The Titan's Bastard (T120) and Valar Morghulis (S201) at the same time.

[agent8480 0]

 Question on how this would play out.  It is the end of the plot phase and Valar Morghulis is played down.  The effect of the card is to kill all chracters in play. The stark Player has 2 chracters out and the Targaryen player has 6.  At this time, the Tragaryen player use the response of the Titan's Bastard card to bring it into play.  The 2nd response on the card is for it go back into the hard when a card is put into your opponent's dead pile.  In this situation, cards are being put in both death piles at the same time.  How would this play out?

[ktom 598]

Couple of things:

- The Titan's Bastard's two abilities are both Responses. That means his controller chooses whether to activate them or not. There is nothing automatic or obligatory about it. It doesn't matter how many characters are being placed in an opponent's dead pile; if the Bastard's controller wants him to stay in play, he does simply by deciding not to activate the Response.

- Because both Responses are valid, the controller can essentially put him into play, then pick him up, then put him into play (once into play for each of his own characters that were killed, once back to hand for each of his opponents' characters that were killed). Pointless, but legal.

- The proper place to trigger the Response to return him to hand is in Step 5 of the action window in which the kill effect is resolved - not at the end of the action window when cards are physically removed from the table, nor at the end of the phase. Check out the section in the FAQ about "moribund" for a full explanation of the timing of Responses and why "after a card is placed in the dead pile" Responses are actually triggered before the card physically leaves the table.

[bloodycelt 31]

It's not completely pointless... if there is something that triggers off triggered effects, characters coming into play from hand...

I don't think anything in LCG world can... but "Standard" and Classic there's a few.

 

1. Reveal Valar in challenges phase with 5ke viserion.

COMBO: Viserion responds to characters coming into play in the challenges phase so cycling titan's bastard in and out of hand generates these responses (Only in challenges phase). Essentially if the opponent can save a character you can use this to burn that character to death. Never seen this happen but hey... it could work.

 

2. Raising claim on another players "The Things I Do For Love"... the reason might be "why". Well proper usage of titles in multiplayer can allow one to aim a high claim cannon at an opponent.

 

 

[Comm 0]

bloodycelt said:

It's not completely pointless... if there is something that triggers off triggered effects, characters coming into play from hand...

I don't think anything in LCG world can... but "Standard" and Classic there's a few.

 

1. Reveal Valar in challenges phase with 5ke viserion.

COMBO: Viserion responds to characters coming into play in the challenges phase so cycling titan's bastard in and out of hand generates these responses (Only in challenges phase). Essentially if the opponent can save a character you can use this to burn that character to death. Never seen this happen but hey... it could work.

 

2. Raising claim on another players "The Things I Do For Love"... the reason might be "why". Well proper usage of titles in multiplayer can allow one to aim a high claim cannon at an opponent.

 

There is also a combo with Valar and Viserys (WE): each time the Titan comes into play, Viserys will claim a power (although he is moribund).

Pity that Viserys has been errated to only 4 times per phase, because, as he has became moribund because of Valar, he could not become moribund again and then could not be discarded even if he has 4 or more power. He could then claim more than 4 power and win you the game. At least I think this is what would happen, but I may be wrong.

[ktom 598]

I was going to get into this, but...

To get really technical, I was a bit misleading in the earlier answer. It is true that after Valar, with the TB in your hand, you could put him into play (in Response to a character of yours being killed/going to the dead pile), then pick him right back up again (in Response to a character of your opponent's being killed/going to the dead pile). In theory, the process could indeed keep on going.

Unfortunately, when you use the Response to put him back into your hand the first time, he becomes moribund. He starts in play and is removed to an out-of-play are, so that means he becomes moribund first and physically stays on the table. So he is not actually in your hand and triggering the "put into play from your hand" Response a second time doesn't actually have any practical result, ie - it is unsuccessful. Hence, the repeated "pick him up, put him down" after Valar doesn't actually work in practical terms and is, ultimately, pointless.

 

PS - The best combo with WED-Viserys was with Plea to R'hllor. Play him OOH, kill him and a whole bunch of Bara weenies, play the event, put upwards of 10 characters into play all at once and win with Viserys in moribund. That's one of the combos that actually led to the errata.... 

[Guest Not In Sample]

ktom said:

Unfortunately, when you use the Response to put him back into your hand the first time, he becomes moribund. He starts in play and is removed to an out-of-play are, so that means he becomes moribund first and physically stays on the table. 

I don't get this point, sorry...Can you explain me with a bit of "timing" reference? Thanks and sorry in advance, Ktom. 

[ktom 598]

DB_Cooper said:

ktom said:

 Unfortunately, when you use the Response to put him back into your hand the first time, he becomes moribund. He starts in play and is removed to an out-of-play are, so that means he becomes moribund first and physically stays on the table. 

