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Fox

First review 3 out of 5

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Fox said:

From the review:

"character sheets have become double-sided character cards; ... and there’s a progress track with puzzle-cut pieces to help keep track of the ebb and flow of a character’s combat attitude."

I love the imperfect information. I give the review 3 of 5.

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That's because he didn't actually play the game.  At least, he doesn't mention playing the game, not even the intro adventure.  I don't see how that's a review.  Looks to me like just another close-minded curmudgeon that already has his mind made up before he got it.

Also, I think the writer is receiving funds from some kind of semi-colon lobby. gui%C3%B1o.gif

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Roleplaying games are becoming a harder to sell; with direct competition from online and console RPGs, not to mention the aging of the hobby, it can be tough to reach new markets. With the new edition of Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, Fantasy Flight Games attempts the previously unthinkable; making a tabletop RPG into a more visual experience to draw in a new audience. FFG also recently held a preview weekend, sending sneak peek materials out to stores to help introduce the game to its core audience.

 

When I first opened the review copy FFG sent, I thought they packed some components from Runebound or Descent into the massive box by mistake. In fact, it wasn’t a mistake; they meant to include all the various decks of cards, colorful specialty dice, and even the cardboard heroes with plastic stands. The changes don’t stop there; character sheets have become double-sided character cards; the dice have icons rather than numbers; and there’s a progress track with puzzle-cut pieces to help keep track of the ebb and flow of a character’s combat attitude. Much of the game’s core resembles the WFRP of old, but these changes make it more like one of FFG’s famously massive board games, but without the same high degree of accessibility. It’s also clear that little thought was given to the growing market segment online; chiefly because of the components, this strikes me as a game that wouldn’t lend itself well to direct downloadgood news for retailers but a potential limit to achieving greater market penetration.


I cannot fault FFG for trying something new; this is clearly an attempt to draw in a new audience for Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, perhaps even riding on the coattails of another famous and recently redesigned RPG. The problem is WFRP is neither a true tabletop RPG, nor is it a board game; it’s something halfway in-between. It isn’t enough like a boardgame to draw that crowd, and many of the components seem to be of limited utility such that I was confused by them initially. It felt as though new elements had been stapled on as an afterthought rather than truly integrated.

 

Handsomely presented though it is, at an approximate MSRP of $99.95, Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay will be a tough sell. There are definitely die-hard fans who will want this from day one, but taking pre-order down-payments from interested customers seems prudent.

 

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To be honest, it seems like he saw the dice and thought the game was just a Descent clone rather than looking at the deep underlying connections that people can make with their characters by interpreting symbols.

In classic RPG architecture, it is generally pass/fail for skill challenges, with the potential for degrees for success. It is still, however, relatively binary in nature.

In the symbol supported RPG architecture, the player starts experiencing semiosis while intetpreting symbols. More information is communicated than a pass/fail and players can end up becoming more involved (or conversely more disconnected) from their characters. Overall though, it enhances the immersion aspect of the game.

 

With the addition of the cards, counters and whatnot and the abstract distance system, it appears that one of the main goals for FFG was to keep immersion within the game rather than "breaking character" to more or less refer to something in a book elsewhere.

 

He might not have liked some of the components in the box, but I wouldn't dismiss this game as not a true roleplay system, given alot of the design choices are simply made to enhance the roleplaying aspect of games like these, rather than reduce it to a hunt through a book at critical stages of the game (and in the process, breaking character).

 

Whether these design choices were made knowingly or not of these various psychological principles, it is my belief that they were good choices nonetheless.

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What amazes me from the negative reviews from around the board is who it mirrors the negative reviews of 4E.  It's people who see it, and reject it out of hand, simply because it's not their old game.  Time and Time again we see this nerd rage.

A year or two after 3.5, there was just toooo much d20. It was the time of glut and declining sales. What could be done? Well two schools of thought.

Produce new verisons very close to previous content and hope people would re-purchase OR come up with new ideas.

