Dengar's ability

[XBear 263]

Does it trigger immediately after defending, regardless of PS order, or is it done at PS0?

 

If Dengar is killed by an attack, does his ability let him attack only if the killing attack was PS9? --------> If the killing attack was PS10, Dengar dies and does not attack at all. If the killing attack was PS8, Dengar has already shot, and he dies without attacking back with his ability.

[WWHSD 9,273]

Does it trigger immediately after defending, regardless of PS order, or is it done at PS0?

 

It happens immediately after defending.

 

 

If Dengar is killed by an attack, does his ability let him attack only if the killing attack was PS9? --------> If the killing attack was PS10, Dengar dies and does not attack at all. If the killing attack was PS8, Dengar has already shot, and he dies without attacking back with his ability.

 

If he is killed by an attack, his ship is destroyed before the trigger for his counter-attack. 

 

I'm not sure what happens in the event of simultaneous fire, but I believe that he would get either his counter-attack or regular attack but not both before being removed.

[thespaceinvader 17,568]

If Dengar is attacked and killed by someone higher OR lower PS than him, his ability cannot trigger, per the rule about abilities and upgrades being disabled when a ship is destroyed.

 

If he's attacked by someone with the same PS AND who has the initiative, it's arguable, and we don't have a firm answer, but it seems most likely to me that his ability can fire, and he then takes his normal Simultaneous Fire shot before expiring. (And thus you see the fact that it's arguable and needs FAQing.)

Edited March 25, 2016 by thespaceinvader

[Engine25 2,910]

If Dengar is attacked and killed by someone higher OR lower PS than him, his ability cannot trigger, per the rule about abilities and upgrades being disabled when a ship is destroyed.

 

If he's attacked by someone with the same PS AND who has the initiative, it's arguable, and we don't have a firm answer, but it seems most likely to me that his ability can fire, and he then takes his normal Simultaneous Fire shot before expiring. (And thus you see the fact that it's arguable and needs FAQing.)

Rules add written, his retaliation attack satisfies the requirements of the Simultaneous Attack Rule, and he therefore would not be allowed to attack twice. The rules do not delineate between a ship's normal attack and additional attacks from abilities. An attack is an attack.

As a parallel example, it is listed in the FAQ that Corran Horn's additional attack in the end phase satisfies the requirements of Blinded Pilot.

Soontir Fel shoots Dengar, and deals enough damage to destroy him. Dengar is allowed to perform an attack due to the Simultaneous Attack Rule. HE can EITHER retaliate OR perform his standard PS9 attack, but not both. As soon as one of the attacks resolves, SAR is resolved and Dengar is removed from play.

[thespaceinvader 17,568]

 

If Dengar is attacked and killed by someone higher OR lower PS than him, his ability cannot trigger, per the rule about abilities and upgrades being disabled when a ship is destroyed.

 

If he's attacked by someone with the same PS AND who has the initiative, it's arguable, and we don't have a firm answer, but it seems most likely to me that his ability can fire, and he then takes his normal Simultaneous Fire shot before expiring. (And thus you see the fact that it's arguable and needs FAQing.)

Rules add written, his retaliation attack satisfies the requirements of the Simultaneous Attack Rule, and he therefore would not be allowed to attack twice. The rules do not delineate between a ship's normal attack and additional attacks from abilities. An attack is an attack.

As a parallel example, it is listed in the FAQ that Corran Horn's additional attack in the end phase satisfies the requirements of Blinded Pilot.

Soontir Fel shoots Dengar, and deals enough damage to destroy him. Dengar is allowed to perform an attack due to the Simultaneous Attack Rule. HE can EITHER retaliate OR perform his standard PS9 attack, but not both. As soon as one of the attacks resolves, SAR is resolved and Dengar is removed from play.

 

I don't think that's the intention, nor do I think that's how it will be ruled.  But it's clear as noted that this like so many still unresolved questions from this wave, needs FAQing.

[Parravon 5,217]

 

 

If Dengar is attacked and killed by someone higher OR lower PS than him, his ability cannot trigger, per the rule about abilities and upgrades being disabled when a ship is destroyed.

