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Rager45

The Price Issue

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The issue of WFRP's price is interesting to me. I guess the $100 price tag is shocking. However, It's fascinating that I have never heard that complaint from players and dm's of the most well known RPG of all time D&D. Everyone knows that the minimum entry cost for dm's to run D&D is $100 ($30 to $35 per rulebook: dmg,phb,and monster manual ). Since 3rd edition D&D  the heavy tactical mechanics makes playing without miniatures and a battle map impossible. So, $100 doesn't get the dm there. WFRP on the other hand provides everything u need for $100 miniatures, dice, rulebooks, and action cards (no photo coying or printing required that goes for character sheets as well.) Now don't get me wrong there are plenty of rpg's which don't require 3 rulebook's and or battle maps, but that means the conversation should be about rpgs which require multiple core rulebooks and maps and those which don't. WFRP compares very favorably to 4th edition price wise and unarguably beats it. Now that I have played WFRP I also realize the core set can easily support a 5 to 6 player game with a little bit of sharing of basic components so that argument is invalid also. The bottom line is WFRP pricing is not something new and is in line with other rpg's of it's type. If you don't want to get it because of price I guess you won't be running Earthdawn 3rd edition or D&D 4th edition either. 

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Rager45 said:

The issue of WFRP's price is interesting to me. I guess the $100 price tag is shocking. However, It's fascinating that I have never heard that complaint from players and dm's of the most well known RPG of all time D&D. Everyone knows that the minimum entry cost for dm's to run D&D is $100 ($30 to $35 per rulebook: dmg,phb,and monster manual ). Since 3rd edition D&D  the heavy tactical mechanics makes playing without miniatures and a battle map impossible. So, $100 doesn't get the dm there. WFRP on the other hand provides everything u need for $100 miniatures, dice, rulebooks, and action cards (no photo coying or printing required that goes for character sheets as well.) Now don't get me wrong there are plenty of rpg's which don't require 3 rulebook's and or battle maps, but that means the conversation should be about rpgs which require multiple core rulebooks and maps and those which don't. WFRP compares very favorably to 4th edition price wise and unarguably beats it. Now that I have played WFRP I also realize the core set can easily support a 5 to 6 player game with a little bit of sharing of basic components so that argument is invalid also. The bottom line is WFRP pricing is not something new and is in line with other rpg's of it's type. If you don't want to get it because of price I guess you won't be running Earthdawn 3rd edition or D&D 4th edition either. 

I've never used miniatures for D&D, and I played and dm'ed for about 7 years. There's your impossible gui%C3%B1o.gif

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Bludgeon said:

Rager45 said:

 

The issue of WFRP's price is interesting to me. I guess the $100 price tag is shocking. However, It's fascinating that I have never heard that complaint from players and dm's of the most well known RPG of all time D&D. Everyone knows that the minimum entry cost for dm's to run D&D is $100 ($30 to $35 per rulebook: dmg,phb,and monster manual ). Since 3rd edition D&D  the heavy tactical mechanics makes playing without miniatures and a battle map impossible. So, $100 doesn't get the dm there. WFRP on the other hand provides everything u need for $100 miniatures, dice, rulebooks, and action cards (no photo coying or printing required that goes for character sheets as well.) Now don't get me wrong there are plenty of rpg's which don't require 3 rulebook's and or battle maps, but that means the conversation should be about rpgs which require multiple core rulebooks and maps and those which don't. WFRP compares very favorably to 4th edition price wise and unarguably beats it. Now that I have played WFRP I also realize the core set can easily support a 5 to 6 player game with a little bit of sharing of basic components so that argument is invalid also. The bottom line is WFRP pricing is not something new and is in line with other rpg's of it's type. If you don't want to get it because of price I guess you won't be running Earthdawn 3rd edition or D&D 4th edition either. 

 

I've never used miniatures for D&D, and I played and dm'ed for about 7 years. There's your impossible gui%C3%B1o.gif

 

Agreed, Ive been playig RPGs since 1986 and I can count the number of times we actually used miniatures in any RPG on one hand.

Rager you seem to be quite self assured in your argument, deciding what is or is not valid. I wont be running D&D 4E for reasons other then price and the same as for Earhdawn 3E.

MOST rpgs come these days in a self contained volume, one book to play the game overall. Mutants and Masterminds, D20 Modern, BRP, Call of Cthulhu. Hollow Earth Expedition, Savage World of Solomon Kane, D6 Space, even Rifts and Star Wars.

