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SylinRhyas

Stop Saying Pay to Win!

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I keep hearing over and over again people saying that U-Boats are pay to win.  So, I decided to look up what it would cost if someone new to the game came in and just bought everything needed to buy the standard Trip U-Boats build.  Now this is costs from FFG and not other sites and it included the core set.  Then I compared it to what it would cost someone to build a typical Palp Aces build before wave 8 came out.  I even made sure to see that each build was made as cheaply as possible. 

 

Standard Trip U-Boats vs. Pre-Wave 8 Palp Aces w/ Vader

 

1              The Force Awakens Core Set $39.95 x 1 = $39.95

3              Punishing One $29.95 x 3 = $89.85

3              Dead Eye $14.95 x 3= $44.85

                (3 A-Wings or TAPs)

3              Plasma Torpedoes $0.00

                (Punishing One)

3              Extra Munitions $19.95 x 3 = $59.85

                (K-Wing or TIE Punisher)

3              Guidance Chips $0.00

                (Punishing One)

3              R4 Agromech $39.95 x 2 = $79.90

                (Most Wanted)

TOTAL        $314.40

 

1              The Force Awakens Core Set $39.95 x 1 = $39.95

1              Lambda-class Shuttle $29.95 x 1 = $29.95

1              TIE Interceptor $14.95 x 1 = $14.95

1              TIE Advanced $14.95 x 1 = $14.95

1              Emperor Palpatine $99.95 x 1 = $99.95

                (Imperial Raider)

1              Royal Guard TIE $29.95 x 1 = $29.95

                (Imperial Aces)

1              Push the Limit $0.00

                (A-Wing or Imperial Aces)

1              Stealth Device $14.95 x 1 = $14.95

                (Slave I or M3-A Interceptor)

1              Autothrusters $19.95 x 1 = $19.95

                (StarViper)

1              Veteran Instincts $29.95 x 1 = $29.95

                (Slave I or Millennium Falcon)

1              Engine Upgrade $0.00

    (Millennium Falcon or

    Hound’s Tooth)

1              TIE/x1 $0.00

                (Imperial Raider)

1              Advanced Targeting Computer $0.00

                (Imperial Raider)

TOTAL        $294.55

Difference $314.40 - $294.55 = $19.85

 

U-Boats cost a whooping $19.95 more and that's what's called pay to win???

 

Was Palp Aces w/ Vader pay to win too when they started being used?

I think people call it pay to win because all of a sudden on release day or soon after some of us (myself included) plopped down $90 for a new power list that we instantly had success with, whereas with Palp aces you had Soontir, a Lambda, and probably a TIE Advanced already so you already had the main components of it. Soontir was already being run so when Palp aces came along it wasn't seen as "Looks like /someone/ paid $100 to win" whereas buying 3 Jumpmasters required you to buy 3 new ships.

I don't think it's pay to win (well, this game does cost money and to a certain extent it is), or that U-Boats are more pay to win than many other lists. Don't quote me on this, but you could probably just buy 3 Jumpmasters and eBay the cards you need for cheap. R4 Agromechs and extra munitions and certainly the various torpedoes and Deadeye should be cheap cards. Like dual Aggressors you should just be able to buy 3 and have most of a list besides for a handful of cards.

 

I also don't think it's pay to win. S&V are a new faction, they will probably get the lions share of releases over the next few waves, so of course it means you will need to buy more of them as S&V are fairly limited in their options at the moment. I love S&V and would like to play them more, but as I have said elsewhere, they just don't have the options the Empire do, and who wants to play Rebels right?

 

right

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Was Palp Aces w/ Vader pay to win too when they started being used?

 

Pretty much, yes.

 

FFG deliberately packages good upgrades in otherwise hard-to-sell or expensive kits, in order to boost the sales of those kits. This is a known sales strategy.

Generally, I think X-Wing has the powerful combos divided in such a way, that both most lists are in the same general price range regardless of how effective they are. You wouldn't expect that if the game is 'pay to win'. But there can be an exception here and there; what struck me about OP is that Palpatine is a very effective card in a very expensive box. So there is at least a bit of pay-to-win in the supposed benchmark list.