 

If he's attacked by someone with the same PS AND who has the initiative, it's arguable, and we don't have a firm answer, but it seems most likely to me that his ability can fire, and he then takes his normal Simultaneous Fire shot before expiring. (And thus you see the fact that it's arguable and needs FAQing.)

Rules add written, his retaliation attack satisfies the requirements of the Simultaneous Attack Rule, and he therefore would not be allowed to attack twice. The rules do not delineate between a ship's normal attack and additional attacks from abilities. An attack is an attack.

As a parallel example, it is listed in the FAQ that Corran Horn's additional attack in the end phase satisfies the requirements of Blinded Pilot.

Soontir Fel shoots Dengar, and deals enough damage to destroy him. Dengar is allowed to perform an attack due to the Simultaneous Attack Rule. HE can EITHER retaliate OR perform his standard PS9 attack, but not both. As soon as one of the attacks resolves, SAR is resolved and Dengar is removed from play.

 

I don't think that's the intention, nor do I think that's how it will be ruled.  But it's clear as noted that this like so many still unresolved questions from this wave, needs FAQing.

 

I don't think so. I think Engine25 is right on the money with this. The SAR only allows a ship to have an opportunity to attack and then it considered destroyed and removed from the play area. It doesn't get the second attack, as either the normal attack or the ability counter-attack is still an opportunity to attack.

The intention when it comes to this particular SAR scenario is more than just vague, whereas the rules are pretty clear.

 

Dengar is attacked and destroyed triggering the SAR. He's just defended, so can he use his ability to counter attack? - Yes he can.

SAR says he gets an opportunity to attack. Has he just attacked? - Yes he has, so he's removed according to the SAR.

 

 

The question that can arise is, does his ability count as an opportunity to attack? Of course it does. It's an attack, isn't it? If it's not an opportunity to attack, then what exactly is it?

[Engine25 2,910]

If Dengar is attacked and killed by someone higher OR lower PS than him, his ability cannot trigger, per the rule about abilities and upgrades being disabled when a ship is destroyed.

 

If he's attacked by someone with the same PS AND who has the initiative, it's arguable, and we don't have a firm answer, but it seems most likely to me that his ability can fire, and he then takes his normal Simultaneous Fire shot before expiring. (And thus you see the fact that it's arguable and needs FAQing.)

Rules add written, his retaliation attack satisfies the requirements of the Simultaneous Attack Rule, and he therefore would not be allowed to attack twice. The rules do not delineate between a ship's normal attack and additional attacks from abilities. An attack is an attack.

As a parallel example, it is listed in the FAQ that Corran Horn's additional attack in the end phase satisfies the requirements of Blinded Pilot.

Soontir Fel shoots Dengar, and deals enough damage to destroy him. Dengar is allowed to perform an attack due to the Simultaneous Attack Rule. HE can EITHER retaliate OR perform his standard PS9 attack, but not both. As soon as one of the attacks resolves, SAR is resolved and Dengar is removed from play.

I don't think that's the intention, nor do I think that's how it will be ruled.  But it's clear as noted that this like so many still unresolved questions from this wave, needs FAQing.

I don't think so. I think Engine25 is right on the money with this. The SAR only allows a ship to have an opportunity to attack and then it considered destroyed and removed from the play area. It doesn't get the second attack, as either the normal attack or the ability counter-attack is still an opportunity to attack.

The intention when it comes to this particular SAR scenario is more than just vague, whereas the rules are pretty clear.

 

Dengar is attacked and destroyed triggering the SAR. He's just defended, so can he use his ability to counter attack? - Yes he can.

SAR says he gets an opportunity to attack. Has he just attacked? - Yes he has, so he's removed according to the SAR.

 

 

The question that can arise is, does his ability count as an opportunity to attack? Of course it does. It's an attack, isn't it? If it's not an opportunity to attack, then what exactly is it?

Quite simply, an attack is an attack. The rules do not delineate. Therefore, Rules as Currently Written, any one attack satisfies the SAR.

