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SylinRhyas

Stop Saying Pay to Win!

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I keep hearing over and over again people saying that U-Boats are pay to win.  So, I decided to look up what it would cost if someone new to the game came in and just bought everything needed to buy the standard Trip U-Boats build.  Now this is costs from FFG and not other sites and it included the core set.  Then I compared it to what it would cost someone to build a typical Palp Aces build before wave 8 came out.  I even made sure to see that each build was made as cheaply as possible. 

 

Standard Trip U-Boats vs. Pre-Wave 8 Palp Aces w/ Vader

 

1              The Force Awakens Core Set $39.95 x 1 = $39.95

3              Punishing One $29.95 x 3 = $89.85

3              Dead Eye $14.95 x 3= $44.85
                (3 A-Wings or TAPs)

3              Plasma Torpedoes $0.00
                (Punishing One)

3              Extra Munitions $19.95 x 3 = $59.85
                (K-Wing or TIE Punisher)

3              Guidance Chips $0.00

                (Punishing One)

3              R4 Agromech $39.95 x 2 = $79.90
                (Most Wanted)

TOTAL        $314.40

 

1              The Force Awakens Core Set $39.95 x 1 = $39.95

1              Lambda-class Shuttle $29.95 x 1 = $29.95

1              TIE Interceptor $14.95 x 1 = $14.95

1              TIE Advanced $14.95 x 1 = $14.95

1              Emperor Palpatine $99.95 x 1 = $99.95
                (Imperial Raider)

1              Royal Guard TIE $29.95 x 1 = $29.95
                (Imperial Aces)

1              Push the Limit $0.00
                (A-Wing or Imperial Aces)

1              Stealth Device $14.95 x 1 = $14.95
                (Slave I or M3-A Interceptor)

1              Autothrusters $19.95 x 1 = $19.95
                (StarViper)

1              Veteran Instincts $29.95 x 1 = $29.95
                (Slave I or Millennium Falcon)

1              Engine Upgrade $0.00

    (Millennium Falcon or
    Hound’s Tooth)

1              TIE/x1 $0.00
                (Imperial Raider)

1              Advanced Targeting Computer $0.00
                (Imperial Raider)

TOTAL        $294.55

Difference $314.40 - $294.55 = $19.85

 

U-Boats cost a whooping $19.95 more and that's what's called pay to win???

 

Was Palp Aces w/ Vader pay to win too when they started being used?

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You make a very good point. However, I'd wager that most of the X-wing players get along just fine with 1 of everything, and maybe multiples of ships they really like. If you really like the Jumpmaster, go ahead and buy three of them. But do you see how many duplicates you need in order to run the triple U-boats compared to Palp Aces? That's daunting for a lot of people. So let's take a look at how much it would cost to build each squad, assuming you started with one of everything.

 

Triple U-boats

2 more Punishing One, $29.95 x 2 = $59.90

1 more Deadeye, $14.95 x 1 = $14.95

1 more Extra Munitions, $19.95 x 1 = $19.95

TOTAL $94.80

 

Palp Aces

....yeah, there's nothing more that I need.

TOTAL $0.00

 

Now, does that make it pay to win? No, I don't think so. What's happening is that people tend to have negative feelings about lists that "spam" a certain ship or upgrade, and they feel hopeless that with their finances they could never build a squad like that, so they throw out comments like "pay to win." They'd rather spend $100 on something other than ships they already have. I mean, the cost of the Triple U-boats is enough to buy a Huge Epic ship - you know, the one they're probably going to announce at GenCon? :D

 

I am not disagreeing with you, just offering up another point of view. As for me, I don't even own IG-2000, M3-A Interceptor, or Khiraxz Fighter, so I'd sooner buy those ships than buy two more Punishing One expansion packs. It's all up to preference, and you can't let the whiners get to you.

 

EDT: I haven't heard "pay to win" much about the U-boats directly. I have heard at least a few of the locals complain about it without directly saying "pay to win". It may be a holdover from when C-3PO was dominating the meta game, and people complained about needing to buy Epic ships they'll never use. Which brings up a point: if you don't play epic, and you had one of every ship except Huge ships, then Palp Aces would be a few bucks more expensive than Triple U-boats.

 

I've heard the "it's lame spam" complaint a lot more. But the thing about spam, is that the whole squad shares a weakness. It's just tough to scope out the weakness of ships that hit so hard and have such a good dial. And a primary weapon turret thrown in there jjust for kicks. One way or another, this threat will disappear. We'll either figure out or get tired of playing it, instead leaping for the new hotness. That is the way of things.

Edited by Parakitor

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I don't think you can "pay to win" in this game. No matter how awesome the list you put together by buying whatever new meta-cracker ship that just came out is, this is still a game of knowledge first, strategy second, rng 3rd, and maybe you could argue a tiny amount is on resources (EG: can't build a list with two tie fighters if you only have one). You can surely pay to have more options in this game (as it should be), but just because someone across the table set up their triple scouts across from me, I'm not going to just roll over and die. I only play Empire by the way, but I'll advocate for the scouts because they add to the meta in what I believe is a good way. Variety is the spice of life after all.

