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Darkcloak

What if Green Dice...

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Had an extra focus result instead of a blank?

 

Have a look at your green dice for a sec.

 

One half of the die is way better than the other half.  No matter how you hold it, one half has 2 evades and a focus result and one blank.  The other half of the die has only one evade, one focus, but two blanks.  No matter which way you spin it, hold it, no matter which way that die falls, it's imbalanced.  Not by weight but by result.  An unfortunate side effect of using D8s?  Probably, I'm no math whiz, but maybe someone else is.

 

I read that article about the red dice paradigm shift too and it got me thinking.  How can we give everyone a defensive boost in the face of the ever increasing accuracy of red dice and still keep it simple and not over-powering.  Hard hitting red dice make the game go fast and that's part of the fun, but there is also something to be said for being able to weather that storm too and survive enough to win.  It does seem like the only ships that can do that now are the ships that are protected by health, while ships that rely on agility have a very hard time indeed. 

 

So maybe we ought to make those green dice a bit better somehow?  We have all been burned way too many times by the dreaded green tide of blanks, but can we really change the dice themselves?  Do we even want to?  I'll admit, I'd be happy to pitch my green dice in the bloody bin... maybe even torture them a bit!  But maybe we don't need to?  Perhaps just a card would do?

 

Yes, another card!  In another new ship!  Come on FFG.  You made red dice hit like turbolasers, let's have some love for the green dice now!

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I agree. Just balance the greens with 1 more focus. I dont think it would prolong game times much. There is a million ways to modify red dice and only a couple for those green bas***** dice.

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if you make ships have even higher defenses then you push weaker red dice ships out. You have to be able to damage the enemy, or the game bogs down to nothing. How many games go to time limit instead of finishing? 

 

I hate to say this as a mostly imperial player who loves to stack and rely on green dice, but they are fine. My store championship (24 player) had the top two fleets running imperial green dice ships. Knocking of ghosts and what not to get there. 

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It would be nice, making green dice more focus action dependent. And lol, it might actually nerf Autothrusters a bit (for those cases where ships spend their focus tokens prior to defending). Though, Poe gets a buff, which is kind of funny.

Also, the evade token loses some value, haha.

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Like double crit reds, but only 2 evade greens?  Or triple evades and no crits!

 

ALL CRITS AND NO EVADES!

 

Wait... I'm going backwards now...

 

Or something more sane like maybe an EPT like Predator, but for greens.  But not Lone Wolf.  Actually, Lone Wolf is perfect.  **** cyclical thought process!

Edited by Darkcloak

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Theorist's article about how the easy access to hyper accurate attacks has pushed generics out of the meta is wrong. It's wrong and I have no clue why everyone is believing it. Just because it's on Team Covenant doesn't mean anything.

 

It's hyper damage mitigation that has pushed generics out of the meta. Buffing green dice would just make vanilla joustwings even more obsolete. Poe, Soontir, Palpatine, C-3PO, higher PS reactive boost/BR, etc. makes it such that even with a 3/3 hit attack there is often very little chance of hitting anything.

 

When I throw a 4/4 hit attack at a Soontir with one health and my opponent converts a blank blank focus roll to 4 evades with Autothrusters, Focus, Evade, and Palpatine I don't know what else I can do.

 

This game was supposed to err towards offense being better than defense. The game falls apart when you put a bunch of generics against Palp Aces, one side simply has invincible ships and the other does not.

 

And then Theorist suggests a bunch of hard counters to 1 agility ships that have no chance in hell of hitting an Acewing. I don't give a flying **** that my ps 2 3 attack dice ship has 5-6 hull behind 2 agility instead of 8 hull behind 1 agility, that doesn't matter. What matters is that when I face a Soontir or Poe player, my 3 dice+Focus mean absolutely nothing because damage mitigation has surpassed normal 3 attack dice+focus joustwing offense, not because high health low agility is a little better than medium health and medium agility or low health high agility.

Edited by ParaGoomba Slayer

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I wouldn't change the dice, as mentioned that would put the hurt on things in other ways.

 

I do agree there needs to be more ways to mod agility though.   Just the other day I was joking/complaining that there are so many ways now to modify red dice and/or auto-hits, why do I even bother throwing greens in defense?  (Although, then I fly Fel and I think Greens are fine.  Till he blanks with 5 of them and gets one-shot'ed...)

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Theorist's article about how the easy access to hyper accurate attacks has pushed generics out of the meta is wrong. It's wrong and I have no clue why everyone is believing it. Just because it's on Team Covenant doesn't mean anything.

