Can a Phantom do a K-turn when undocking?

[hardbap 147]

I don't think it can based on the undocking rules specifying you use the rear guides of the docked ship but I'm hoping for clarification.

 

3. Take the docked ship and place it at the opposite end of the template, sliding the rear guides of the docked ship into the opposite end of the template. This counts as a maneuver. If this maneuver causes the docked ship to overlap an obstacle or another ship, it follows the normal rules for overlapping. If this causes a situation in which the docked ship cannot be placed in the play area, the docked ship is destroyed.

Edited March 24, 2016 by hardbap

[Stoneface 3,750]

Evidently no. There's a thread on the main page "When to pop the phantom" and references the rear guides. This is discussed there.

[dhowtocor 108]

It's the same wording under Execute Maneuver in the rules reference. But that does not prevent you from doing a K turn so I would say you could undock with a k turn.

[Dej2 40]

I think the VCX-1000 (Phantom) can only use maneuvers which use the rear guides of the ship. "Choose a maneuver on the Phantom's maneuver dial...Take the maneuver template that matches the chosen maneuver and slide the template between the rear guides of the Ghost. Take the Phantom ship and place it at the opposite end of the template, sliding the rear guides of the ship into the opposite end of the template. This counts as a maneuver... if the Phantom is not stressed, it may perform one action."

Edited March 24, 2016 by Dej2

[hardbap 147]

Evidently no. There's a thread on the main page "When to pop the phantom" and references the rear guides. This is discussed there.

 

I'm on that thread . It appears that the community is split on whether this is possible or not. I've sent an email so hopefully we can get closure on this one.

Edited March 24, 2016 by hardbap

[Stoneface 3,750]

Evidently no. There's a thread on the main page "When to pop the phantom" and references the rear guides. This is discussed there.

 

I'm on that thread . It appears that the community is split on whether this is possible or not. I've sent an email so hopefully we can get closure on this one.

If it's possible it will make for an interesting set of maneuvers.

[dhowtocor 108]

Following up on my post above, under Bearing in the rules reference the K-Turn instructs you to use the front guides instead of the rear guides. This allows you to do the K-Turn despite Execute Maneuver telling you to use the rear guides.

[Stoneface 3,750]

Following up on my post above, under Bearing in the rules reference the K-Turn instructs you to use the front guides instead of the rear guides. This allows you to do the K-Turn despite Execute Maneuver telling you to use the rear guides.

But the instructions for undocking the Phantom is specific about using the rear guides. If this was done for a reason, like to prevent the double K turn bomb toss, then that's it. If it was done because the Phantom was pointing that way,then there's a chance for an errata.

[dhowtocor 108]

 

Following up on my post above, under Bearing in the rules reference the K-Turn instructs you to use the front guides instead of the rear guides. This allows you to do the K-Turn despite Execute Maneuver telling you to use the rear guides.

But the instructions for undocking the Phantom is specific about using the rear guides. If this was done for a reason, like to prevent the double K turn bomb toss, then that's it. If it was done because the Phantom was pointing that way,then there's a chance for an errata.

 

I think people are reading too much into that phrase.  By that logic no ship could ever do a specialized maneuver as the Execute Maneuver under Activation states to use the rear guides when executing a maneuver.  The Bearing rules show where there are exceptions to the rear guide use.  No K-Turn for the Phantom would have to be an exception to the rules.  At this point a FAQ is all that will put an end to the debate.  To me the undocking is poorly worded if they were aiming at preventing a double k-turn.

Edited March 24, 2016 by dhowtocor

[Stoneface 3,750]

Following up on my post above, under Bearing in the rules reference the K-Turn instructs you to use the front guides instead of the rear guides. This allows you to do the K-Turn despite Execute Maneuver telling you to use the rear guides.

But the instructions for undocking the Phantom is specific about using the rear guides. If this was done for a reason, like to prevent the double K turn bomb toss, then that's it. If it was done because the Phantom was pointing that way,then there's a chance for an errata.

I think people are reading too much into that phrase.  By that logic no ship could ever do a specialized maneuver as the Execute Maneuver under Activation states to use the rear guides when executing a maneuver.  The Bearing rules show where there are exceptions to the rear guide use.  No K-Turn for the Phantom would have to be an exception to the rules.  At this point a FAQ is all that will put an end to the debate.  To me the undocking is poorly worded if they were aiming at preventing a double k-turn.