The latter is what we are seeing with 4E, and Warhammer 3rd Edition. Some companies have decided to stick with game system updates (like L5R and indeed Pathfinder). We see alot a nerd rage against any company that does not keep their previous system.

Problem is updating old systems just isn't as profitable as developing something new. If Wotc had done a 3.75, nerd rage would abound against them, especially if they had published something like Pathfinder. People would be upset in investing in a third set of core rulebooks that got them 95% of the same information that was in the previous core rulebooks in the last 7 years. Paizo got away with it because of the public perception of "the savoirs of the system", I haven't noticed much in the way of accusing them of a "money grab" or "forcing us to buy" because the public perception on the matter doesn't make people inclined to attack them. Although in truth, there's an incedible amount of the same material in that book as 3.0 and 3.5

Pathfinder, while a fine project, is really just a monstrous reprint, changing a relatively few items. A nice book, wonderful art, but very few orginal or new ideas (although those ideas are nice). Paizo knows there auidence, and produces content on a small scale to make money for them. I'd be hard pressed for WotC to expect to sell just 4 books in 13 months of release, like Paizo plans. Hard pressed to see that for FFG too.

Regardless, it would be nice if gamers could recongnize this transition is GOOD for the industry, reprints is not. Reprints don't inspire creativity or ingenunity in current or future game designs. Reprints don't get people excited, and reprints will never lead to that next lighting in a bottle moment, like 3.0 had in 2000. It leads to small revenues, forcing professionals from the hobby, and closing companies, unless they accept a smaller buisness share. It leads to bored gamers (we all have very small attention spans) looking to spend their cash in other mediums like electronic and internet gaming.

It amazes me how many reject a game out of hand. Gamers calling new games dumbed down, despite knowing that Thaco was dropped to make the game accessible to more people in 3.0. Calling a game "WoW" in a degoratory way while spending money on "WoW" because you like it. Being mad at a game for having a boardgame interface for and RPG rather than pen and pencil. Dumbed Down? Well if that's your belief, maybe you weren't playing games in the 60s, 70s, and 80s. You know when rulebooks were 10 point font, 200 page manual and read with headings like "rule 98.2A". Ultimately money talks and B.S. Walks. And the sales of some of these new RPGs prove it.

To those that give it an honest try, thanks for trying it.  Sometimes  a new edtion is not someone's cup of tea.  That's fine. You have your untarnished old edition to play, and now you don't have to spend money.  It's not the end of the world.

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The part that gets me is when the out-of-hand dismissal comes from game store owners, distributors, and the hobby game channel.  The same folks that find an endless stream of excuses as their stores and sales shrink, blaming video games, kids, the economy, and everything except for their own shoddy attitude, lack of professionalism and poor sales orientation. 

The likes of FFG, GW, and WotC manage to stay in business by *not* treating their operations as clubhouses and platforms for their own personal, pet projects.

Not to say this reviewer is or isn't of that mindset, but the attitude is reminiscent, considering the lack of detail and vague, "overview" impressions that seem oriented toward a predisposed goal.  He misses most of the actual flaws, too, which you'd think a critical review would pick up on.

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morskittar said:

The part that gets me is when the out-of-hand dismissal comes from game store owners, distributors, and the hobby game channel.  The same folks that find an endless stream of excuses as their stores and sales shrink, blaming video games, kids, the economy, and everything except for their own shoddy attitude, lack of professionalism and poor sales orientation. 

The likes of FFG, GW, and WotC manage to stay in business by *not* treating their operations as clubhouses and platforms for their own personal, pet projects.

Not to say this reviewer is or isn't of that mindset, but the attitude is reminiscent, considering the lack of detail and vague, "overview" impressions that seem oriented toward a predisposed goal.  He misses most of the actual flaws, too, which you'd think a critical review would pick up on.

 

agreed.

 

 

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This is a joke.

I had a very strong, negative reaction to this game.  And I shared that - with friends.  It happens all to often in all manner of media that "professionals" have no compunction putting an ill-informed opinion out there for public consumption arrgh!

Breath deep, it's the holidays. . .