 

It's hyper damage mitigation that has pushed generics out of the meta. Buffing green dice would just make vanilla joustwings even more obsolete. Poe, Soontir, Palpatine, C-3PO, higher PS reactive boost/BR, etc. makes it such that even with a 3/3 hit attack there is often very little chance of hitting anything.

 

When I throw a 4/4 hit attack at a Soontir with one health and my opponent converts a blank blank focus roll to 4 evades with Autothrusters, Focus, Evade, and Palpatine I don't know what else I can do.

 

This game was supposed to err towards offense being better than defense. The game falls apart when you put a bunch of generics against Palp Aces, one side simply has invincible ships and the other does not.

 

And then Theorist suggests a bunch of hard counters to 1 agility ships that have no chance in hell of hitting an Acewing. I don't give a flying **** that my ps 2 3 attack dice ship has 5-6 hull behind 2 agility instead of 8 hull behind 1 agility, that doesn't matter. What matters is that when I face a Soontir or Poe player, my 3 dice+Focus mean absolutely nothing because damage mitigation has surpassed normal 3 attack dice+focus joustwing offense, not because high health low agility is a little better than medium health and medium agility or low health high agility.

 

 

This is well said. That article is bad, this forum has a huge knee jerk bandwagon reaction to things that are "to good" or "not viable". generic tie fighters are not not played right now because their defense is no good they are not played because they cant put any damage through. I run tie/fo's with juke and trust me there defense is the last problem they have.

Edited by Icelom

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What if one of the evade results was a double evade, like the double hits in armada.

LOL...

 

Palp would be even better than he is now?

 

I can only imagine the frustration of a Phantom at Range 1 Rolling 5 Crits and having them all dodged on 3 defense dice + tokens by Soontir....

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..... no no no no no.  

 

Things that make 2 die attacks better without being just weird 3dice attacks (like ATC) and stuff that punishes low agility large ships really hard. 

Also stuff that punishes 2 ship builds.  

I agree.  I'd personally like to see more Crack Shot-esque effects. Or Reverse R4-D6.

 

"If the target of your attack has 3 or more Evade results after the Defender Modifies step, you may cancel Evade results to a minimum of 1 and receive a stress for each Evade result cancelled."

 

Or something.  Make it non-unique and usable by generics.

 

EDIT: Gosh, they had such a big opportunity with Targeting Astromech....

Edited by Hida77

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What if one of the evade results was a double evade, like the double hits in armada.

Then games would take twice as long...

 

Not if we had a face on the red die that was a double hit, or a hit & crit (also like Armada)

Honestly, they did so many better things with the Armada attack dice. Three different ranges, with different probabilities at each range, and even different effects on different range dice.

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What if one of the evade results was a double evade, like the double hits in armada.

Then games would take twice as long...

Not if we had a face on the red die that was a double hit, or a hit & crit (also like Armada)

Honestly, they did so many better things with the Armada attack dice. Three different ranges, with different probabilities at each range, and even different effects on different range dice.

Sounds like you found your preferred game.

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The blanks help weaker ships do damage. I would like to see more abilities that affect green dice. Right now its all about how can I maneuver and do damage the most efficent way with my ship. We need green abilities to give another option. Autothrusters did wonders for interceptors. Instead they would have to go Stealth Device and Hull upgrade - UGH! More defense please! Just make us pay squad points for em.

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The blanks help weaker ships do damage. I would like to see more abilities that affect green dice. Right now its all about how can I maneuver and do damage the most efficent way with my ship. We need green abilities to give another option. Autothrusters did wonders for interceptors. Instead they would have to go Stealth Device and Hull upgrade - UGH! More defense please! Just make us pay squad points for em.

I honestly think the game is finally at a balance.  Before, the only type of Defense was hull and shield points.  Early meta shows this, Fat Han, Biggs Walks the Dogs, BBBBZ....  Now, we're seeing more arc dodgers, small ace lists, and the return of the swarm.

 

This is a fast paced game that was always meant to play to an offensive minded strategy.  In a 100 point tournament squad, if you're thinking defense you've already lost.  It's all about who can put out more damage faster.  If the green dice were any more effective, than this game would depend even more on luck than it already does.  Presently, I think the skill to luck ratio is at a fun place in what decides the outcome of the game.

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IMO, any buff to defense needs to be limited in some manner in order to avoid making highly defensive aces like soontir OP, or further marginalizing ships with 2 red dice risk. (I realize there are some powerful builds with 2 red ships, but in general, these ships are rather limited in how they can be built and still remain competitive).

 

Perhaps restricting it to some combination of ships with 2 or fewer green dice, small ship only, and/or below a certain PS would rejuvenate some of the generics and lower level uniques that don't see much play. 

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