I don't have the info in front of me, but if Dej2 quoted it correctly this is the undocking procedure which is a specialized maneuver. In this case I think it overrides the normal movement rules. Don't get me wrong, I would love to have the X-wing equivalent of a "pitch and toss" nuke but in this case I think FFG may have shut us down.

[WWHSD 9,273]

 

 

 

Following up on my post above, under Bearing in the rules reference the K-Turn instructs you to use the front guides instead of the rear guides. This allows you to do the K-Turn despite Execute Maneuver telling you to use the rear guides.

But the instructions for undocking the Phantom is specific about using the rear guides. If this was done for a reason, like to prevent the double K turn bomb toss, then that's it. If it was done because the Phantom was pointing that way,then there's a chance for an errata.

I think people are reading too much into that phrase.  By that logic no ship could ever do a specialized maneuver as the Execute Maneuver under Activation states to use the rear guides when executing a maneuver.  The Bearing rules show where there are exceptions to the rear guide use.  No K-Turn for the Phantom would have to be an exception to the rules.  At this point a FAQ is all that will put an end to the debate.  To me the undocking is poorly worded if they were aiming at preventing a double k-turn.

I don't have the info in front of me, but if Dej2 quoted it correctly this is the undocking procedure which is a specialized maneuver. In this case I think it overrides the normal movement rules. Don't get me wrong, I would love to have the X-wing equivalent of a "pitch and toss" nuke but in this case I think FFG may have shut us down.

 

 

 

The procedure for "Execute a Maneuver" uses the same wording. The specific instructions for maneuvers like the K-Turn override these more general instructions. The K-Turn directions even refer to the fact that you are normally instructed to use the read guides.  The undocking instructions take the place of the normal procedure for executing a maneuver and should also be overridden by maneuver specific instructions.

 

 

RRG, pg. 4:

"a. Move Ship: Slide the maneuver template between the front guides of the ship’s base so that it is flush against the base. Then pick up the ship and place it at the opposite end of the template, sliding the rear guides of the base into the opposite end of the template. "

 

 

RRG, pg 6 (bolding by me):

"Koiogran Turn: The Koiogran turn () bearing advances a ship straight forward, changing its facing by 180º. To achieve this facing, the player slides the ship’s front guides into the end of the maneuver template instead of the rear guides."

Edited March 24, 2016 by WWHSD

[WWHSD 9,273]

 To me the undocking is poorly worded if they were aiming at preventing a double k-turn.

 

It's also the same wording used in the instructions included with the Gozanti and the Hound's Tooth, which were both released before the Ghost and neither of which can perform K-Turns. 

[McLaine 58]

If the K-Turn, Sloop, and Troll were forbidden on Deploying, there would be an EXPLICIT rule saying so.

You can pick ANY maneuver on the deploying ship's dial (Deploying Rules).

Deploying rules state placing rear guides of ship onto the end of the move template. This is exactly the same way it is phrased in the basic maneuver section of learn to play.

Deploying rules do not explicitly forbid the K-Turn, Sloop, or Troll. The conclusion it does is because players are interpreting the passage in Deploying without considering the passages under the special maneuvers. The rules for K-turn, Sloop, and Troll explain how your rotate your ship INSTEAD of placing the rear guides against the move template.
 

Edited March 24, 2016 by McLaine

[Slugrage 5,011]

I'm on the side of doing it. To me, it reads that the standard maneuver rules are trumped by the K-Turn special rule. So it would be the same for the deploy & K-Turn.

[hardbap 147]

Hopefully I hear back from FFG soon. I could go either way on it actually. Before playing a game at an event I would discuss it with the TO and would be okay with whichever side he ruled on.

 

My argument for why you can't do it is why didn't the undocking instructions just say "follow the Execute Maneuver rules" or "refer to pp 4-5 in the RRG for moving"? Wouldn't that have been clearer? Just follow the existing rules for the maneuver and this isn't an issue. 

 

[EDIT] But let me be absolutely clear: I want to do a k-turn with the Phantom when undocking!