 I don't get this point, sorry...Can you explain me with a bit of "timing" reference? Thanks and sorry in advance, Ktom. 

First thing to remember: WHENEVER a card leaves play for ANY reason, it becomes moribund first and is not actually physically removed from the table until Step 6 of the action window. So you're looking at the following (a little abbreviated from the Framework Action Window - only looking at the one plot):

Step 1: Initiate - Reveal Valar

Step 2: Save/Cancel - to revealing Valar

Step 3: Resolve - Valar becomes the player's revealed plot.

Step 4: Passives - Valar's "when revealed" text technically activates here.

Step 4I: Initiate Passive - Valar effect to kill all characters initiates

Step 4II: Save/Cancel - to anything being killed by Valar (assume none)

Step 4III: Resolve Passive - All characters in play are killed (and become "moribund:dead pile" while physically staying on the table). Assume 4 Targ characters and 3 Stark characters died.

Step 5: Responses - Use Response effects to anything that happened in Steps 1-4 Targ player has TB in hand, so...

Step 5.1I: Initiate Response - Trigger TB to put it into play from hand; Responding to dead Targ character #1

Step 5.1II: Save/Cancer - to attempting to put TB into play

Step 5.1III: Resolve Response - TB enters play

Step 5.1IV: Passives to Response 5.1 - anything activated passively by TB entering play

Step 5.2I: Initiate Response - Trigger TB to return him to hand; Responding to dead Stark character #1

Step 5.2II: Save/Cancel - to attempting to return TB to hand

Step 5.2III: Resolve Response - TB is returned to hand (and becomes "moribund:hand" while physically staying on the table)

Step 5.2IV: Passive to Response 5.2 - anything activated passively by TB returning to hand

Step 5.3I: Initiate Response - Trigger TB to put it into play from hand; Responding to dead Targ character #2

(FAILS: You cannot initiate this Response - which can only be triggered from your hand - because the TB is not physically in your hand. He became moribund in Step 5.2III and is on the table. So despite there being a legal Response opportunity from dead Targ character #2, triggering the actual Response is illegal.)

Step 6: End - all "moribund:dead pile" cards go to their owner's dead piles, all "moribund:hand" cards go to their owner's hand

 

So, TB entered play in Step 5.1III and became moribund in Step 5.2III. That means you cannot try to put him into play a second time in a Step 5.3I-III because is has not technically left play from Steps 5.2I-III yet.

Hope that helps.

[Guest Not In Sample]

Nothing to say. You're THE man.

P.S. Think about the fact that when we are in trouble, here, we say "Hey, Ktom says that..:" Believe me. 

[ktom 598]

DB_Cooper said:

P.S. Think about the fact that when we are in trouble, here, we say "Hey, Ktom says that..:" Believe me. 

~ How do you know they're quoting me accurately?

But thanks for the kind words.

[Guest Not In Sample]

ktom said:

 

~ How do you know they're quoting me accurately?

But thanks for the kind words.

Ehehe...Wanna laugh? Some weeks ago I printed some of your posts and used them as a proof.

BTW, believe me, that's not only my opinion, around here.

 

 

[Mig el Pig 176]

How come 'The titan's Bastard becomes mortibound? He came into play(step 5) after valar effects kills all personalities(step4I)

[ktom 598]

Mig el Pig said:

How come 'The titan's Bastard becomes mortibound? He came into play(step 5) after valar effects kills all personalities(step4I)

He is not moribund from Valar. He is moribund from his own second ability returning him to your hand. He comes into play when you use his first ability, then becomes moribund (returning to hand) when you use the second. Cards become moribund whenever they leave play, not just when they are killed.

You can avoid him becoming moribund by not triggering the second ability.

I'm really not sure how much clearer I can be on this one than the step-by-step above....

[Mig el Pig 176]

Ow sorry, thought you meant he would also be killed (together with the targ en stark characters as in your example)

I do undersand that the second time you would try to play him (in the same action window) that he's still considerd to be on the board so you can't play him from your hand.

[ktom 598]

Sorry if the reply seemed harsh. In my own head, I had said he was moribund from his own ability, not from Valar, in that mess....

[Mig el Pig 176]

ktom said:

Sorry if the reply seemed harsh.

Don't worry, it's the nature of the written medium that most things can be read 'harsher' then the writer himself intended. Especially on the internet.

Thanks for the clarification and it was indeed impossible to make it much clearer then the step-to-step post above it. It just never occured to me that mortibound could mean something else then 'on it's way to the graveyard/discardpile'.

 

The reason I said sorry was because I regard you as a someone who invests alot of time, effort in explaining the rules even if it's the hundrieth time someone asked a question. It's great to have someone like that in the communitiy.