[Parravon 5,217]

Absolutely!

[thespaceinvader 17,568]

RAW, I think you're right.

[thespaceinvader 17,568]

A more interesting question perhaps, though, is what if Dengar is killed by an attack from someone in his arc, but *doesn't* choose to use his ability because he'd prefer to take his normal at-PS attack against someone out of his arc or counterattack who hasn't yet attacked.  Does his pilot ability count as an opportunity to attack even if he doesn't use it?

[Parravon 5,217]

A more interesting question perhaps, though, is what if Dengar is killed by an attack from someone in his arc, but *doesn't* choose to use his ability because he'd prefer to take his normal at-PS attack against someone out of his arc or counterattack who hasn't yet attacked.  Does his pilot ability count as an opportunity to attack even if he doesn't use it?

If he's destroyed and held in place by the Simultaneous Attack Rule, he's removed as soon as he's had an opportunity to attack, regardless of whether or not he actually makes an attack. When it's his turn to attack, he may use his ability on the ship that attacked him, or he may check for targets elsewhere. If he chooses to not use his ability and instead attack someone outside his normal firing arc, then that's still taking an opportunity to attack, and he's removed as soon as the attack is completed and his ability will not trigger because he was just attacking and not defending. His ability trigger window has passed as soon as he decided to attack another ship other than the one that attacked him.

 

Here's a scenario that may help illustrate it:

Three ships in one corner the play area, no one else within Range 3 of any of them. Imperials have the initiative and it's the Combat Phase at PS9. Soontir attacks a wounded Dengar and destroys him. Simultaneous Attack Rule triggers for Dengar keeping him in the play area until he can attack. Scum player has Kath Scarlet (with VI, PS9) attack Soontir and destroys Soontir. Simultaneous Attack Rule is still in effect for Dengar, and it's now his opportunity to attack. But since Soontir has had his opportunity to attack and has been destroyed and removed, Dengar cannot use his ability on him, so he looks for other targets but they're all out of range. His opportunity to attack has resulted in no valid targets, so the Simultaneous Attack Rule now resolves and he is removed as destroyed.

Note the Simultaneous Attack Rule didn't keep Soontir in play because he had his attack first, due to initiative.

[Engine25 2,910]

He'd definitely get to perform an attack, just not both. He CAN choose to attack an out of arc target instead of his retaliation. SAR says perform an attack, does not mention opportunity to attack.

[WWHSD 9,273]

A more interesting question perhaps, though, is what if Dengar is killed by an attack from someone in his arc, but *doesn't* choose to use his ability because he'd prefer to take his normal at-PS attack against someone out of his arc or counterattack who hasn't yet attacked.  Does his pilot ability count as an opportunity to attack even if he doesn't use it?

If he's destroyed and held in place by the Simultaneous Attack Rule, he's removed as soon as he's had an opportunity to attack, regardless of whether or not he actually makes an attack. When it's his turn to attack, he may use his ability on the ship that attacked him, or he may check for targets elsewhere. If he chooses to not use his ability and instead attack someone outside his normal firing arc, then that's still taking an opportunity to attack, and he's removed as soon as the attack is completed and his ability will not trigger because he was just attacking and not defending. His ability trigger window has passed as soon as he decided to attack another ship other than the one that attacked him.

 

Here's a scenario that may help illustrate it:

Three ships in one corner the play area, no one else within Range 3 of any of them. Imperials have the initiative and it's the Combat Phase at PS9. Soontir attacks a wounded Dengar and destroys him. Simultaneous Attack Rule triggers for Dengar keeping him in the play area until he can attack. Scum player has Kath Scarlet (with VI, PS9) attack Soontir and destroys Soontir. Simultaneous Attack Rule is still in effect for Dengar, and it's now his opportunity to attack. But since Soontir has had his opportunity to attack and has been destroyed and removed, Dengar cannot use his ability on him, so he looks for other targets but they're all out of range. His opportunity to attack has resulted in no valid targets, so the Simultaneous Attack Rule now resolves and he is removed as destroyed.

