Is this a judgment a TO can make?

[dangerJ 36]

At a recent store championship a player entered with only a print out of his upgrades. No actual cards. The TO allowed it, but I'm not sure he can allow it.

This issue was compounded when the player used the upgrades improperly (used opportunist on a ship that already had a stress) and stated it didn't say he couldn't on the print out.

Edited March 27, 2016 by dangerJ

[Parravon 5,217]

The final say still goes to the TO, but having an incomplete list is still pretty dodgy. The tournament rules require players to have the correct components, and that includes all the cards in their list. I would expect at Store Championship level, the tournament rules should be followed.

 

If someone had a copy of Opportunist, that should have been used to sort out the issue. At the end of the day, the actual card will ALWAYS trump a printed list, regardless of the Squad Builder (if any) that was used.

Edited March 27, 2016 by Parravon

[namdoolb 290]

I'm not sure on that one either.

 

On one hand, as long as the player can prove ownership of the requisite cards I don't have any particular problem with them not carting them around (although it is still very bad form IMO).

 

On the other hand, not having actual copies of the cards to refer to causes exactly the kind of problem that occurred.

 

I can understand the position of the TO not wanting to turn a player away from the tournament, but I really hope that the player was made aware of his error (in not bringing the correct resources) and told in no uncertain terms that he would not be allowed to do it again.

[Dr Zoidberg 3,200]

The official FFG rules are quite clear that players must have all components on the day; that includes cards.

 

The TO ruled wrong on this occasion, in my opinion.  The player should have been required to demonstrate he had all the required cards, otherwise been prohibited from playing.

 

Casual play?  Proxy away.  Store Championship?  Sorry champ, the rules are there for a reason.

[joliversc 23]

X-Wing Rules 2.0 page 17

Gather Forces: The players reveal their squads and gather all of the ships, cards, and other components necessary for their squads. Each ship in the squad must have the correct plastic ship, ship token, maneuver dial, Ship card, and any Upgrade cards chosen, as well as ID tokens if necessary.

[USCGrad90 884]

Are you kidding me?

The Tournament Rules say that card proxies are not allowed. The TO not following rules is wrong and should be reported to FFG.

The Opportunist problem is a perfect example of why this should not be allowed.

I haven't taken a Crack Swarm to a tournament beacause I don't have the cards and can't borrow enough on short notice.

Sorry to go on, but this really burns me up.

Start carrying a copy of the rules and point out when a TO is blatently wrong.

[player1399050 42]

Having been a TO, I see the bind that the TO was in.  Where is the bigger hurt... causing one player not to be able to play or not following the rules and inconveniencing the whole field.  I wouldn't have made the choice that this TO did.

I probably would have tried to find a legal list for this guy to fly... even if it only means that he has to fly generics without upgrades. 

[Dr Zoidberg 3,200]

Having been a TO, I see the bind that the TO was in.  Where is the bigger hurt... causing one player not to be able to play or not following the rules and inconveniencing the whole field.  I wouldn't have made the choice that this TO did.

I probably would have tried to find a legal list for this guy to fly... even if it only means that he has to fly generics without upgrades. 

 

I'm sorry, but how exactly was the TO "in a bind"?  Part of the role of a TO is to ensure the rules are adhered to by all players.  This player was clearly not doing that.  The TO failed in his duties.  It's a clear cut case; particularly given it was a store championship.  Bring all the required components or don't play.

 

And as for the player himself, since he was coming to a store championship, he should have read the relevant FFG tournament rules and known to bring everything in the first place.

[Hida77 951]

 

Having been a TO, I see the bind that the TO was in.  Where is the bigger hurt... causing one player not to be able to play or not following the rules and inconveniencing the whole field.  I wouldn't have made the choice that this TO did.

I probably would have tried to find a legal list for this guy to fly... even if it only means that he has to fly generics without upgrades. 

 

I'm sorry, but how exactly was the TO "in a bind"?  Part of the role of a TO is to ensure the rules are adhered to by all players.  This player was clearly not doing that.  The TO failed in his duties.  It's a clear cut case; particularly given it was a store championship.  Bring all the required components or don't play.

 

And as for the player himself, since he was coming to a store championship, he should have read the relevant FFG tournament rules and known to bring everything in the first place.

 

Agree 100%.  Cannot even fathom what the TO was thinking.

[DailyRich 3,346]

 

 

Having been a TO, I see the bind that the TO was in.  Where is the bigger hurt... causing one player not to be able to play or not following the rules and inconveniencing the whole field.  I wouldn't have made the choice that this TO did.

I probably would have tried to find a legal list for this guy to fly... even if it only means that he has to fly generics without upgrades. 