What costs money in this game is getting the best combinations of cards. Few ships come with the cards that fit them perfectly.

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Pay to Win is from MMOs and F2Ps where most users have the same level and there are very powerful items behind a paywall. X-Wing is a piecemeal tabletop game, the term either doesn't apply or applies to everything. It doesn't translate.

 

As for the cards you want being in different sets, the very transferable nature of upgrade cards means the more you have, the more options are available to you. Yes, to run an Autothruster interceptor in a tournament you need a StarViper, but you also need a Firespray you might not otherwise want to run an Expose HWK.

 

The vast majority of card combinations are cross expansion by their very nature. The chances of the popular ones not being cross expansion is phenomenally small.

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*sigh*

The only time the term "pay to win" can ever be used is when the base game is free to play but paying will give you an advantage that non-paying customers/players cannot get.

And since you can't really play this game at all without paying, the entire argument falls flat.

Hell, if I play with the ships from the starter set (ie. just an x-wing or two TIE-fighters), that's still "pay to win" since I paid for the bloody game!

 

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End of the day it doesn't matter what you fly skill decides who'll win, if you mindlessly joust uboats you'll take a beating but if you employ some fancy flying they'll have a much tougher time.

If anything you should have sympathy for people that need to take quad TLT or u boats because they have to spend more than you to compete on a semi level playing field.

Palp aces may be tough to face but you can't accuse the people flying it of picking the easy option.

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I bought one core set and that is NOT enough to make the top cut at regionals, because of that I declare X-wing Pay2Win  :angry:

 

because one Core set is not enough to play a 100 point standard game :P 

 

You got 3 small bases, range rulers and a damage deck. Print out your tripple ace list, ignore the models and you are perfect for a 100 point list … just not for regionals with their silly "must own" rules ;-)

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*sigh*

The only time the term "pay to win" can ever be used is when the base game is free to play but paying will give you an advantage that non-paying customers/players cannot get.

And since you can't really play this game at all without paying, the entire argument falls flat.

Hell, if I play with the ships from the starter set (ie. just an x-wing or two TIE-fighters), that's still "pay to win" since I paid for the bloody game!

 

Or when it operates on an even level subscription with overpowered premium items.

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First time I've heard this game be refereed to as Pay to Win.

 

The Urban Dictionary defines the term as: 'Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying.'

 

I don't think that is a fair comparison at all. The closest comparison would be with collectible card games like Magic the Gathering. In X-wing there is a known quantity of items in each expansion and everyone that want can get each expansion, though it is by no means necessary for high level competitive play. With collectible card games you have to either rely on the ultimate Random Number Generator, ie life, to get the cards you want or pay ridiculously overcharged prices through unofficial outlets like Ebay in order to secure a winning deck. Sure, both costs money but I'm pretty sure which of them could be accurately be called Pay to Win.

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Was Palp Aces w/ Vader pay to win too when they started being used?

Pretty much, yes.

FFG deliberately packages good upgrades in otherwise hard-to-sell or expensive kits, in order to boost the sales of those kits. This is a known sales strategy.

Indeed.

I used to play Game of Thrones cards myself - same deal there funnily enough.

I wouldn't say it's "pay to win" as long as someone can still win with £80 worth of TIE fighters...

Triple Js aren't even THAT strong. They're popular enough because they're new, they're strong enough, and that's good - it means there will be more variety in a few months when the excitement over useful ordnance dies down.

Edited by Stu35

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Pay to Win simply isn't an applicable term. It's perjorative and that's about it. Might as well call it cheesy, it's got about as much actual meaning outside the insult.

 

What you mean is that you don't like that the new king of netlists requires you to buy three Jumpmasters. The actual components of it are in sensible places: Proton Torpedo is a core set card, R4 Agromech is in Most Wanted, the Scum starter set. The only component in a far flung place is Deadeye, and that's been sitting lonely and unwanted with the A-wing since Wave 2.