Note the Simultaneous Attack Rule didn't keep Soontir in play because he had his attack first, due to initiative.

Why is Kath attacking before Dengar's ability has resolved? Dengar's ability triggers after he defends so it should trigger before moving on to the next attacker.

[Parravon 5,217]

He'd definitely get to perform an attack, just not both. He CAN choose to attack an out of arc target instead of his retaliation. SAR says perform an attack, does not mention opportunity to attack.

I think you need to read my example and the Simultaneous Attack Rule again. An "opportunity to attack" is a key phrase in the Simultaneous Attack Rule, and I'm not saying Dengar is denied his opportunity to attack. He still gets that. But in the order in which the scenario unfolded, the Scum player chose to use Kath instead of Dengar's ability first, and because Soontir was destroyed and had already attacked, Soontir was removed immediately after being destroyed by Kath. Keep in mind Soontir was the active ship at the beginning of the PS9 Combat and is not kept in play because of the Simultaneous Attack Rule.

This left Dengar still waiting for an opportunity to attack (via the Simultaneous Attack Rule) but now without a target. Even if the Scum player decided he wanted to use Dengar's ability, Soontir has been removed, and there are still no valid targets.

 

If by some weird interaction elsewhere on the play area, another ship comes into range of Dengar during the PS9 Combat, then the Simultaneous Attack Rule still being in effect for Dengar would allow him to attack before being removed.

 

@WWHSD: Kath is attacking before Dengar due to player's choice. Nothing else. I was thinking of a way to eliminate Soontir before Dengar had an attack. Dengar's ability does indeed trigger, but again that's also player's choice as to whether or not to use it. It's quite probable that a player would trigger Dengar's ability and attempt to destroy Soontir first. Maybe the attack from Kath's auxiliary arc looked more likely to destroy the pesky Baron and his annoying Autothrusters. Either way, Dengar is not being denied his opportunity to attack before being removed.

[Engine25 2,910]

He'd definitely get to perform an attack, just not both. He CAN choose to attack an out of arc target instead of his retaliation. SAR says perform an attack, does not mention opportunity to attack.

I think you need to read my example and the Simultaneous Attack Rule again. An "opportunity to attack" is a key phrase in the Simultaneous Attack Rule, and I'm not saying Dengar is denied his opportunity to attack. He still gets that. But in the order in which the scenario unfolded, the Scum player chose to use Kath instead of Dengar's ability first, and because Soontir was destroyed and had already attacked, Soontir was removed immediately after being destroyed by Kath. Keep in mind Soontir was the active ship at the beginning of the PS9 Combat and is not kept in play because of the Simultaneous Attack Rule.

This left Dengar still waiting for an opportunity to attack (via the Simultaneous Attack Rule) but now without a target. Even if the Scum player decided he wanted to use Dengar's ability, Soontir has been removed, and there are still no valid targets.

 

If by some weird interaction elsewhere on the play area, another ship comes into range of Dengar during the PS9 Combat, then the Simultaneous Attack Rule still being in effect for Dengar would allow him to attack before being removed.

 

@WWHSD: Kath is attacking before Dengar due to player's choice. Nothing else. I was thinking of a way to eliminate Soontir before Dengar had an attack. Dengar's ability does indeed trigger, but again that's also player's choice as to whether or not to use it. It's quite probable that a player would trigger Dengar's ability and attempt to destroy Soontir first. Maybe the attack from Kath's auxiliary arc looked more likely to destroy the pesky Baron and his annoying Autothrusters. Either way, Dengar is not being denied his opportunity to attack before being removed.

Ahh yeah this is why I shouldn't cite rules when I'm not looking at them. But in general, I still think we have a similar understanding of the ruling here. PS9 ship destroys Dengar, Dengar gets to attack once before he is removed.

[Warpman 2,115]

 

If Dengar is attacked and killed by someone higher OR lower PS than him, his ability cannot trigger, per the rule about abilities and upgrades being disabled when a ship is destroyed.