 

I'm sorry, but how exactly was the TO "in a bind"?  Part of the role of a TO is to ensure the rules are adhered to by all players.  This player was clearly not doing that.  The TO failed in his duties.  It's a clear cut case; particularly given it was a store championship.  Bring all the required components or don't play.

 

And as for the player himself, since he was coming to a store championship, he should have read the relevant FFG tournament rules and known to bring everything in the first place.

 

Agree 100%.  Cannot even fathom what the TO was thinking.

 

 

"My store doesn't want to lose this guy's entry fee."

 

Okay, maybe nothing that cutthroat.  Maybe he just didn't want to tell a guy who came all the way out for the tournament nope, you can't play.

 

Not defending the decision -- if you're playing for FFG items, you should bring FFG items to the tournament -- but it could have just been the TO trying to be a nice guy.

[Parravon 5,217]

Are you kidding me?

The Tournament Rules say that card proxies are not allowed. The TO not following rules is wrong and should be reported to FFG.

The Opportunist problem is a perfect example of why this should not be allowed.

I haven't taken a Crack Swarm to a tournament beacause I don't have the cards and can't borrow enough on short notice.

Sorry to go on, but this really burns me up.

Start carrying a copy of the rules and point out when a TO is blatently wrong.

Well, according to the OP, it was a list not card proxies, but as I stated, you should never trust a squad builder as I've seen those damned things steer people wrong on too many occasions. If you report the TO to FFG, what are they going to do? Take away his TO licence? This is the problem that you will sometimes get in a self-governed game where the TO is only a marginal step up from the players and not sanctioned by any type of governing body. 

 

The TO may have made a bad call by allowing it, but he may have made it worse by not checking the list properly either. That way the Opportunist drama could have been averted. This does have the smell of an unprepared TO to it.

[Firespray-32 5,424]

If the TO were to allow it he should have checked the printout. This player was proxying to cheat, as evident in his doctored Opportunist text.

 

Personally, I think the correct approach would be to laugh in the cheating player's face, then cry out of sympathy. Anyone who cheats at X-Wing of all things is too pitiful to hate. He just needs a hug.

[Parravon 5,217]

If the TO were to allow it he should have checked the printout. This player was proxying to cheat, as evident in his doctored Opportunist text.

 

Personally, I think the correct approach would be to laugh in the cheating player's face, then cry out of sympathy. Anyone who cheats at X-Wing of all things is too pitiful to hate. He just needs a hug.

OK, two things:

1. Yes, the TO should have checked the printout thoroughly, there's no disputing that.
2. It's just an assumption that the player was "proxying to cheat, as evident in his doctored Opportunist text." He may have typed the list up himself and not copied the card text properly. He may have used a squad builder that may not have had the correct text. Without solid evidence of intent, it's unreasonable to assume someone is cheating.

We've had this "cheating" debate recently. And the end result is there has to be intent in order to qualify as cheating. And cheating should be dealt with harshly. Breaking the rules without intent to cheat, is quite a different matter and as such should be dealt with differently. Either way, it's the TO's call, and in this case the only thing we know for sure was, the TO was not entirely up to the task.

[Slugrage 5,011]

It's a no-brainer. The tournament rules are crystal clear that each player must have all components. This is not a RAW/RAI debate.

That said, the player had the opportunity to ask others for the required cards to build the list but not, in my mind, at the cost of delaying the tournament. Be ready to go at the posted start time, or take the loss. Then you'll have plenty of time to find cards for the next round.

[USCGrad90 884]

Are you kidding me?

The Tournament Rules say that card proxies are not allowed. The TO not following rules is wrong and should be reported to FFG.

The Opportunist problem is a perfect example of why this should not be allowed.

I haven't taken a Crack Swarm to a tournament beacause I don't have the cards and can't borrow enough on short notice.

Sorry to go on, but this really burns me up.

Start carrying a copy of the rules and point out when a TO is blatently wrong.

Well, according to the OP, it was a list not card proxies, but as I stated, you should never trust a squad builder as I've seen those damned things steer people wrong on too many occasions. If you report the TO to FFG, what are they going to do? Take away his TO licence? This is the problem that you will sometimes get in a self-governed game where the TO is only a marginal step up from the players and not sanctioned by any type of governing body. 

 

The TO may have made a bad call by allowing it, but he may have made it worse by not checking the list properly either. That way the Opportunist drama could have been averted. This does have the smell of an unprepared TO to it.

A list is a proxy. It is not a legal replacement for cards. The store championship gives a regional bye and FFG can take that opportunity away from the store for future events.

[ParaGoomba Slayer 3,180]

I think it's ridiculous that that everyone is buttmad that someone proxies cards. I understand that it's in FFG's best interest to require no proxies, but it's okay to break the law if the law isn't doing any moral good. Just don't be a V6 IROC Turbo ****** and let the guy play and don't tell FFG.