So what you said was invalid is actually quite valid.

 

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Figured I'd chime in on this (seen enough of these floating around) with my $0.02...

I think that the question of price, regardless of the item, generally comes down to the individual: do they see the value in spending the money on the product they're getting.  How a product is marketed tends to have a pretty bid impact as to whether someone "sees the value".  For me, in the case of WFRP 3e, I see the $85 (base + kit at Amazon) as a worthwhile investment/experiment to the get into and try the system.  I'm getting the better part of 350+ pages of printed material (full color), plus a boatload of cards/bits/accessories/pieces that support the game.  For those who aren't interested in the mechanical components, I can definitely understand/appreciate the concerns regarding price and what one gets for their money.

One thing that I think FFG could have done differently would have been to offer the rules separately - either as a complete hard-cover book "complete" or a soft-cover "rules only" edition.  Who knows, once the game has been "out" for a while, this might very well be their intention (hope so).  I can understand how releasing both the "book-only" at the same time could have a negative impact on the success of the box.

To me, one of the most interesting aspects would be to see how many people are purchasing this through locally (FLGS) or online (discounted).  I suspect the higher price tag will promote the online route far more than going through the FLGS.

Regards,

AJC

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According to the latest Amazon sales ranking for RPGs, the price isn't a big concern for quite a lot of people.

I find it curious that the same people that are complaining that nWFRP is not a complete game and you will be forced to buy supplements while crowing about 2e being a complete game in one book, are the same ones that are upset that 2e is not getting further support. Did you ever stop to think that one of the reasons why 2e died is because not enough people were buying the supplements and that each new book sold worse? That every time someone started a thread to ask about the game and wanted to know what books were really needed, you all chimed in with "just the core?" I'll excuse FFG for not adopting a model that clearly wasn't working.

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It's true, though, that 3rd edition, right off the bat, doesn't have as many choices for careers as 2nd, based on the core rulebooks. Those missing things will be featured in later expansions, of course, but it implies that if you want the "complete" experience, you need to devote cash to this particular hobby.

I personally don't mind buying all the expansions (I don't really collect anything else right now in my life). But I can understand the reluctance some people have for getting into a whole brand new investment, especially if they already have dozens of published material for 2nd.

If I was less financially stable or simply uninterested in all the moving parts, I too would stick with 2nd, for that matter.

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 Why compare it to DnD 4th edition? Why not compare it to WFRP 2? That seems like a more honest comparison. Not all RPGs are as expensive as DnD 4th edition. For example Trail of Cthulhu, Savage Worlds & Esoterrorists are much cheaper.

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Two video games will cost you 120 bucks, and grant maybe 20 hours of solo entertainment.  $100 bucks worth of movies translates into about 10 hours' worth of entertainment, for two (double that if you want a snack or two).

As far as I'm concerned, 100 bucks is a deal for 4 people worth of entertainment if manage at least three or four sessions over the *lifetime* of the product.  The price "concerns" are very alien to my mind.

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The reason I compared it to D&D is because D&D is the grand daddy of all RPG's and the most successful despite it's intial start up cost. I was just making the point that WFRP model is not unusual. Maybe the cost is deceiving because people are looking at WFRP as $100 for 1 item and D&D as $100 for three items.

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Bludgeon said:

Rager45 said:

 

The issue of WFRP's price is interesting to me. I guess the $100 price tag is shocking. However, It's fascinating that I have never heard that complaint from players and dm's of the most well known RPG of all time D&D. Everyone knows that the minimum entry cost for dm's to run D&D is $100 ($30 to $35 per rulebook: dmg,phb,and monster manual ). Since 3rd edition D&D  the heavy tactical mechanics makes playing without miniatures and a battle map impossible. So, $100 doesn't get the dm there. WFRP on the other hand provides everything u need for $100 miniatures, dice, rulebooks, and action cards (no photo coying or printing required that goes for character sheets as well.) Now don't get me wrong there are plenty of rpg's which don't require 3 rulebook's and or battle maps, but that means the conversation should be about rpgs which require multiple core rulebooks and maps and those which don't. WFRP compares very favorably to 4th edition price wise and unarguably beats it. Now that I have played WFRP I also realize the core set can easily support a 5 to 6 player game with a little bit of sharing of basic components so that argument is invalid also. The bottom line is WFRP pricing is not something new and is in line with other rpg's of it's type. If you don't want to get it because of price I guess you won't be running Earthdawn 3rd edition or D&D 4th edition either. 