Ok, rant averted.

Anyway, I waited until I had played the game before putting forward an opinion for anyone to see.  Would have been pretty swell is this reviewer had bothered to have done the same.

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I read the review; if you want to call it that. It was more like a description of the box’s contents. I really don’t believe that it was negative. The tone read to me more like indifference. It was obvious that he wasn’t all that impressed, which might as well be a negative review if you’re trying to sell something. But why are you surprised? Are you shocked that he’s not a fanboi gushing all over it? He has nothing invested in FFG, WFRP, or your game. He probably didn’t play it, but so what? There are a lot of games out there that, good and bad, that I haven’t played just because they didn’t click with me. I also know that the difference between a good and bad game is the GM, but that’s a topic for another discussion. The point is it didn’t excite him, but that doesn’t make him a moron. The three gamestores in my area are not stocking it, because no one showed any interest, and it cost too much to keep on the shelves. They will take special orders. So there you have it from where I come from, which is New Jersey.

 

I put some thought into all these post, both for and against WFRP 3E. In the end my opinion doesn’t matter. Neither does yours. Neither does any of the other fanbois on here. Unless anyone else, beside the people on this forum, buys this game it won’t be around very long. So the only opinion that does matter is the bottom line.

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calibur1 said:

I read the review; if you want to call it that. It was more like a description of the box’s contents. I really don’t believe that it was negative. The tone read to me more like indifference. It was obvious that he wasn’t all that impressed, which might as well be a negative review if you’re trying to sell something. But why are you surprised? Are you shocked that he’s not a fanboi gushing all over it? He has nothing invested in FFG, WFRP, or your game. He probably didn’t play it, but so what? There are a lot of games out there that, good and bad, that I haven’t played just because they didn’t click with me. I also know that the difference between a good and bad game is the GM, but that’s a topic for another discussion. The point is it didn’t excite him, but that doesn’t make him a moron. The three gamestores in my area are not stocking it, because no one showed any interest, and it cost too much to keep on the shelves. They will take special orders. So there you have it from where I come from, which is New Jersey.

 

I put some thought into all these post, both for and against WFRP 3E. In the end my opinion doesn’t matter. Neither does yours. Neither does any of the other fanbois on here. Unless anyone else, beside the people on this forum, buys this game it won’t be around very long. So the only opinion that does matter is the bottom line.

 

I'm not expecting a fanboi.  We just want people to try it before dimissing it. I'm actually good friends with a store owner in New Jersey. They are carrying it, if you want to play it, PM me, I'll give the stores info.  You are totally correct the bottom line is what matters. But this whole thing is going down like 4E.  If you don't like it fine, but there's ALOT of nerd rage out there dimissing it out of hand. 

 

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Sinister said:

I'm not expecting a fanboi.  We just want people to try it before dimissing it. I'm actually good friends with a store owner in New Jersey. They are carrying it, if you want to play it, PM me, I'll give the stores info.  You are totally correct the bottom line is what matters. But this whole thing is going down like 4E.  If you don't like it fine, but there's ALOT of nerd rage out there dimissing it out of hand. 

 

But the tone of this guy's "review" doesn't read to me like nerd rage. He's just not enthusiastic about it. He probably should have read the rules first, but to be fair he didn't really say that the rules were good or bad. All he did was comment on his impression of the contents. And whether you like it or not, not everyone is going to buy into the bells and whistles. Their expectations are going to be different; **** everything else.

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calibur1 said:

Sinister said:

 

I'm not expecting a fanboi.  We just want people to try it before dimissing it. I'm actually good friends with a store owner in New Jersey. They are carrying it, if you want to play it, PM me, I'll give the stores info.  You are totally correct the bottom line is what matters. But this whole thing is going down like 4E.  If you don't like it fine, but there's ALOT of nerd rage out there dimissing it out of hand. 

