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Holmelund

A new video of suspect Dial handling

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I re-watchec his tie advanced does a 2 bank then gets stress. Stay on target.

This is the danger of a whitch hunt. I might be wrong but I think many people owe that man an apology. (Someone correct me if I am wrong)

It is entirely possible that he was not cheating.

Should he have picked up the dial? Absolutely not.

Did he actually change the maneuver? We don't know. It looks pretty damning, but that's not the same as proof.

Maybe he was just looking at different options and switched it back to what it was. Maybe the opponent was off-camera watching and this was an SoT situation. Maybe he was looking at what SoT options he had while waiting.

But in either case he's about to have a really s****y month of gaming.

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I re-watchec his tie advanced does a 2 bank then gets stress. Stay on target.

This is the danger of a whitch hunt. I might be wrong but I think many people owe that man an apology. (Someone correct me if I am wrong)

 

Could also be because of the "loose stabilzer"-damage card.

 

 

 

Who puts "stay on target" on Vader?

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Is it healthy or helpful to post these kind of one-off instances of cheating on public boards? They are rare. They are dealt with locally. All posting them here does is prime a bunch of players to actively look for instances of cheating. Then they post what they think was cheating(it wasn't, in a couple of recent cases) and the feedback reinforces itself. It makes the game worse for all of us.

Just report it to your TO's and keep it off the net.

Which ones wasn't cheating?

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Is it healthy or helpful to post these kind of one-off instances of cheating on public boards? They are rare. They are dealt with locally. All posting them here does is prime a bunch of players to actively look for instances of cheating. Then they post what they think was cheating(it wasn't, in a couple of recent cases) and the feedback reinforces itself. It makes the game worse for all of us.

Just report it to your TO's and keep it off the net.

Which ones wasn't cheating?

There were two threads about loaded dice and one about collusion recently posted on Reddit that were just blatant nonsense. But the majority of comments were like "ooh those bastards".

I'm not going to link to them and give them any more attention than they already have.

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Is it healthy or helpful to post these kind of one-off instances of cheating on public boards? They are rare. They are dealt with locally. All posting them here does is prime a bunch of players to actively look for instances of cheating. Then they post what they think was cheating(it wasn't, in a couple of recent cases) and the feedback reinforces itself. It makes the game worse for all of us.

Just report it to your TO's and keep it off the net.

Which ones wasn't cheating?

There were two threads about loaded dice and one about collusion recently posted on Reddit that were just blatant nonsense. But the majority of comments were like "ooh those bastards".

I'm not going to link to them and give them any more attention than they already have.

 

 

Oh, reddit... well reddit is full of bs anyway, so that's never going away. There'll be threads about cheating there even if it was impossible to cheat in the game.

 

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Is it healthy or helpful to post these kind of one-off instances of cheating on public boards? They are rare. They are dealt with locally. All posting them here does is prime a bunch of players to actively look for instances of cheating. Then they post what they think was cheating(it wasn't, in a couple of recent cases) and the feedback reinforces itself. It makes the game worse for all of us.

Just report it to your TO's and keep it off the net.

Which ones wasn't cheating?
There were two threads about loaded dice and one about collusion recently posted on Reddit that were just blatant nonsense. But the majority of comments were like "ooh those bastards".

I'm not going to link to them and give them any more attention than they already have.

Oh, reddit... well reddit is full of bs anyway, so that's never going away. There'll be threads about cheating there even if it was impossible to cheat in the game.

Until that public fiasco in Florida and that other video of dial manipulationthey were very rare. Now I have seen 5 in a week and 3 were definitely bogus accusations.

Edit: The Reddit version of this thread makes that 4/5 that were verifiably bogus.

Edited by TasteTheRainbow

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Hi there,

This issue is already discussed in the German X-wing community and the situation has been handled by both players involved.

No cheating, so please leave the torches where they are.