"I work at Walmart and I work HARD for my $10 an hour, how dare these fast food workers ask for $15!". I HAVE TO SUFFER SO YOU HAVE TO SUFFER TOO.

Besides for wave 8 I have a near complete set of this game. If someone wants to proxy be my guest.

[kryzak 215]

As the TO for that said tournament, I have to step in to correct the statement and facts. 

 

1. The player involved HAD the cards and could produce it if requested, but it was NEVER requested by the original poster to the TO during the match.

2. Cards are NECESSARY for Store championship level or higher competition, and if the player requests his/her opponent to produce it, as TO I would enforce that.  As TO, I allow players to use their printed lists if both players of that match agrees to it AND that any player can challenge the other to produce and examine the cards. 

3. The misinterpretation of Opportunist was completely unintentional (the player involved is very well known in the community and no one would ever accuse him of intentionally cheating on anything), and the issue at hand was that both players did not catch that the "You cannot use this ability if you have any stress tokens." because it was printed on the OTHER side of the page.  It was not that the printout was inaccurate.

4. If the players demanded a way to rectify the match while it was going on, I would have asked them to try to back out the times it was used and penalized the player who unintentionally misinterpreted the rules based on when it was misused, to my best abilities, e.g. remove HP or even a ship from the board at that point.  BUT this was NOT officially requested during the game nor after the match.

 

I believe this thread has been blown out of proportion by other posters (not the original poster) with incomplete facts.  I'm sorry for what happened to the original poster, and hopefully in the future players will be encouraged to challenge their opponent on components or rules immediately with the TO and ask for rectification during the match. 

[Jeff Wilder 5,326]

At a recent store championship a player entered with only a print out of his upgrades. No actual cards. The TO allowed it, but I'm not sure he can allow it.

This issue was compounded when the player used the upgrades improperly (used opportunist on a ship that already had a stress) and stated it didn't say he couldn't on the print out.

 

I think this was me.  For the record, I had the cards.  I've never actually been asked to produce the cards -- in probably well over 100 tournament games -- but I always have them at tournaments.  I always have a visual representation on my (YA)SB printout that, IMO, is actually easier to track than cards.  (For example, I have a Proton Torpedo token, and Droid tokens for IA, and so on.  And I always explain what they are to my opponent.) I always have the ships ID-tagged, and the number written boldly and highlighted on the printout.  I bring an extra printout for my opponent to read and reference.

 

I missed my opponent's Proton Rockets, for instance, because the cards were all in a binder sleeve.  That's not at all his fault; it's mine.  I'm just pointing out that I find the visual jumble of cards in a binder page to be more confusing than a (YA)SB printout ... usually.

 

In this case, having never used Opportunist until last week, I just got it wrong.  (Mea culpa, and in fairness it was because of the printout ... because of the formatting the last line of text was shockingly easy to miss.)  But my opponent looked it up, and also missed it.  I don't even know if the one time I did it wrong it even mattered, aside from giving me an extra stress.

 

We caught it too late to fix, or even (in my case) to remember if it was even to my benefit, and I apologized several times and felt badly about it.  Since he didn't express any of this to me, even while I was apologizing, but instead went to the TO after the fact, and then came here ... well, I have to admit that I'm kinda feeling less bad about it.  (I feel worse about last week, because I believe I did it then, also.)

 

I would never cheat at X-Wing.  I just screwed up one line on one card.

[Parravon 5,217]

 

At a recent store championship a player entered with only a print out of his upgrades. No actual cards. The TO allowed it, but I'm not sure he can allow it.

This issue was compounded when the player used the upgrades improperly (used opportunist on a ship that already had a stress) and stated it didn't say he couldn't on the print out.

 

I think this was me.  For the record, I had the cards.  I've never actually been asked to produce the cards -- in probably well over 100 tournament games -- but I always have them at tournaments.  I always have a visual representation on my (YA)SB printout that, IMO, is actually easier to track than cards.  (For example, I have a Proton Torpedo token, and Droid tokens for IA, and so on.  And I always explain what they are to my opponent.) I always have the ships ID-tagged, and the number written boldly and highlighted on the printout.  I bring an extra printout for my opponent to read and reference.

 

I missed my opponent's Proton Rockets, for instance, because the cards were all in a binder sleeve.  That's not at all his fault; it's mine.  I'm just pointing out that I find the visual jumble of cards in a binder page to be more confusing than a (YA)SB printout ... usually.

 

In this case, having never used Opportunist until last week, I just got it wrong.  (Mea culpa, and in fairness it was because of the printout ... because of the formatting the last line of text was shockingly easy to miss.)  But my opponent looked it up, and also missed it.  I don't even know if the one time I did it wrong it even mattered, aside from giving me an extra stress.