Edit: spelling

Edited by BleakSquadron

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You are talking with a guy who owns 24 Tie Fighters, perhaps not best planning...but much cheaper and beautiful than a piece of "conceptual art".

 

I painted my ships into crazy things.  I have 3 assault frigates painted like koi.  Definitely conceptual art.  

 

One day, I really want to gold foil leaf my raiders' rims.  

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You are talking with a guy who owns 24 Tie Fighters, perhaps not best planning...but much cheaper and beautiful than a piece of "conceptual art".

 

I painted my ships into crazy things.  I have 3 assault frigates painted like koi.  Definitely conceptual art.  

 

One day, I really want to gold foil leaf my raiders' rims.

Are you talking about the Mark II frigates in armada?

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Life is pay to win.

 

You have to be prepared to invest cash into your hobby.

Someone who played golf, might quite happily spend thousands of dollars buying a really good set of clubs. Same deal goes for many many passtimes, especially the ones that are a competitive activity.

I've never once heard a golfer moan about the sport being "pay to win".

 

At least the x wing meta is open enough that no-one has to invest in triple u-boats unless they want to.

It's not like the existence of that squad obseletes everything else; you can beat them without joining them.

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Was Palp Aces w/ Vader pay to win too when they started being used?

 

Pretty much, yes.

 

FFG deliberately packages good upgrades in otherwise hard-to-sell or expensive kits, in order to boost the sales of those kits. This is a known sales strategy.

 

Be fair. They try in good faith to make every expansion viable.

 

In a game that's now make or break on individual points of cost... they just don't always succeed.

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Sounds like a whole bunch of ****hurt going on. People crying because triple toilet is new and weaknesses aren't that obvious to some.

 

As Wellington said after Waterloo, "They came on in the old way, and we beat them in the old way". If you don't get my drift, to make it simple: You need to change your tactics brah...

 

You try and joust Torpedo launchers, you're going to have a bad time...

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I keep hearing over and over again people saying that U-Boats are pay to win.  So, I decided to look up what it would cost if someone new to the game came in and just bought everything needed to buy the standard Trip U-Boats build.  Now this is costs from FFG and not other sites and it included the core set.  Then I compared it to what it would cost someone to build a typical Palp Aces build before wave 8 came out.  I even made sure to see that each build was made as cheaply as possible. 

 

Standard Trip U-Boats vs. Pre-Wave 8 Palp Aces w/ Vader

 

1              The Force Awakens Core Set $39.95 x 1 = $39.95

3              Punishing One $29.95 x 3 = $89.85

3              Dead Eye $14.95 x 3= $44.85

                (3 A-Wings or TAPs)

3              Plasma Torpedoes $0.00

                (Punishing One)

3              Extra Munitions $19.95 x 3 = $59.85

                (K-Wing or TIE Punisher)

3              Guidance Chips $0.00

                (Punishing One)

3              R4 Agromech $39.95 x 2 = $79.90

                (Most Wanted)

TOTAL        $314.40

 

1              The Force Awakens Core Set $39.95 x 1 = $39.95

1              Lambda-class Shuttle $29.95 x 1 = $29.95

1              TIE Interceptor $14.95 x 1 = $14.95

1              TIE Advanced $14.95 x 1 = $14.95

1              Emperor Palpatine $99.95 x 1 = $99.95

                (Imperial Raider)

1              Royal Guard TIE $29.95 x 1 = $29.95

                (Imperial Aces)

1              Push the Limit $0.00

                (A-Wing or Imperial Aces)

1              Stealth Device $14.95 x 1 = $14.95

                (Slave I or M3-A Interceptor)

1              Autothrusters $19.95 x 1 = $19.95

                (StarViper)

1              Veteran Instincts $29.95 x 1 = $29.95

                (Slave I or Millennium Falcon)

1              Engine Upgrade $0.00

    (Millennium Falcon or

    Hound’s Tooth)

1              TIE/x1 $0.00

                (Imperial Raider)

1              Advanced Targeting Computer $0.00

                (Imperial Raider)

TOTAL        $294.55

Difference $314.40 - $294.55 = $19.85

 

U-Boats cost a whooping $19.95 more and that's what's called pay to win???

 

Was Palp Aces w/ Vader pay to win too when they started being used?

I think people call it pay to win because all of a sudden on release day or soon after some of us (myself included) plopped down $90 for a new power list that we instantly had success with, whereas with Palp aces you had Soontir, a Lambda, and probably a TIE Advanced already so you already had the main components of it. Soontir was already being run so when Palp aces came along it wasn't seen as "Looks like /someone/ paid $100 to win" whereas buying 3 Jumpmasters required you to buy 3 new ships.

I don't think it's pay to win (well, this game does cost money and to a certain extent it is), or that U-Boats are more pay to win than many other lists. Don't quote me on this, but you could probably just buy 3 Jumpmasters and eBay the cards you need for cheap. R4 Agromechs and extra munitions and certainly the various torpedoes and Deadeye should be cheap cards. Like dual Aggressors you should just be able to buy 3 and have most of a list besides for a handful of cards.

