-3 activation count "lots of upgrades, few ships" Motti-style lists too. Those Assault Frigates are easy prey and most of those upgrades (ECMs, Gunnery Teams, XI7s) won't regularly make much of a difference. If I trade my 83-point Demolisher for your 100+ point Assault Frigate, that's still a pretty good trade, especially if it required holding another Assault Frigate in reserve to act as the Demolisher-swatter.

 

The tricky bit is the Demolisher player should be more than happy trade their Raiders for whatever you've got. It doesn't work if you don't bring some cheap stuff yourself.

I think it's important to distinguish between forking and piece-trading as I think you're referring to forking.

 

Forking is putting your opponent in a position where they get to choose which of your two (or more!) pieces they take. It's originally a chess term for when at the end of your move you threaten multiple pieces at once and your opponent can only respond by taking a single action, which won't be able to save all of those pieces no matter what he does. A good example of this would be as second player you move an ISD into front-arc range of two already-activated CR90s who were grouped too close together - your opponent next turn will get to activate first and effectively gets to choose which CR90 gets to live. You can do this across a wider spectrum by having several of your ships threatening several other ships at once, making activation order in the upcoming turn extremely important for which ships (probably) live and which ships (probably) die.

 

Piece trading is a term I first came across in Warmachine, but there's a similar term in chess as well. The basic idea is your models are set up in such a position that if an opponent claims one of your models (ships), you can retort by claiming the attacker, effectively trading pieces. The goal, of course, is to come out at least equal if not ahead in the trade. This usually requires setting up support/reserve pieces to prosecute effectively, and the simple threat of piece-trading can cause a prospective attacker to back off until the response machinery has been dismantled or shuffled off elsewhere.

 

Getting back to the original comment you had, though, I agree. Setting up a fork where I need to decide between activating my Demolisher to wallop some poor ship then sail away at the expense of a cheapo Raider getting popped is somewhat helpful for the second player but not a difficult decision or a large sacrifice for me.

 

Using Rogues to hunt the Raiders is a good plan. You can eat away the action advantage that way, which makes a huge difference.

Absolutely agreed. The squadron mini-game is not one a 5-activation fleet plays well and Rogues(in this case, Firesprays in particular) are particularly competent at waiting it out until the squadron phase when it's their time to shine (although beware of Instigator!). Raiders are definitely easier prey than Gladiators in that regard (I'd estimate you'd need about 2-3 more bomber attacks to vaporize a Gladiator compared to a Raider, many variables notwithstanding), but Gladiators tend to pull more weight than Raiders do. It's a tough choice. Gimping the activations definitely helps, though. If you can get activation parity FAST against a 5-activation fleet, you can push back and maybe even regain the tempo.

[Amanal 2,557]

Han Solo is a fun choice. He does what Demolisher does only better in terms of activation, he will if he gets his double tap off drop a shield.

[Gottmituns205 1,601]

Demolisher is a little...shady in my book when you basically x-mas tree it, your foe runs Advanced Gunnery and you make Demolisher the objective ship.

 

Oh and when we're playing "Need for Screed" you just increase the hilarity when you land some serious pain on your foes flagship and all that Mon Montha BS goes right out the airlock.'

 

I ran Demolisher with ACM/Engine techs/Tactical Officer with a Victory 2 carrier build (with X17 and Gunnery team) and a lowly raider with Rhymer Ball and Vader with some Ties...and just had a field day when Demolisher was throwing out engine commands to tap that engine tech...

 

That boat can be mega shady when used in the right situation, but then again I've floored it when she's not used as part of a fleet...Demolisher is a rapier not a broadside it deals significant damage but when it starts getting a beat up...it falls fast. 

[tgall 796]

I ran a triple Glad and Raider list with a Demo at AdeptiCon, oddly with just a 7 point bid for going first, I was first player every round. It was crazy fun and ended up middle of the pack. Didn't see the final point scores tho. :-/

With all the ISD based lists on the Imperial side I was a little surprised not to see more high activation imperial lists. Maybe I was blind and just missed them.