Edited March 24, 2016 by hardbap

[WWHSD 9,273]

 

My argument for why you can't do it is why didn't the undocking instructions just say "follow the Execute Maneuver rules" or "refer to pp 4-5 in the RRG for moving"? Wouldn't that have been clearer? Just follow the existing rules for the maneuver and this isn't an issue. 

 

 

It's impossible to follow the Execute Maneuver procedure with a ship that is not already in play, that's probably the biggest reason that they didn't what you suggest. The steps for Execute Maneuver have you place your template in the front pegs of the ship that is going to be moving. 

 

Instead of releasing a long list of exceptions to make for executing maneuver when you are undocking, FFG replaced the entire thing and made the changes in-line. 

Edited March 24, 2016 by WWHSD

[StephenEsven 632]

 

 To me the undocking is poorly worded if they were aiming at preventing a double k-turn.

 

It's also the same wording used in the instructions included with the Gozanti and the Hound's Tooth, which were both released before the Ghost and neither of which can perform K-Turns. 

 

Where do you get from that they can't perform k-turns?

[WWHSD 9,273]

 

 

 To me the undocking is poorly worded if they were aiming at preventing a double k-turn.

 

It's also the same wording used in the instructions included with the Gozanti and the Hound's Tooth, which were both released before the Ghost and neither of which can perform K-Turns. 

 

Where do you get from that they can't perform k-turns?

 

 

Their dials? 

 

 

 

The chances of FFG writing the undocking instructions the way that they did to specificly to prevent both the ship that is deploying and the one that is being deployed from both doing K-Turns is pretty low seeing as the first two ships with the mechanic are incapable of performing K-Turns.

Edited March 24, 2016 by WWHSD

[StephenEsven 632]

Oh, I was thinking about the undocking ships. 

[hardbap 147]

 

 

 

Hello Michael,

 

In response to your rules question:

 Rules Question:
Can the Phantom perform a K-turn when undocking? The undocking rules specify "rear guides of the docked ship" which leads me to believe that it cannot do a K-turn when undocking. Thanks! 3. Take the docked ship and place it at the opposite end of the template, sliding the rear guides of the docked ship into the opposite end of the template. This counts as a maneuver. If this maneuver causes the docked ship to overlap an obstacle or another ship, it follows the normal rules for overlapping. If this causes a situation in which the docked ship cannot be placed in the play area, the docked ship is destroyed.

 

The use of the language of “rear guides” is the same language used when explaining how to execute a maneuver. Some maneuvers (such as Koiogran turns) break this rule and use the front guides instead. A deploying ship can choose any maneuver on their dial.

 

Thanks for playing,

Frank Brooks

Associate Creative Content Developer

Fantasy Flight Games

Edited March 24, 2016 by hardbap

[Slugrage 5,011]

And logical extension of the rules prevails. This time.

[Dej2 40]

 

 

 

 

Hello Michael,

 

In response to your rules question:

 Rules Question:

Can the Phantom perform a K-turn when undocking? The undocking rules specify "rear guides of the docked ship" which leads me to believe that it cannot do a K-turn when undocking. Thanks! 3. Take the docked ship and place it at the opposite end of the template, sliding the rear guides of the docked ship into the opposite end of the template. This counts as a maneuver. If this maneuver causes the docked ship to overlap an obstacle or another ship, it follows the normal rules for overlapping. If this causes a situation in which the docked ship cannot be placed in the play area, the docked ship is destroyed.

 

The use of the language of “rear guides” is the same language used when explaining how to execute a maneuver. Some maneuvers (such as Koiogran turns) break this rule and use the front guides instead. A deploying ship can choose any maneuver on their dial.

 

Thanks for playing,

Frank Brooks

Associate Creative Content Developer

Fantasy Flight Games

 

Thank you for clearing that up... yay we can do K-turns!

[ObiWonka 7,081]

You guys know it's the same as the Nashtah Pup rules, right? And I've seen that K-turn numerous times with no one questioning it. The rules some people decide to nit-pick... 

 

[Parravon 5,217]

You guys know it's the same as the Nashtah Pup rules, right? And I've seen that K-turn numerous times with no one questioning it. The rules some people decide to nit-pick... 

Somebody needs to quickly send Frank another email asking if the Nashtah Pup can do a K-turn when it deploys.

[DutchBassie 11]

Yes the can