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Holmelund

A new video of suspect Dial handling

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to tell ppl not to discuss cheating, not to post videos and so on, you're being incredibly patronizing. I myself think I'll pay a little more attention when I play against strangers. I don't mind losing but I do mind losing to a cheater

I don't think he's saying cheating shouldn't be discussed, he's cautioning against overreaction and suspicion creating a toxic play environment.

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I'm not sure what pisses me off more, the dial switch or the streaming site labeling their faction as "Imperium."

Well that is what they are playing, what's your problem with the caption?

 

 

They are playing Imperial not Imperium. Imperium is Warhammer 40K human empire.

 

It's German...

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Sticking your fingers in your ears and covering your eyes never solved a problem, ever.

Torches and Pitchforks aren't known for productive solutions either.

 

No one has torches or pitchforks but these things merit discussion. Telling people not to discuss stuff is just ridiculous.

Snide jokes about executing people is enough to constitute metaphorical Torches and Pitchforks in my book. Look, I know people are being facetious, but that sort of ugliness still taints the game. Especially when it's happening when tempers are heated.

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I'm not sure what pisses me off more, the dial switch or the streaming site labeling their faction as "Imperium."

Well that is what they are playing, what's your problem with the caption?

 

 

They are playing Imperial not Imperium. Imperium is Warhammer 40K human empire.

 

It's German...

 

 

Okay.

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Sticking your fingers in your ears and covering your eyes never solved a problem, ever.

Torches and Pitchforks aren't known for productive solutions either.
 

No one has torches or pitchforks but these things merit discussion. Telling people not to discuss stuff is just ridiculous.

Snide jokes about executing people is enough to constitute metaphorical Torches and Pitchforks in my book. Look, I know people are being facetious, but that sort of ugliness still taints the game. Especially when it's happening when tempers are heated.

 

 

Okay fine then yes clearly some people are going overboard. BUT, this type of stuff still needs to be discussed. In a rational manner.

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First of all it's Latin ... 

I don't want to go too deeply into an argument about the nature of loan words and whether a word can still be considered to be part of it's language of origin, once it's viewed inside the context of a different language, but it should suffice to say that this does not mean it's not a German word. And considering that this is a German video and Imperium is a perfectly fine German word that can be found in any decent dictionary, I highly doubt that the guy writing the captions was just randomly penning them in Latin.

Besides 'empire' has been localized in Germany as 'Imperium' since at least the year 1980, 7 years before 40k was even released.

Edited by Bankinus

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There's not a whole left to say, really. Organized Play is investigating things. Aside from reminding people not to look at their dials during the activation phase without letting their opponent know, what else is there to say since everything is out of our hands now?

Well, there's always more to say about things on the internet, but I don't foresee anything else productive arising from it.

First of all it's Latin ...

I don't want to go too deeply into an argument about the nature of loan words and whether a word can still be considered to be part of it's language of origin, once it's viewed inside the context of a different language, but it should suffice to say that this does not mean it's not a German word. And considering that this is a German video and Imperium is a perfectly fine German word that can be found in any decent dictionary, I highly doubt that the guy writing the captions was just randomly penning them in Latin.

Besides 'empire' has been localized in Germany as 'Imperium' since the 1980, 7 years before 40k was even released.

I think Nicko was just pointing out that the word is a lot older than 40k. Edited by Squark

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@Squark
Thanks - that was exactly my point! :) 

 

And to be honest: the 40k "Imperium" is a reference of the Warhammer "Imperium", which itself is somekind of fantasy HRRDN (Heiliges Römisches Reich Deutscher Nation - medival name of first german empire ).

 

Edited by Nickos13

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Is it healthy or helpful to post these kind of one-off instances of cheating on public boards? They are rare. They are dealt with locally. All posting them here does is prime a bunch of players to actively look for instances of cheating. Then they post what they think was cheating(it wasn't, in a couple of recent cases) and the feedback reinforces itself. It makes the game worse for all of us.

Just report it to your TO's and keep it off the net.

No, people need to realize that there are some legitimate cheaters that play this game and to be on guard.

Accusations of cheating are only poison for fun if you're one of those militant casuals that isn't actually cheating, but gets salty even though he has nothing to hide.

I've been playing this game for over a year, most games in tournaments. I've been damage deck checked exactly zero times. If I was a cheater, I could take out a handful of cards and I would never get caught. Can't accuse anyone of cheating, that's poisonous to fun, right?

Accusations about loaded dice are ridiculous, however all the accused player has to do is swap dice.

Also, even if he never changed his dial, he still cheated. You have to ask/notify your opponent that you're doing that beforehand.

This is how much of a stupid hugbox this place is, we can't even discuss real instances of cheating.

As usual, you miss the point being made and add assumptions about the poster that are not justified by the post. This has nothing to do with it being a "hugbox". It has to do with how often people are publicly and falsely accused of cheating.

