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megatrons2nd

Barrel rolling, and touching

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I had, in a game last night, an interesting Barrel Roll situation come up.  I was under the guns of two ships, and these two ships were close together, I wanted to Barrel Roll to the space in between them.  The problem was, that in doing so my base fit perfectly between them, no overlapping, but the base touched both ships.  I deferred to the more experienced player, who said that it was not an allowed move, but it did make me curious, so I am asking here.  Would that move have been an allowed move?

Edited by megatrons2nd

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Imagine you barrel roll to the left and back, and there's plenty of space.  You barrel roll to the left and front, and it's blocked by another ship.

 

Now, at some point between those two placements, there is a point where you can make a valid barrel roll that is touching (English language word) the other ship, but not touching (rules definition,, always resulting from overlap).

 

QED, it is possible to barrel roll into a touching (English language) position, and whomever told you it was impossible is flatly wrong.

 

On the other hand, if there is exactly one spot that you can barrel roll where you will be touching (English language), it is extremely unlikely that the move is actually valid, just mathematically speaking.  It's possible, and thus it's not disallowed, but it's just very, very unlikely that the ship actually slots into that perfect space without it, or the other ship(s), moving, even a tiny bit.

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I'm on my phone and too lazy to search out my standard spiel, but it boils down to this: "touching" is an unfortunate word to use, so when I teach new players I call it "greeblezork" instead. As thespaceinvader says, you can only get into a state of greeblezork by executing a maneuver that would cause an overlap.

There are a number of ways to end up in base-to-base contact with another ship without becoming greeblezorked, and performing a barrel roll is one of the easiest and most common.

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A caveat to the above answers - you can barel roll into physical contact with another model, but that is different from an overlap. If you overlap a ship, you cannot shoot at that ship. In the situation you are describing, you could barrel roll into physical contact with the other ships, but they could still shoot at you (and vice verse) because you did not overlap. (At least that is my understanding.)

Edited by headache62

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A caveat to the above answers - you can barel roll into physical contact with another model, but that is different from an overlap. If you overlap a ship, you cannot shoot at that ship. In the situation you are describing, you could barrel roll into physical contact with the other ships, but they could still shoot at you (and vice verse) because you did not overlap. (At least that is my understanding.)

I would have been in contact with both of their bases in the side arc, I was in the front arcs of both ships, and the space between them was actually the exact distance/width of a small ship base.  No moving of the opponents ships was necessary, it just dropped in, but it touched at least one of them and looked, to the naked eye, like both of them.  Good to know that it was a mistake, or misunderstanding of the rules for him.  Now I know, and knowing is half the battle.

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Learning when touching isn't "touching" is something that I believe everyone goes through.

 

If a BR would cause any kind of overlap on something then you can't do it.  On the other hand "fitting" means you can go in without causing any "touching" situations although you may be physically adjacent.

 

Now like Jeff mentions the chances of actually fitting perfectly between two ships on a physical board is slim.  Usually you would easily clear at least one of the ships with the imperfections of physical movement preventing a perfect fit.

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As touching is a game mechanic, I avoid using it in all othe circumstances during a game.

 

In your description, your ship is NOT touching. It is PHYSICALLY ADJACENT, but there is nothing in the rules against that. it is allowed, and ships that are physically adjacent may shoot each other UNLESS they are also touching as per the rules for resolving an overlap.

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Learning when touching isn't "touching" is something that I believe everyone goes through.

 

If a BR would cause any kind of overlap on something then you can't do it.  On the other hand "fitting" means you can go in without causing any "touching" situations although you may be physically adjacent.

 

Now like Jeff mentions the chances of actually fitting perfectly between two ships on a physical board is slim.  Usually you would easily clear at least one of the ships with the imperfections of physical movement preventing a perfect fit.

Yeah, I tend to find the....weird situations in games.  Just luck I guess, but odd situations happen to me all the time, no matter the game.

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Way, whoa, what? 

 

If the ships maneuver and touch each other then they are touching and cannot fire on each other. But a ship can barrel roll and still touch another ship?

 

Maybe it's late and I'm just confused.

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If the ships maneuver and touch each other then they are touching and cannot fire on each other. But a ship can barrel roll and still touch another ship?

 

If a ship performs a maneuver and overlaps another ship, they are considered "touching" and cannot attack each other.

 

But if you barrel roll in such a way as to make the ships be in physical contact without an overlap having occurred, then they are not considered "touching" and may attack one another freely.

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Way, whoa, what? 

 

If the ships maneuver and touch each other then they are touching and cannot fire on each other. But a ship can barrel roll and still touch another ship?

 

Maybe it's late and I'm just confused.

No.

 

Touching is a defined game term, and it's defined as the state left behind after a ship overlaps another ship during movement - you reverse the movement until the ships no longer overlap, put them down as close as possible to each other, and they're now Touching.

 

Barrel rolls can put bases into physical contact with one another, as long as the ship(s) not doing the rolling doesn't move, even the slightest tiny bit.  If the ship(s) not rolling have to move at all to accommodate the roll, it's not a legal roll.  If it doesn't, then it is a legal roll and the ships are not Touching, though they may be base to base with one another.

 

The easiest way to think about it is with the forward-back movement at the end of a barrel roll - you can slide your ship so that its base is in contact with the ship in front of it, but you can never overlap that ship, so they are never going to be Touching by the rules.

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