 

If he's attacked by someone with the same PS AND who has the initiative, it's arguable, and we don't have a firm answer, but it seems most likely to me that his ability can fire, and he then takes his normal Simultaneous Fire shot before expiring. (And thus you see the fact that it's arguable and needs FAQing.)

Rules add written, his retaliation attack satisfies the requirements of the Simultaneous Attack Rule, and he therefore would not be allowed to attack twice. The rules do not delineate between a ship's normal attack and additional attacks from abilities. An attack is an attack.

As a parallel example, it is listed in the FAQ that Corran Horn's additional attack in the end phase satisfies the requirements of Blinded Pilot.

Soontir Fel shoots Dengar, and deals enough damage to destroy him. Dengar is allowed to perform an attack due to the Simultaneous Attack Rule. HE can EITHER retaliate OR perform his standard PS9 attack, but not both. As soon as one of the attacks resolves, SAR is resolved and Dengar is removed from play.

 

Not correct.SAR refers to ship attack due to activation, while card effect is separate from activation during combat phase.

It can trigger during any phase when Dengar's attacked, be it combat phase or maybe even End phase (in case of Corran)

 

so nope, he gets his attack after he makes his ability's "out of sequence attack"

more than that, If he has a gunner, he can opt to use it when his (second for the maximum impact) attack misses, making a total of 3 rolls, with at least one of them being a special attack against Soontir.

 

IF he had the word "immediately" he would have been able to perform this specialm attack even in case of initiative or PS alterations from this ideal scenario. Hopefully the'll FAQ it in

[Parravon 5,217]

 

 

If Dengar is attacked and killed by someone higher OR lower PS than him, his ability cannot trigger, per the rule about abilities and upgrades being disabled when a ship is destroyed.

 

If he's attacked by someone with the same PS AND who has the initiative, it's arguable, and we don't have a firm answer, but it seems most likely to me that his ability can fire, and he then takes his normal Simultaneous Fire shot before expiring. (And thus you see the fact that it's arguable and needs FAQing.)

Rules add written, his retaliation attack satisfies the requirements of the Simultaneous Attack Rule, and he therefore would not be allowed to attack twice. The rules do not delineate between a ship's normal attack and additional attacks from abilities. An attack is an attack.

As a parallel example, it is listed in the FAQ that Corran Horn's additional attack in the end phase satisfies the requirements of Blinded Pilot.

Soontir Fel shoots Dengar, and deals enough damage to destroy him. Dengar is allowed to perform an attack due to the Simultaneous Attack Rule. HE can EITHER retaliate OR perform his standard PS9 attack, but not both. As soon as one of the attacks resolves, SAR is resolved and Dengar is removed from play.

 

Not correct.SAR refers to ship attack due to activation, while card effect is separate from activation during combat phase.

It can trigger during any phase when Dengar's attacked, be it combat phase or maybe even End phase (in case of Corran)

 

so nope, he gets his attack after he makes his ability's "out of sequence attack"

more than that, If he has a gunner, he can opt to use it when his (second for the maximum impact) attack misses, making a total of 3 rolls, with at least one of them being a special attack against Soontir.

 

IF he had the word "immediately" he would have been able to perform this specialm attack even in case of initiative or PS alterations from this ideal scenario. Hopefully the'll FAQ it in

 

No he doesn't. The SAR gives him an opportunity to attack. One opportunity. The SAR does not differentiate between types of attack. If Dengar uses his ability, then that's making an attack, so the SAR has been resolved and he's removed. The only way he would get more than one attack before being removed would be if he had Gunner because that immediately triggers on a missed attack.

[Engine25 2,910]

 

 

 

If Dengar is attacked and killed by someone higher OR lower PS than him, his ability cannot trigger, per the rule about abilities and upgrades being disabled when a ship is destroyed.

 

If he's attacked by someone with the same PS AND who has the initiative, it's arguable, and we don't have a firm answer, but it seems most likely to me that his ability can fire, and he then takes his normal Simultaneous Fire shot before expiring. (And thus you see the fact that it's arguable and needs FAQing.)