 

I've never used miniatures for D&D, and I played and dm'ed for about 7 years. There's your impossible gui%C3%B1o.gif

 

OMG! How do you run D&D w/o miniatures. How does your group handle AoO's and 5 foot steps. You can't be playing 4th ed right?

 

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Rager45 said:

Bludgeon said:

 

I've never used miniatures for D&D, and I played and dm'ed for about 7 years. There's your impossible gui%C3%B1o.gif

 

 

OMG! How do you run D&D w/o miniatures. How does your group handle AoO's and 5 foot steps. You can't be playing 4th ed right?

 

 

It is not actually difficult.

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Estimates usually works in those situation. I am fortunate that I don't play with rule-nazis. My players think that rules are to be used as little as possible, and do not worry about 5 foot steps or what ever, and neither do I.

I simply can't afford to shell out 100$ on a game that I am not sure about. With DnD you could buy the Players Manual and check it out and see if it was the game for you without feeling too bad about the cost. Savage Worlds is 10$, so again you can afford to purchase it and realize it wasn't the game for you without it sucked too much. But with a price tag of a 100 bucks, it will be bitter expericence to shell out all those cash and regret it afterwards, you just can't afford to make the wrong purchase.

That's the problem with the pricetag. If you are unsure if you want to play the game, a 100$ will discourage many potential buyers, including me...

Unfortunately, I need to see some breathtaking reviews before I will pay up the price for this edition, which annoys me tremendously, because WFRP is my absolute favourite setting.

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Peacekeeper_b said:

Bludgeon said:

 

Rager45 said:

 

The issue of WFRP's price is interesting to me. I guess the $100 price tag is shocking. However, It's fascinating that I have never heard that complaint from players and dm's of the most well known RPG of all time D&D. Everyone knows that the minimum entry cost for dm's to run D&D is $100 ($30 to $35 per rulebook: dmg,phb,and monster manual ). Since 3rd edition D&D  the heavy tactical mechanics makes playing without miniatures and a battle map impossible. So, $100 doesn't get the dm there. WFRP on the other hand provides everything u need for $100 miniatures, dice, rulebooks, and action cards (no photo coying or printing required that goes for character sheets as well.) Now don't get me wrong there are plenty of rpg's which don't require 3 rulebook's and or battle maps, but that means the conversation should be about rpgs which require multiple core rulebooks and maps and those which don't. WFRP compares very favorably to 4th edition price wise and unarguably beats it. Now that I have played WFRP I also realize the core set can easily support a 5 to 6 player game with a little bit of sharing of basic components so that argument is invalid also. The bottom line is WFRP pricing is not something new and is in line with other rpg's of it's type. If you don't want to get it because of price I guess you won't be running Earthdawn 3rd edition or D&D 4th edition either. 

 

I've never used miniatures for D&D, and I played and dm'ed for about 7 years. There's your impossible gui%C3%B1o.gif

 

 

 

Agreed, Ive been playig RPGs since 1986 and I can count the number of times we actually used miniatures in any RPG on one hand.

Rager you seem to be quite self assured in your argument, deciding what is or is not valid. I wont be running D&D 4E for reasons other then price and the same as for Earhdawn 3E.

MOST rpgs come these days in a self contained volume, one book to play the game overall. Mutants and Masterminds, D20 Modern, BRP, Call of Cthulhu. Hollow Earth Expedition, Savage World of Solomon Kane, D6 Space, even Rifts and Star Wars.

So what you said was invalid is actually quite valid.

 

Peacekeeper_b said:

Bludgeon said:

 

Rager45 said:

 

The issue of WFRP's price is interesting to me. I guess the $100 price tag is shocking. However, It's fascinating that I have never heard that complaint from players and dm's of the most well known RPG of all time D&D. Everyone knows that the minimum entry cost for dm's to run D&D is $100 ($30 to $35 per rulebook: dmg,phb,and monster manual ). Since 3rd edition D&D  the heavy tactical mechanics makes playing without miniatures and a battle map impossible. So, $100 doesn't get the dm there. WFRP on the other hand provides everything u need for $100 miniatures, dice, rulebooks, and action cards (no photo coying or printing required that goes for character sheets as well.) Now don't get me wrong there are plenty of rpg's which don't require 3 rulebook's and or battle maps, but that means the conversation should be about rpgs which require multiple core rulebooks and maps and those which don't. WFRP compares very favorably to 4th edition price wise and unarguably beats it. Now that I have played WFRP I also realize the core set can easily support a 5 to 6 player game with a little bit of sharing of basic components so that argument is invalid also. The bottom line is WFRP pricing is not something new and is in line with other rpg's of it's type. If you don't want to get it because of price I guess you won't be running Earthdawn 3rd edition or D&D 4th edition either. 