I'm not sure what to make of the meta going into regionals. I'd use the force but being imperial I don't make much of those sorcerer ways.... Ack... Ack... Why am I chocking on my popcorn?

[Maturin 1,583]

Lando might help a bit. You let Demolisher roll its big attack, OE all the blacks, Screed whatever isn't a hit/crit...and then you make Demolisher reroll everything again.

Not a guarantee by a long shot, but it usually doesn't hurt worse than what Demolisher was originally going to serve out.

[TheEasternKing 607]

Demolisher is expensive, and costs a lot of points on a relatively weak ship, It's not impossible to one shot, and only really earns it points by killing something worth more than itself.

 

Rebels get a lot of very cheap ships, that can become very nasty with just one upgrade card, and a certain Admiral.

[Amanal 2,557]

Demolisher is expensive, and costs a lot of points on a relatively weak ship, It's not impossible to one shot, and only really earns it points by killing something worth more than itself.

 

Rebels get a lot of very cheap ships, that can become very nasty with just one upgrade card, and a certain Admiral.

 

I think based on my experience, you are underselling Demolisher and over selling the Rebels with ships that can get a side arc shot on Demolisher with or without that Admiral.

 

Demolisher with Engine Techs can very quickly engage and get 3 shots and disengage to a safe arc. Then over 2 turns re-engage and kill another ship. I think if you are finding that you are killing Demolisher in one shot then your opponent needs to do some more time in the simulator.

 

7-8CR30's works not because of any great reason other than you can just plain and simple win by attrition. You lose 1-2 of them after the 5th activation then your last 2-3 activations can deal 9-18 damage and 2-3 rams perhaps. I am torn between this idea resulting in a headlong charge or something slightly more controlled. (2 rows of 4 ships each traveling speed 4). I am also not too sure if this list will win games but not win tournaments. However, if you play Demolisher and lose a game or two to players with such lists it may just be the meta shake up that has players pack up Demolisher and take ISD's, VSD,s and Home One's to kill off the swarms.

 

I played a list with 3 MC30 Scout Frigates on the weekend and felt I was moving in the right direction. I have yet to try it but 3 Torpedo Frigates with Rieekan/Mon Montha and Odrnance Experts and APT with Han Solo, Jan Ors, and 6 YT2400's or I can take 4 ships and drop Jan and 3 x YT-2400's. Note that I could also drop Jan and throw in 2 other ships with Intel, which are just there to allow me to move the other squadrons after they have been engaged.

 

I think here with the 3 ship list Mon Montha may be the choice as I I would only use a dead ship if it hadn't activated, in the 4 ship list he may be the better choice as I will be activating last, for as long as we trade ships.

Edited April 4, 2016 by Amanal

[LTD 2,241]

With the triple tap Demolisher, the player also gets first move in the fighter phase. Throw in two fast squadrons to guard Demo, and the rogue/bomber response is seriously hampered.

[Ginkapo 9,320]

Han massively pulls his weight here. Lets be honest, you probably forced a trade which damaged the demo but didnt kill it. A Han double tap and chase is painful to finish.

Ive also found Han to be a very good sheepdog, pushing enemy ships towards my large broadsides. Really not sure why people prefer being hammered to bits than taking a couple of potshots from Han...

[miferr 179]

I personally haven't played against a fleet like this. Does the Demolisher player typically do nav commands the whole time to trigger engine techs? I was thinking that tractor beams would be an interesting counter, but even if Demolisher is at speed 1, it could nav to speed 2 and engine techs every time, effectively moving speed 3 anyway.

 

Still, maybe it would make a difference. The tractor beams would need to be on a ship that's not getting targeted first so it can get in range. I was thinking something like multiple raiders with tractor beams.

[Reinholt 1,719]

With the triple tap Demolisher, the player also gets first move in the fighter phase. Throw in two fast squadrons to guard Demo, and the rogue/bomber response is seriously hampered.

 

Intel and/or Han Solo. Very small fighter screens are useless, and if they take a large fighter screen, they open up the possibility of losing as many points as Demo is worth instead and are running naked raiders (as another strategy is stall Demo and just destroy the rest of the list, depending on how fast your own ships are).