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I keep hearing over and over again people saying that U-Boats are pay to win.  So, I decided to look up what it would cost if someone new to the game came in and just bought everything needed to buy the standard Trip U-Boats build.  Now this is costs from FFG and not other sites and it included the core set.  Then I compared it to what it would cost someone to build a typical Palp Aces build before wave 8 came out.  I even made sure to see that each build was made as cheaply as possible. 

 

Standard Trip U-Boats vs. Pre-Wave 8 Palp Aces w/ Vader

 

1              The Force Awakens Core Set $39.95 x 1 = $39.95

3              Punishing One $29.95 x 3 = $89.85

3              Dead Eye $14.95 x 3= $44.85

                (3 A-Wings or TAPs)

3              Plasma Torpedoes $0.00

                (Punishing One)

3              Extra Munitions $19.95 x 3 = $59.85

                (K-Wing or TIE Punisher)

3              Guidance Chips $0.00

                (Punishing One)

3              R4 Agromech $39.95 x 2 = $79.90

                (Most Wanted)

TOTAL        $314.40

 

1              The Force Awakens Core Set $39.95 x 1 = $39.95

1              Lambda-class Shuttle $29.95 x 1 = $29.95

1              TIE Interceptor $14.95 x 1 = $14.95

1              TIE Advanced $14.95 x 1 = $14.95

1              Emperor Palpatine $99.95 x 1 = $99.95

                (Imperial Raider)

1              Royal Guard TIE $29.95 x 1 = $29.95

                (Imperial Aces)

1              Push the Limit $0.00

                (A-Wing or Imperial Aces)

1              Stealth Device $14.95 x 1 = $14.95

                (Slave I or M3-A Interceptor)

1              Autothrusters $19.95 x 1 = $19.95

                (StarViper)

1              Veteran Instincts $29.95 x 1 = $29.95

                (Slave I or Millennium Falcon)

1              Engine Upgrade $0.00

    (Millennium Falcon or

    Hound’s Tooth)

1              TIE/x1 $0.00

                (Imperial Raider)

1              Advanced Targeting Computer $0.00

                (Imperial Raider)

TOTAL        $294.55

Difference $314.40 - $294.55 = $19.85

 

U-Boats cost a whooping $19.95 more and that's what's called pay to win???

 

Was Palp Aces w/ Vader pay to win too when they started being used?

I think people call it pay to win because all of a sudden on release day or soon after some of us (myself included) plopped down $90 for a new power list that we instantly had success with, whereas with Palp aces you had Soontir, a Lambda, and probably a TIE Advanced already so you already had the main components of it. Soontir was already being run so when Palp aces came along it wasn't seen as "Looks like /someone/ paid $100 to win" whereas buying 3 Jumpmasters required you to buy 3 new ships.

I don't think it's pay to win (well, this game does cost money and to a certain extent it is), or that U-Boats are more pay to win than many other lists. Don't quote me on this, but you could probably just buy 3 Jumpmasters and eBay the cards you need for cheap. R4 Agromechs and extra munitions and certainly the various torpedoes and Deadeye should be cheap cards. Like dual Aggressors you should just be able to buy 3 and have most of a list besides for a handful of cards.

 

I also don't think it's pay to win. S&V are a new faction, they will probably get the lions share of releases over the next few waves, so of course it means you will need to buy more of them as S&V are fairly limited in their options at the moment. I love S&V and would like to play them more, but as I have said elsewhere, they just don't have the options the Empire do, and who wants to play Rebels right?

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FFG deliberately packages good upgrades in otherwise hard-to-sell or expensive kits, in order to boost the sales of those kits. This is a known sales strategy.

 

 

"Known strategy"? Citation needed, methinks! While there are plenty of people who might feel like this, I doubt FFG designed the Starviper to be sub-par *just* to be a way of selling Autothrusters... If they had that much foresight, why didn't they just design a better ship?!

 

Now, Epic ships, I can sympathise, not everyone has the disposable income to pick up every huge ship. However, what would you rather they do? Only include "Huge Ship only" upgrades in them? I think it makes sense that really iconic characters, like Emperor P, deserve to be included in the biggest, fanciest expansion. Plus, with the inclusion of the Alt-Art C3-PO in the last SC tournament kit, they are taking steps to make the most sought after cards more easily available. By your logic that would suggest they have abandoned hope of ever selling a Tantive IV again...

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You are talking with a guy who owns 24 Tie Fighters, perhaps not best planning...but much cheaper and beautiful than a piece of "conceptual art".

 

I painted my ships into crazy things.  I have 3 assault frigates painted like koi.  Definitely conceptual art.  

 

One day, I really want to gold foil leaf my raiders' rims.  

 

 

I really, really would like to see that :D

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Who's saying this? I'm definitely in the crowd that refuses to buy ships *just* to field a spam list, but playing X-wing does require basically purchasing the cards that come with every ship in the game if you want to field a variety of competitive lists.

A man I look up to a great deal often says, "If your problems can be solved by money, then they're not real problems." It's quite profound. I know exceptions exist, but for affluent Americans, it sure puts things in perspective, you know?

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