 

I've never used miniatures for D&D, and I played and dm'ed for about 7 years. There's your impossible gui%C3%B1o.gif

 

 

 

Agreed, Ive been playig RPGs since 1986 and I can count the number of times we actually used miniatures in any RPG on one hand.

Rager you seem to be quite self assured in your argument, deciding what is or is not valid. I wont be running D&D 4E for reasons other then price and the same as for Earhdawn 3E.

MOST rpgs come these days in a self contained volume, one book to play the game overall. Mutants and Masterminds, D20 Modern, BRP, Call of Cthulhu. Hollow Earth Expedition, Savage World of Solomon Kane, D6 Space, even Rifts and Star Wars.

So what you said was invalid is actually quite valid.

 

That's a good point peacekeeper, I did mention the fact that there are loads of games which require only one rulebook. I'm a big Savage Worlds fan. $10 for the whole game "lovin it", but is it fair to compare WFRP to those games? I can see dm's who never use mini's thinking hey I don't need the mini's could you guys knock off a few bucks and I'll mail them back to you :-). I as a nostalgia guy have always loved rpg's in boxed sets. I love the D&D 4e adventures in the folder with the maps. great idea. Fantasy games need maps.

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The bottom line is that WFRP 3e comes with hundreds of cards, a lot of dice, dozens of carboard counters and tokens, and a pad of character sheets in addition to the rulebooks.  Other RPGs only come with rulebooks.  If you add up the value of all the components, the Core Set is well worth the money for what you get.  However, it is enough to run at least GM+3 players, thus it is not "player-friendly".  It's not meant as something each individual player needs to purchase to play the game.  I think this is where people are getting caught up.  With a single rulebook, it is easy for players to purchase the game.  WFRP 3e is more difficult, because it is pricier.  It is pricier because the Core Set is really a "4-person" purchase.  Something like the Adventurer's Toolkit is more along the lines of a "player-purchase", although that doesn't include a rulebook for the player.  I really think FFG is trying something along the lines of how they designed WFRP 3e.  The game is more group-oriented than v2, including things like the Party Sheet for example.  It seems like the Core Set is similar... the Core Set is designed for a group, not an individual.

Anyway. It's pricey for a single person to buy at once. Yes.  It contains materials worth over $100, so in that sense it is a good buy.  For gaming value, well, that is subjective, of course.  If you plan on trying ot use everything the game comes with, then it's a great value.  If you don't plan on using most/any of the components, then the gaming value of the set diminishes for that person. 

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It would be nice to see either an entry-level single-player deal, or maybe the rulebook sold solo.  A "GM's resource" book would be cool too, that gives print versions of the cards and all the books in a compilation.  I'd still be inclined to pick up the cards for ease of use, but I gather a single book would work for many.

 

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Honestly. Amazon has it for 38% off, that makes it only 62 bucks.  This has been the case for all rpgs in the last few years.  I mean you SHOULD support your local game store but honestly if you pay retail for the game, you're either a saint for supporting your brick and motar or you are a idiot for throwing money down a hole.

So when you consider how cheap that is, no one can really gripe about the price.  Who is REALLY going to pay retail?

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I am sure some psychologist somewhere has an answer for this.  It seems to me that one item that costs $100 is perceived as more expensive that three items that cost $40 but when combined do the same thing as the $100 item.

If playing World of Warcraft cost you a one time fee of $1000 people would say that it was way too expensive but I know folks who have spent far more than that on WoW and if the game shut down tomorrow they would have nothing to show for it. 

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 Hi! My first post here. In short about me. I'm from Poland and I have been playing RPG for 6 years. As GM I have been running WFRP 2. By the way, sorry for my English level :)

I have bought all WFRP 3 products online in Polish Internet shop for about $125 and I can't wait to grab it in my hands. I'm writing becouse Polish people are complaining about some things (especially about the price) and I want to hear your opinions:

  1. Low number of advanced careers compared with second edition amount.  WFRP 3 core set have got only 5 advanced careers instead of 47.
  2. New game needs too much space to use all these components during the play.
  3. Components have pushed aside imagination to visualisation aspect. 
  4. Price of the game is too high.
  5. New edition of WFRP is more demo version than second edition was. You're forced to buy expensive expansions to derive pleasure from the game play.
  6. You can't buy extra dices separately. You can only buy dice sets made by FFG, becouse they are custom dices. 