 

We caught it too late to fix, or even (in my case) to remember if it was even to my benefit, and I apologized several times and felt badly about it.  Since he didn't express any of this to me, even while I was apologizing, but instead went to the TO after the fact, and then came here ... well, I have to admit that I'm kinda feeling less bad about it.  (I feel worse about last week, because I believe I did it then, also.)

 

I would never cheat at X-Wing.  I just screwed up one line on one card.

 

Thanks for clearing that up Jeff. The only thing I'm unsure of now is, was the OP your opponent at the time, or someone that was not involved?

[Jeff Wilder 5,326]

Actually, that's a good question. I don't know if the OP was my opponent, and I shouldn't have assumed it was.

[DraconPyrothayan 6,107]

We've all been there.

Personally, I recommend printing the decklist for quick reference, but also having the cards out, in stacks corresponding to the pilots (e.g. Soontir Fel's card has the Autothrusters, RG Title, Stealth Device, and PTL cards sitting on top of it). 
​The more visuals you have of your own fleet helps you to remember options you otherwise would forget.

 

Also, as a League Organizer, I take their decklists, make sure everything's legal, and actually do printed out List vs List match-ups... for League, where I have the luxury of time, and everyone wants to play against everyone.

[Vulf 911]

The guy says he has had a week to obtain the card after proxying it before?

[player1399050 42]

 

Having been a TO, I see the bind that the TO was in.  Where is the bigger hurt... causing one player not to be able to play or not following the rules and inconveniencing the whole field.  I wouldn't have made the choice that this TO did.

I probably would have tried to find a legal list for this guy to fly... even if it only means that he has to fly generics without upgrades. 

 

I'm sorry, but how exactly was the TO "in a bind"?  Part of the role of a TO is to ensure the rules are adhered to by all players.  This player was clearly not doing that.  The TO failed in his duties.  It's a clear cut case; particularly given it was a store championship.  Bring all the required components or don't play.

 

 

 

TO's are not only responsible for adjudicating the rules of the game but also responsible for helping the community grow.  You don't grow the community by turning people away. You make things work.

I'm glad that the TO and the player involved have stepped up to explain things.  No harm, no foul... though I think that having the cards on the table may have been a better choice.

Edited March 28, 2016 by Wizzardx3

[ScottieATF 2,867]

I'd say calling it "no harm, no foul" would be incorrect as an upgrade was misplayed because the allowed substitution was mis/poorly printed. So there certainly was a foul as a result of the TO allowing a player to work around the rules on the subject in that manner.

Edited March 28, 2016 by ScottieATF

[kryzak 215]

 

At a recent store championship a player entered with only a print out of his upgrades. No actual cards. The TO allowed it, but I'm not sure he can allow it.

This issue was compounded when the player used the upgrades improperly (used opportunist on a ship that already had a stress) and stated it didn't say he couldn't on the print out.

 

I think this was me.  For the record, I had the cards.  I've never actually been asked to produce the cards -- in probably well over 100 tournament games -- but I always have them at tournaments.  I always have a visual representation on my (YA)SB printout that, IMO, is actually easier to track than cards.  (For example, I have a Proton Torpedo token, and Droid tokens for IA, and so on.  And I always explain what they are to my opponent.) I always have the ships ID-tagged, and the number written boldly and highlighted on the printout.  I bring an extra printout for my opponent to read and reference.

 

I missed my opponent's Proton Rockets, for instance, because the cards were all in a binder sleeve.  That's not at all his fault; it's mine.  I'm just pointing out that I find the visual jumble of cards in a binder page to be more confusing than a (YA)SB printout ... usually.

 

In this case, having never used Opportunist until last week, I just got it wrong.  (Mea culpa, and in fairness it was because of the printout ... because of the formatting the last line of text was shockingly easy to miss.)  But my opponent looked it up, and also missed it.  I don't even know if the one time I did it wrong it even mattered, aside from giving me an extra stress.

 

We caught it too late to fix, or even (in my case) to remember if it was even to my benefit, and I apologized several times and felt badly about it.  Since he didn't express any of this to me, even while I was apologizing, but instead went to the TO after the fact, and then came here ... well, I have to admit that I'm kinda feeling less bad about it.  (I feel worse about last week, because I believe I did it then, also.)

 

I would never cheat at X-Wing.  I just screwed up one line on one card.

 

 

One more point of clarification for Jeff.  The OP was NOT the player involved.   He did not ask for this to be posted and it was a friend of his that heard about it and wanted to get clarification and posted here. 

Edited March 28, 2016 by kryzak