 

 

 

But the tone of this guy's "review" doesn't read to me like nerd rage. He's just not enthusiastic about it. He probably should have read the rules first, but to be fair he didn't really say that the rules were good or bad. All he did was comment on his impression of the contents. And whether you like it or not, not everyone is going to buy into the bells and whistles. Their expectations are going to be different; **** everything else.

 

True. This review is not nearly as bad as the others I've seen.

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morskittar said:

The part that gets me is when the out-of-hand dismissal comes from game store owners, distributors, and the hobby game channel.  The same folks that find an endless stream of excuses as their stores and sales shrink, blaming video games, kids, the economy, and everything except for their own shoddy attitude, lack of professionalism and poor sales orientation. 

The likes of FFG, GW, and WotC manage to stay in business by *not* treating their operations as clubhouses and platforms for their own personal, pet projects.

 

My local shop has just celebrated its 30th anniversary. It's always stocked a wide range of RPGs, miniatures, and serious boardgames (FFG features pretty heavily). It's survived the aggressive attentions of GW (don't get the owner started on that subject), and a variety of other games outlets in the city and bookshops that started to stock RPGs. The mere fact that it's survived three decades and is still doing fine suggests that the owner's attitude, professionalism and sales orientation are better than most.

When I last spoke to him, a few weeks ago, he said he'd be ordering two copies for the people who'd specifically asked him to get the game for them, but it was too expensive to take a chance on getting unordered copies at this stage. I'll let you know if the situation changes.

Cheers

Sparrow

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Don't like the game? You're a Stubborn Grognard.

You LIKE the game? You're an Immature Fanboi.

Either way, we're all nerds and geeks. We're technically all on the same side!

Let us unite in our hatred for a common foe: the Magic the Gathering Goons. They sure suck, don't they? HA HA HA

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Necrozius said:

Let us unite in our hatred for a common foe: the Magic the Gathering Goons. They sure suck, don't they? HA HA HA

 

In Magic's defense, it was MTG that got me into roleplaying... after I saw some guys doing it years ago at a gamestore I played Magic at.

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froo said:

Necrozius said:

 

Let us unite in our hatred for a common foe: the Magic the Gathering Goons. They sure suck, don't they? HA HA HA

 

 

 

In Magic's defense, it was MTG that got me into roleplaying... after I saw some guys doing it years ago at a gamestore I played Magic at.

 

Yours is the story of hundreds, if not thousands.

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James Sparrow said:

My local shop has just celebrated its 30th anniversary. It's always stocked a wide range of RPGs, miniatures, and serious boardgames (FFG features pretty heavily). It's survived the aggressive attentions of GW (don't get the owner started on that subject), and a variety of other games outlets in the city and bookshops that started to stock RPGs. The mere fact that it's survived three decades and is still doing fine suggests that the owner's attitude, professionalism and sales orientation are better than most.

When I last spoke to him, a few weeks ago, he said he'd be ordering two copies for the people who'd specifically asked him to get the game for them, but it was too expensive to take a chance on getting unordered copies at this stage. I'll let you know if the situation changes.

Cheers

Sparrow

Sounds like a gem of a store!  Quite the reasonable way of handling it too; unless he has a community member to leverage to evangalize the game for him, preorder-only status seems like a smart move.  Little surprise he's made it 30 years.

Conversely, the owner's probably not the guy writing 'reviews' of little content that give middling scores to games he likely hasn't played. 

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Necrozius said:

Don't like the game? You're a Stubborn Grognard.

You LIKE the game? You're an Immature Fanboi.

Either way, we're all nerds and geeks. We're technically all on the same side!

Let us unite in our hatred for a common foe: the Magic the Gathering Goons. They sure suck, don't they? HA HA HA

I don't think it's quite like that.  I've kept an open mind, and the new WFRP looks very interesting to me.  If, after my group plays it, it turns out that none of us like it, I will say so.

There are people that seem to have made up their minds before hand, however, and some of the comments in the review led me to believe that the writer was one of them.  Specifically, the "I thought it was Descent", and "not an RPG" comments seemed rather negative to me, and without basis.  If he had provided any kind of factual support for these statements, I might think otherwise.

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