 

It's not daft to expect people who want to use three Jumpmasters to buy three Jumpmasters. And if you don't want to buy three Jumpmasters, think of something else.

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Pay to play, really. Just like any other game with multiple expansions or downloadable content.

Past the ship models though you don't have to buy other expansions to fly a list, just buy the cards you need on the secondary market for cheaper, or proxy.

Or learn how to beat Triple Potties with the ships you already have.

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If you haven't encountered at least one X-Wing player complaining that another player won only because they had better ships then you either haven't been playing X-Wing long or you play X-Wing in a remarkable (almost magical) community where everyone accepts the fact that sometimes you win and sometimes you lose in this game ... and it usually isn't because one person can afford better ships.

Just look at the lists from the Hoth Open. Sure, a player running a triple U-boat list won, but there were MULTIPLE players running triple U-boats that got knocked out of the competition MUCH earlier ... and knocked out by lists that were slightly less expensive to build. That appears to reinforce the theory that player skill and random luck are factors just as much as whether you can afford to build a specific list.

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Pay to play/win is fair in some cases, particularly as it relates to cards. I have no problemm with three U boats or needing multiple ships. I can build competitive lists with other ships, a single this or that, etc. However cards a different story. It is very difficult to build a high level competative list without cards from a epic ship. Yes it can be done but its not as easy. Just look at the number of championship lists that includes Palpatine, the stressbot, or C3PO just to name a few.

All they need to do is offer the non epic cards included in epic ships as a stand alone expansion pack. Then I would have no issues with the game or FFG sales strategy.

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Come on guys lets not all blow wind up each other's skirt, there is a certain amount of pay to win. The uboats was a well talked about and defined list proven to win on vassel months before the ships got released. If on launch or within a couple of weeks of launch you got 3 jump masters you only did it to win! We can all pretend that you guys didn't do that but ya did. The same can be said for those who never ran an interceptor,lambda or tie advance in a tournament before the buff but at least most people did have them.

How many people brought 3 yt2400 on release day, next to 0 I'm sure, you get my point. Why would people do this because there is a skill element involved with xwing? To take out the random elements as much as possible and the ease of use, the side benefit to this list is the ease of developing a counter to the counter.

The big difference with this is the very low price point to get a power list, compared to say 40k at your 250$ mark quoted your only just scratching the surface of a top meta list.

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Any list in this game is "Pay-2-Win".  You have to buy everything unless you're fortunate enough to have everything gifted/given to you.  Do I think the list is undercosted for its utility?  Perhaps.  But I'm not going to disparage the people choosing to use it in the competitive scene.  If anything that should be aimed at FFG for not properly play testing and allowing this list to exist.

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Come on guys lets not all blow wind up each other's skirt, there is a certain amount of pay to win.

 

No, there isn't. The term doesn't apply to this distribution model.

 

People buying ships to build netlists because they think they're better happens. The upgrades in the current community favoured setup for a ship being in multiple expansions happens. Pay to Win simply isn't an applicable term, it either applies to everything or nothing in this model. You might as well say X-Wing has a disco fever problem, it'd make about as much sense.

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Come on guys lets not all blow wind up each other's skirt, there is a certain amount of pay to win.

 

No, there isn't. The term doesn't apply to this distribution model.

 

People buying ships to build netlists because they think they're better happens. The upgrades in the current community favoured setup for a ship being in multiple expansions happens. Pay to Win simply isn't an applicable term, it either applies to everything or nothing in this model. You might as well say X-Wing has a disco fever problem, it'd make about as much sense.

if your wanting to go by exact terminology maybe not, but we all understand perfectly well what the term is implying. Trying to make out like it didn't happen with the uboats is living in a fantasy world or you got 3 yourself and are being defensive

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Ahole thoughts moment, sorry not ment to be super serious

At my local store, we have this thing called "friends". There really cool because they let people borrow upgrades if they need them for events and stuff like that so people don't have to shell out all the moneys

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