It's all for now, I hope you can read what I have written, see you soon :)

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Armoks said:

 Hi! My first post here. In short about me. I'm from Poland and I have been playing RPG for 6 years. As GM I have been running WFRP 2. By the way, sorry for my English level :)

I have bought all WFRP 3 products online in Polish Internet shop for about $125 and I can't wait to grab it in my hands. I'm writing becouse Polish people are complaining about some things (especially about the price) and I want to hear your opinions:

  1. Low number of advanced careers compared with second edition amount.  WFRP 3 core set have got only 5 advanced careers instead of 47.
  2. New game needs too much space to use all these components during the play.
  3. Components have pushed aside imagination to visualisation aspect. 
  4. Price of the game is too high.
  5. New edition of WFRP is more demo version than second edition was. You're forced to buy expensive expansions to derive pleasure from the game play.
  6. You can't buy extra dices separately. You can only buy dice sets made by FFG, becouse they are custom dices. 

It's all for now, I hope you can read what I have written, see you soon :)

Welcome to the forum mate happy.gif.

Try The Emperor's Decree section, that's a good start, and lots of info from people that already played it.

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crosswiredmind said:

I am sure some psychologist somewhere has an answer for this.  It seems to me that one item that costs $100 is perceived as more expensive that three items that cost $40 but when combined do the same thing as the $100 item.

If playing World of Warcraft cost you a one time fee of $1000 people would say that it was way too expensive but I know folks who have spent far more than that on WoW and if the game shut down tomorrow they would have nothing to show for it. 

 

I think that one thing people aren't really discussing with the 3 books vs. 1 box is the fact that you can buy 3 books in stages, 1 a month or every other month until you have them all. The price point aside, people can buy them in stages. You can't with an all or nothing boxed set release. 

That said, every time the issue of price comes up (with more than 'it's too pricy for me, not interested' as the argument) when did people forget that they can SAVE MONEY UP to buy this? Just like the guy who buys his 3 core books over a couple months, a player could actually sock money away each month until they have enough to buy WHFRP. I just don't get the whole 'it must be cheap enough for me to buy it Right Now'. If you want it, you'll find a way to save the money for it, if you don't want it at the price offered...let it go...

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I've been a longtime lurker here and over at the BI boards, but I felt I needed to chime in here.

For me, the price issue doesn't have anything to do with the $100 price tag. I just don't feel that the changes in the game are spectacular enough to warrant the cash.

Before bringing the fire :), I like it. I was very negative about 3rd when I first heard about it, but the demo completely changed my mind in that regard. I just feel that the limited scope of the box set (classes, etc.), doesn't justify me dropping the money on it right now. It's seemes to be very much a work in progress. I see alot of potential there that hasn't been explored enough for my taste. A year or two down the line and a few supplements may change my mind. But, as is, its not complete enough to switch from 1st/2nd.

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Sinister said:

Honestly. Amazon has it for 38% off, that makes it only 62 bucks.  This has been the case for all rpgs in the last few years.  I mean you SHOULD support your local game store but honestly if you pay retail for the game, you're either a saint for supporting your brick and motar or you are a idiot for throwing money down a hole.

So when you consider how cheap that is, no one can really gripe about the price.  Who is REALLY going to pay retail?

Ah man not cool. gui%C3%B1o.gif I purchased my copy from my flgs's website www.legendscomics.com for 25% off when it was a preorder. Oh well a don't feel bad Amazon ain't giving me a place to play and meet local gamers so I don't feel bad. Heres hoping theres no tention in your party. I'll be up all night reading.

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Rager45 said:

Ah man not cool. gui%C3%B1o.gif I purchased my copy from my flgs's website www.legendscomics.com for 25% off when it was a preorder. Oh well a don't feel bad Amazon ain't giving me a place to play and meet local gamers so I don't feel bad. Heres hoping theres no tention in your party. I'll be up all night reading.

 

Now that's a pro-active store.  I'd gladly pay that extra 10-15% if I could have pre-ordered from my FLGS.  As it was, my store signed up for the preview and then promptly failed to organize and advertise for the event.  Best part of this is that I'm only 40 minutes from Towson...might have a target for Friday... gui%C3%B1o.gif

AJC

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