Rules add written, his retaliation attack satisfies the requirements of the Simultaneous Attack Rule, and he therefore would not be allowed to attack twice. The rules do not delineate between a ship's normal attack and additional attacks from abilities. An attack is an attack.

As a parallel example, it is listed in the FAQ that Corran Horn's additional attack in the end phase satisfies the requirements of Blinded Pilot.

Soontir Fel shoots Dengar, and deals enough damage to destroy him. Dengar is allowed to perform an attack due to the Simultaneous Attack Rule. HE can EITHER retaliate OR perform his standard PS9 attack, but not both. As soon as one of the attacks resolves, SAR is resolved and Dengar is removed from play.

 

Not correct.SAR refers to ship attack due to activation, while card effect is separate from activation during combat phase.

It can trigger during any phase when Dengar's attacked, be it combat phase or maybe even End phase (in case of Corran)

 

so nope, he gets his attack after he makes his ability's "out of sequence attack"

more than that, If he has a gunner, he can opt to use it when his (second for the maximum impact) attack misses, making a total of 3 rolls, with at least one of them being a special attack against Soontir.

 

IF he had the word "immediately" he would have been able to perform this specialm attack even in case of initiative or PS alterations from this ideal scenario. Hopefully the'll FAQ it in

 

No he doesn't. The SAR gives him an opportunity to attack. One opportunity. The SAR does not differentiate between types of attack. If Dengar uses his ability, then that's making an attack, so the SAR has been resolved and he's removed. The only way he would get more than one attack before being removed would be if he had Gunner because that immediately triggers on a missed attack.

 

 

@Warpman, as we've said repeatedly, Dengar's additional attack satisfies the requirements of Simultaneous Attack, as the game does not define attacks and ability attacks any differently.  An attack is an attack.

 

Pending FAQ, this is how it has to be ruled, but it may be a while before we get another FAQ update as we just got one with very few updates.

[trubrujah 53]

It is not that simple, Engine.

 

Simultaneous Attack Rule

Although ships perform their attacks one at a time during the Combat phase, all ships with the same pilot skill value have the opportunity to attack before being destroyed. If a ship is attacked by another ship with the same pilot skill and would be destroyed without having an opportunity to attack, it retains its Damage cards without being removed from the play area. After this ship has had its opportunity to attack this round, it is immediately destroyed and removed from the play area.

 

Emphasis mine.  Here is the problem with the wording in Rules Reference.  If all the above highlighted words said "an opportunity" it would clearly be your interpretation of the rules.  However, the first and third highlights seem to be referencing a specific opportunity to attack, not simply any opportunity (and the second highlight is a bit ambiguous).  If this is a specific opportunity, this must be interpreted as the normal attack you get (as this is what is being refereed to for every other ship out there).  If that is true, Dengar would get his payback attack and regular attack in instances where he does not have initiative and is destroyed by Simultaneous Fire.

 

We need a ruling for clarity, as I would argue that it is not as cut and dry as you present it to be.

[thespaceinvader 17,568]

Indeed, that's how I think it ought to work -  regardless of what else he does, he isn't removed until after he's taken his normal shot on initiative/PS - but of course, the ability was written after the rules were, so the rules don't adequately cover it, like a lot of the new stuff this wave.

[Engine25 2,910]

It is not that simple, Engine.

 

Simultaneous Attack Rule

Although ships perform their attacks one at a time during the Combat phase, all ships with the same pilot skill value have the opportunity to attack before being destroyed. If a ship is attacked by another ship with the same pilot skill and would be destroyed without having an opportunity to attack, it retains its Damage cards without being removed from the play area. After this ship has had its opportunity to attack this round, it is immediately destroyed and removed from the play area.

 

Emphasis mine.  Here is the problem with the wording in Rules Reference.  If all the above highlighted words said "an opportunity" it would clearly be your interpretation of the rules.  However, the first and third highlights seem to be referencing a specific opportunity to attack, not simply any opportunity (and the second highlight is a bit ambiguous).  If this is a specific opportunity, this must be interpreted as the normal attack you get (as this is what is being refereed to for every other ship out there).  If that is true, Dengar would get his payback attack and regular attack in instances where he does not have initiative and is destroyed by Simultaneous Fire.