Btw: I'm neither one of those players, just read both threads in both communities.

Thanks for the info.

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While helpful to point out how dial manipulation can happen I hope people do not take these to show that the percentage of such abuses is on the rise.  Mistakes, and cheating, happen and with more people playing they will probably become more common but that's just because everything is becoming more common.  Of course if you double the number of X-Wing players and see a 50% increase in total cheaters there are would be more cheaters but a smaller percentage of cheating.

 

We should all remember that these bad incidents we see are usually NOT reflective on an entire system but instead represent a single point in time.  I mean a cop could go 20 years without anything bad happening but if it has one bad outcome that happens to get caught on camera it doesn't matter anymore.

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That's not 'appears' to change the dial, that is flat out cheating! You can see him change the dial clear as crystal!

Ugh! I love this game but this stuff has to come to an end. You are on camera!

See above update from local. It wasn't cheating. You should mention this on nova as it is a growing problem. False accusations of cheating hurt all of us.

Edit: locals changed their mind and decided it was cheating. Still could have been false. Still doesn't belong on forums really.

Edited by TasteTheRainbow

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Hi there,

This issue is already discussed in the German X-wing community and the situation has been handled by both players involved.

No cheating, so please leave the torches where they are.

Btw: I'm neither one of those players, just read both threads in both communities.

 

Wait... so there's video footage of the guy lifting his dial up, turning it around, moving the dial to another move and not moving it back, and this is somehow ruled as not cheating?

Despite it being a violation of the "don't touch your dials at all" rule, you can actually see him moving the dial in the video.

So who is making this ruling?

Or is it really "handled by both players involved", which could very well mean that the guy being cheated on simply doesn't care that the other guy cheated.

Which is fine, I guess, but it also doesn't mean the guy didn't cheat... just that his opponent doesn't care.

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That's not 'appears' to change the dial, that is flat out cheating!  You can see him change the dial clear as crystal!  

Ugh!  I love this game but this stuff has to come to an end.  You are on camera!

See above update from local. It wasn't cheating. You should mention this on nova as it is a growing problem. False accusations of cheating hurt all of us.

 

 

You should watch the video, mate.

He clearly lifts the dial, turns it over so you can see the maneuver in the camera, then moves it to another maneuver.

Just because that guy wrote that "they players have worked it out", doesn't mean the guy didn't cheat.

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Given recent posts, I will apologize for jumping to a conclusion. Also, OddballE8, the answers you seek may be in the link posted by Tie Storm.

 

The more I think about it, the more I'm starting to change my mind and side with TasteTheRainbow in whether exposing people like this is for the best. My initial reaction was, "This jerk's actions should be displayed for all to see!!". I hate cheating and when people cheat, I tend to want to expose them as punishment. However, does that really solve anything? FFG and local officials do look at the forums but there are better ways of reporting this directly. Also, it alienates the perpetrator. If anyone intentionally cheated and is exposed like this, he/she is not going to learn his lesson and we would have lost the opportunity to try and reason with that person. Should cheating continue after delegating, then yes, measures should be taken. Nevertheless, we need to remember a couple of things.

 

1. We are a community that has thrived, and hopefully will continue to thrive, on camaraderie. We shouldn't condemn people and treat them like crap because they did wrong. Have those in authority confirm and, if need be, punish the action and have us the community try to show them a better way. If they still don't mend their behavior, then we should lower our interactions with them without making them feel inferior to us.

 

2. This is a game. Is it worth dishing out all that hostility towards a person?

 

I retract my previous post by once again issuing out an apology and by putting into practice what I have said.

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Hey, as I said, I'm not involved in this, just read the 2 threads and wanted to share information.