 

 

There is nothing false about this. Your whole don't say anything you are just making things worse attitude isn't gonna help things. If people cheat it needs to be discussed to put an end to it. Sticking your fingers in your ears and covering your eyes never solved a problem, ever.

The majority of threads about cheating are false accusations. None of the threads about cheating solves cheating, even in the case of the individual instances being presented.

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Sticking your fingers in your ears and covering your eyes never solved a problem, ever.

Torches and Pitchforks aren't known for productive solutions either.

 

No one has torches or pitchforks but these things merit discussion. Telling people not to discuss stuff is just ridiculous.

Have you ever been on the receiving end of a large online community's hate?

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Oh, boy.

 

My translations (not a professional BTW) of the german posts linked above. 

 

 

ComStar:  The tournament is a topic of discussion at FFG ( i.e. the forums)

 

Wakasa: Evening,  I noticed that myself that evening as I watched the videos of my games.  I sent a note to Kettch that night that the situation looks really bad.  I am not sure what exactly happened, but I think that maybe I turned the dial "cleanly."

 

Kettch:  I can confirm that. Jan had already written to me the morning after, pointed out the issue and apologized for touching the dial while I was away.  You should give him credit at this point that he turned down making the cut in favor of Leon Boeck (they were tied even down to tie breakers).

 

ComStar: Maybe someone (involved) should post at FFG before the Americans talk themselves into a rage again.

 

DasMaddin: too late, ComStar.

It sounds, from that translation, like he realized he got caught on camera and dropped out to avoid further punishment down the line.

 

 

No.  He tied for 4th place.  He dropped from the cut and went home.  That evening he was watching the videos of his games and saw what he had done.  He sent a note to his opponent pointing out the problem and apologizing for it.  Opponent accepted apology. 

 

Sometime after all that the video started being discussed here and that led to the posts on the german forum.

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Is it healthy or helpful to post these kind of one-off instances of cheating on public boards? They are rare. They are dealt with locally. All posting them here does is prime a bunch of players to actively look for instances of cheating. Then they post what they think was cheating(it wasn't, in a couple of recent cases) and the feedback reinforces itself. It makes the game worse for all of us.

Just report it to your TO's and keep it off the net.

No, people need to realize that there are some legitimate cheaters that play this game and to be on guard.

Accusations of cheating are only poison for fun if you're one of those militant casuals that isn't actually cheating, but gets salty even though he has nothing to hide.

I've been playing this game for over a year, most games in tournaments. I've been damage deck checked exactly zero times. If I was a cheater, I could take out a handful of cards and I would never get caught. Can't accuse anyone of cheating, that's poisonous to fun, right?

Accusations about loaded dice are ridiculous, however all the accused player has to do is swap dice.

Also, even if he never changed his dial, he still cheated. You have to ask/notify your opponent that you're doing that beforehand.

This is how much of a stupid hugbox this place is, we can't even discuss real instances of cheating.

As usual, you miss the point being made and add assumptions about the poster that are not justified by the post. This has nothing to do with it being a "hugbox". It has to do with how often people are publicly and falsely accused of cheating.
 

 

There is nothing false about this. Your whole don't say anything you are just making things worse attitude isn't gonna help things. If people cheat it needs to be discussed to put an end to it. Sticking your fingers in your ears and covering your eyes never solved a problem, ever.

The majority of threads about cheating are false accusations. None of the threads about cheating solves cheating, even in the case of the individual instances being presented.

This thread made me realize that I should be asking to check my own dials, something me and my local group do not do.

So yes, it has stopped cheating.

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... Given the, "guilty until proven innocent," mentality that tends to surround cheating, People have very good reason to be afraid of accusations of cheating.

Granted, I'm a Discworld fan, so I can't hear the phrase, "the innocent have nothing to fear," without cringing, so I might be overreacting to your tone, Paragoomba.

 

Terry Pratchett teaches us everything we need to know about life in those novels.

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And you are incredibly naive thinking we shouldn't discuss it.

And the 3-4 other X-wing board users who have recently had their reputations tarnished by completely-false accusations?

F***-em?

 

 

TasteTheRainbow, I appreciate what you're trying to say, however I fail to see the benefits of a gag order on these issues. The speculation in this topic is based upon the video evidence (which is quite damning) of the player manipulating a dial in his opponent's absence. Regardless of the player's intentions, his actions are in direct violation of the rules.

 

I don't think anybody wants to start a witch hunt, but cheating is a hot topic and will evoke an emotional response from other players. Most people on these forums ignore the overly dramatic posters anyway, so what's left is a rational discussion on the state of play.

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ComStar: Maybe someone (involved) should post at FFG before the Americans talk themselves into a rage again.

 

DasMaddin: too late, ComStar.