 

We need a ruling for clarity, as I would argue that it is not as cut and dry as you present it to be.

  

Indeed, that's how I think it ought to work -  regardless of what else he does, he isn't removed until after he's taken his normal shot on initiative/PS - but of course, the ability was written after the rules were, so the rules don't adequately cover it, like a lot of the new stuff this wave.

Good points from both of you. I actually think that an FAQ entry changing this is possible. Might be a minute, like I said, but could be on its way.

As thespaceinvader mentions here, the rules of the game were not designed to accommodate multiple complete attacks from a single ship. It therefore does not acknowledge any difference between any types of attacks other than primary attacks and secondary weapon attacks. You may perform either a primary attack or a secondary attack as your attack granted through Pilot Skill order and Simultaneous Attack. It does not, however separate extra attacks from abilities and the attack the ship is always allowed to perform. All you can do is use the language that the game provides to define an attack. The SAR simply mentions an attack, not any type of attack. Therefore, as defined by the rules, any attack performed by the ship in question satisfies the requirements of the SAR.

[TheDarkPilot 79]

Well, this ship man... i tell ya...
That ship gives me sleepless nights.
Anyhow, i totally agree with the SAR and same PS. If a PS 9 attacks Dengar first and he would explode... he gets ONE op. to attack... either way...
What really breaks my head is the ruling on lower PS ships blowing him out of the water...
A PS 4 attacks Dengar while he has 1 Hull left... he would explode but did not use his ability yet...
He defends... rolls his dice... gets the 1 Hull damage that is needed to kill him... BUT before damage cards are dealt his ability would trigger since it happens after the defense but before the damage was dealt...
Which would be in the Rules Reference Step 5... Step 6 is Compare the results.. which is already after the defense step. And then Step 7 deals the damage....
 

Dengar is doing a simultaneous shot and whomever attacked him.

I might just not understand the rules anymore... so be it...
But im sure we need a FAQ on that.
He does in fact, no matter if blown up or not, defend.

"Defending" is the trigger not "after damage is dealt".

 

horrible.... i better stay with my empire... they just plain suck without needing lengthy FAQs

Edited March 28, 2016 by TheDarkPilot

[Parravon 5,217]

A PS 4 attacks Dengar while he has 1 Hull left... he would explode but did not use his ability yet...

He defends... rolls his dice... gets the 1 Hull damage that is needed to kill him... BUT before damage cards are dealt his ability would trigger since it happens after the defense but before the damage was dealt...

Which would be in the Rules Reference Step 5... Step 6 is Compare the results.. which is already after the defense step. And then Step 7 deals the damage....

 

Dengar is doing a simultaneous shot and whomever attacked him.

I might just not understand the rules anymore... so be it...

But im sure we need a FAQ on that.

He does in fact, no matter if blown up or not, defend.

"Defending" is the trigger not "after damage is dealt".

 

horrible.... i better stay with my empire... they just plain suck without needing lengthy FAQs

"After defending" and "after attacking" share the same timing and that is after all 7 steps of an attack have been completed, so his ability does not trigger before his destruction. He's destroyed during step 7 (Deal Damage) once he has enough damage cards.

 

Page 8, Card Abilities:

When a ship is destroyed, its card abilities are no longer active. The exceptions to this rule are card abilities whose effects have already been triggered and specify a time when the effect ends, such as “until the end of the Combat phase.”

[thespaceinvader 17,568]

Yup. Per xizor's ability (not to mention an email from the devs), defending includes suffering damage.

[Stoneface 3,750]

I'm usually wrong when I chime in on these discussions but I think Dengar's ability would trigger and here's why. The second paragraph under Golden Rule (RRG) says card abilities can override the rules listed here. The second reason was listed by Parravon above under Card Abilities. I think Dengar's ability is triggered by defending and it overrides the rules.

I can also think of an example where Dengar could use his ability and Simultaneous Fire in one round. But it would be in that order vs two PS-9's with initiative.

Ok, let the beatings commence.