If you still want to spend some time and thoughts on this issue, just go ahead.... :)

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Well, I used google translate on that page (my german is a bit rusty), and these two posts are what I got out of it:

"Evening, 
that I do not even also noticed on the evening when I looked at the videos of my games. 
Then, I then Kettch night posted a message that it looks really bad in the situtation. 
I'm not sure what is exactly but was I think that I might have "clean" turned the dial. Greetings Wakasa"

and then after that, this one:

"I can confirm that. January has me written in the morning after the event, pointed out the scene and it excused the wheel to have touched, while I was gone. One should make allowances for him at this point that he on at the tournament in favor of Leon Böck has waived the cut (the two were even after the secondary points tied at No. 4/5)"

I still have no clue as to why this wasn't considered a case of cheating.
He picks up the dial, turns it around and looks at it, then changes the maneuver.
Is there special circumstances for this to be allowed? He talks about having "clean" turned the dial, which I take to mean moving it slightly to show the move better, but that's not what you see in the video.
 

Edited by OddballE8

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Hey, as I said, I'm not involved in this, just read the 2 threads and wanted to share information.

If you still want to spend some time and thoughts on this issue, just go ahead.... :)

easier said than done when you're not a native german speaker.

Sure, google translate does a half-decent job, but alot is still lost in those translations.

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That's not 'appears' to change the dial, that is flat out cheating!  You can see him change the dial clear as crystal!  

Ugh!  I love this game but this stuff has to come to an end.  You are on camera!

See above update from local. It wasn't cheating. You should mention this on nova as it is a growing problem. False accusations of cheating hurt all of us.

 

You should watch the video, mate.

He clearly lifts the dial, turns it over so you can see the maneuver in the camera, then moves it to another maneuver.

Just because that guy wrote that "they players have worked it out", doesn't mean the guy didn't cheat.

I did. I can't tell what is happening there for sure. You do know there are multiple abilities that let you change your dial, right?

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That's not 'appears' to change the dial, that is flat out cheating!  You can see him change the dial clear as crystal!  

Ugh!  I love this game but this stuff has to come to an end.  You are on camera!  

 

How about let's not cheat, camera or no camera - how about that?

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That's not 'appears' to change the dial, that is flat out cheating!  You can see him change the dial clear as crystal!  

Ugh!  I love this game but this stuff has to come to an end.  You are on camera!

See above update from local. It wasn't cheating. You should mention this on nova as it is a growing problem. False accusations of cheating hurt all of us.
 

You should watch the video, mate.

He clearly lifts the dial, turns it over so you can see the maneuver in the camera, then moves it to another maneuver.

Just because that guy wrote that "they players have worked it out", doesn't mean the guy didn't cheat.

I did. I can't tell what is happening there for sure. You do know there are multiple abilities that let you change your dial, right?

 

Sure, but he does all this when the opponent is away from the table.

Surely, even if you have an ability that lets you change the dial, you are obliged to wait until the opponent is back at the table, since all (at least to my recollection) of those abilities have limits that are dependant on your previously chosen maneuver.

Speaking of, is there any ruling on making your moves while the opponent is not at the table, in the first place?

ps. and you can't tell me he isn't moving the dial, that's clear as day. If you can't see that, you might want to get your eyes checked. 

I'm being serious here, if you can't see it, you shoud check your eyes. Because it's clear as day (are you not looking at full-screen maby?)

Edited by OddballE8

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That's not 'appears' to change the dial, that is flat out cheating!  You can see him change the dial clear as crystal!  

Ugh!  I love this game but this stuff has to come to an end.  You are on camera!

See above update from local. It wasn't cheating. You should mention this on nova as it is a growing problem. False accusations of cheating hurt all of us.
 

You should watch the video, mate.

He clearly lifts the dial, turns it over so you can see the maneuver in the camera, then moves it to another maneuver.

Just because that guy wrote that "they players have worked it out", doesn't mean the guy didn't cheat.

I did. I can't tell what is happening there for sure. You do know there are multiple abilities that let you change your dial, right?

Sure, but he does all this when the opponent is away from the table.