 

 :-(

 

Is it healthy or helpful to post these kind of one-off instances of cheating on public boards? They are rare. They are dealt with locally. All posting them here does is prime a bunch of players to actively look for instances of cheating. Then they post what they think was cheating(it wasn't, in a couple of recent cases) and the feedback reinforces itself. It makes the game worse for all of us.

Just report it to your TO's and keep it off the net.

No, people need to realize that there are some legitimate cheaters that play this game and to be on guard.

Accusations of cheating are only poison for fun if you're one of those militant casuals that isn't actually cheating, but gets salty even though he has nothing to hide.

I've been playing this game for over a year, most games in tournaments. I've been damage deck checked exactly zero times. If I was a cheater, I could take out a handful of cards and I would never get caught. Can't accuse anyone of cheating, that's poisonous to fun, right?

Accusations about loaded dice are ridiculous, however all the accused player has to do is swap dice.

Also, even if he never changed his dial, he still cheated. You have to ask/notify your opponent that you're doing that beforehand.

This is how much of a stupid hugbox this place is, we can't even discuss real instances of cheating.

As usual, you miss the point being made and add assumptions about the poster that are not justified by the post. This has nothing to do with it being a "hugbox". It has to do with how often people are publicly and falsely accused of cheating.
 

 

There is nothing false about this. Your whole don't say anything you are just making things worse attitude isn't gonna help things. If people cheat it needs to be discussed to put an end to it. Sticking your fingers in your ears and covering your eyes never solved a problem, ever.

 

Take a deep breath, I think. As usual, ParaGoomba Slayer is gleefully dumping kerosene on a smoldering fire, but there's no reason everyone else has to chase him into the bonfire.

 

TTR isn't saying there's no such problem as cheating and we should ignore it; he's saying that it's at best ill-advisedly premature to trash someone's reputation on the basis of a video presented without context in a language spoken by relatively few people on this board.

 

... Given the, "guilty until proven innocent," mentality that tends to surround cheating, People have very good reason to be afraid of accusations of cheating.

Granted, I'm a Discworld fan, so I can't hear the phrase, "the innocent have nothing to fear," without cringing, so I might be overreacting to your tone, Paragoomba.

 

Terry Pratchett teaches us everything we need to know about life in those novels.

I discovered his work in my late teens, and I don't think I could have asked for a better tutor in thinking about issues of power, justice, and responsibility from a rational, humanist perspective.

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As usual, you miss the point being made and add assumptions about the poster that are not justified by the post. This has nothing to do with it being a "hugbox". It has to do with how often people are publicly and falsely accused of cheating.

 

And how often is that?

Because it doesn't seem very often to me (with the exception of these two video threads popping up in relative quick succession, but that's just as likely to be a fluke as a trend)

 

The majority of threads about cheating are false accusations. None of the threads about cheating solves cheating, even in the case of the individual instances being presented.

Are they?

Because I've only seen two so far, and both had videos that lets everyone make up their own mind about the supposed cheating.

And both threads have asked "is this guy cheating" instead of accusing them by saying "this guy is cheating".

Oh and of course none of the threads about cheating solve cheating. Neither does any of the punishments for cheating. People still cheat.

 

Have you ever been on the receiving end of a large online community's hate?

I have, actually.

And it's never pleasant.

But that doesn't mean that people should shy away from posting videos where you can clearly see the guy picking up and changing the dial on camera.

It DOES mean that people shouldn't make baseless accusations without anything to back it up.

But there's a big difference between that and what's going on in this thread.

 

And the 3-4 other X-wing board users who have recently had their reputations tarnished by completely-false accusations?

F***-em?

Which ones would that be? And when did this happen?

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Ok, after my first posting I took some time to collect "evidence" and I completely changed my mind.

I wanted to be 100% sure about this, so I downloaded the video and edited it with a video-editing-software

 

- zoomed in on the dial

- slowed the speed down to 25%

- readjusted colours and brightness

 

You can see the result right here:

 

Now it's even possible to count the amount of maneuvers he skipped. So you can tell, that he changed his dial from a 1bank (which would have bumped him and cost him Vader) to a 2bank.

 

This means: Not only did he betray me in that game, but he also pitifully lied to me afterwards.

 

I hope that FFG bans this cheater forever. I never ever want to meet him on an X-Wing-game again.

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Ok, after my first posting I took some time to collect "evidence" and I completely changed my mind.

I wanted to be 100% sure about this, so I downloaded the video and edited it with a video-editing-software

 

- zoomed in on the dial

- slowed the speed down to 25%

- readjusted colours and brightness

 

You can see the result right here:

 

Now it's even possible to count the amount of maneuvers he skipped. So you can tell, that he changed his dial from a 1bank (which would have bumped him and cost him Vader) to a 2bank.

 

This means: Not only did he betray me in that game, but he also pitifully lied to me afterwards.

 

I hope that FFG bans this cheater forever. I never ever want to meet him on an X-Wing-game again.

 

That looks pretty conclusive to me.

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