Surely, even if you have an ability that lets you change the dial, you are obliged to wait until the opponent is back at the table, since all (at least to my recollection) of those abilities have limits that are dependant on your previously chosen maneuver.

Speaking of, is there any ruling on making your moves while the opponent is not at the table, in the first place?

ps. and you can't tell me he isn't moving the dial, that's clear as day. If you can't see that, you might want to get your eyes checked. 

I'm being serious here, if you can't see it, you shoud check your eyes. Because it's clear as day (are you not looking at full-screen maby?)

Not in-screen is not the same as away.

You have no idea what the dial said before or after.

You have no idea if there was some earlier infraction and this was the compromise.

You don't know what builds were in play.

You flat out do not know what happened.

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Hi guys,

 

my name is Thomas from Frankfurt and I'm the player to the right in the video.

I also happened to be the judge at that tournament (this was the reason, why I had to leave the table).

 

Please notice that the other player himself sent me an E-Mail the day after the tournament. He brought my attention to that specific scene and apologized for touching his maneuver-dial while I had left the table. He told me, that it was stuck between two maneuvers, so he corrected that.

 

I have met him several times and got to know him as a fair and friendly player - so I tend to believe him.

 

You should also know, that after that game (which was the last round of swiss) he was tied 4th and 5th place with another player (they both had 3 Wins and a 535 MoV). In that situation he voluntarily stepped back and offered the seat in the cut to the other player.

 

So please keep that in mind before you judge him just by watching that video.

 

Best regards

Thomas

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I feel, we all should listen more to the advice of Cat Stevens:

 

 

"It's not time to make a (dial) change
Just relax, take it easy
You're still young, that's your fault
There's so much you have to know
Find a girl, settle down
If you want, you can marry
Look at me, I am old
But I'm happy

 

I was once like you are now
And I know that it's not easy
To be calm when you've found
Something going on

But take your time, think a lot
Why, think of everything you've got for you
Will still be here tomorrow
But your dreams may not"

 

Shalallalaaaaa

Edited by Yodas Mum

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That's not 'appears' to change the dial, that is flat out cheating!  You can see him change the dial clear as crystal!  

Ugh!  I love this game but this stuff has to come to an end.  You are on camera!

See above update from local. It wasn't cheating. You should mention this on nova as it is a growing problem. False accusations of cheating hurt all of us.
 

You should watch the video, mate.

He clearly lifts the dial, turns it over so you can see the maneuver in the camera, then moves it to another maneuver.

Just because that guy wrote that "they players have worked it out", doesn't mean the guy didn't cheat.

I did. I can't tell what is happening there for sure. You do know there are multiple abilities that let you change your dial, right?
Sure, but he does all this when the opponent is away from the table.

Surely, even if you have an ability that lets you change the dial, you are obliged to wait until the opponent is back at the table, since all (at least to my recollection) of those abilities have limits that are dependant on your previously chosen maneuver.

Speaking of, is there any ruling on making your moves while the opponent is not at the table, in the first place?

ps. and you can't tell me he isn't moving the dial, that's clear as day. If you can't see that, you might want to get your eyes checked. 

I'm being serious here, if you can't see it, you shoud check your eyes. Because it's clear as day (are you not looking at full-screen maby?)

Not in-screen is not the same as away.

You have no idea what the dial said before or after.

You have no idea if there was some earlier infraction and this was the compromise.

You don't know what builds were in play.

You flat out do not know what happened.

 

Of course I don't.

And neither do you.

But what I DO know is that he picks up the dial, turns it over to look at it, moves the dial to another maneuver, all before showing the maneuver to his opponent.

Now, let's say you and I are playing.

You're standing there, right infront of me. I do this exact thing. I pick up my dial, turn it over and look at it, move the dial to another maneuver, and then show it to you.

Is there ANY situation that would let me do this?

Any at all?

I'm genuinely asking here, because I can't think of any situation that would let me do this.

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