U-Boats, or How to beat them without declairing World War III

[emmjay 319]

First off, lets look at the two main U - Boat builds.

 

Build 1

Contracted Scout

Extra Munitions

Plasma Torpedoes

R4 Agromech

Deadeye

Guidance Chips

33 points

*You can upgrade 1 to a proton torpedo if you want to run 3 of these ships in a build

 

Build 2

Contracted Scout

Extra Munitions

Plasma Torpedoes

R4 Agromech

Deadeye

Guidance Chips

Recon Specialist

36 points

*note you can upgrade to Proton Torpedoes for +1 points each

 

Both function pretty much the same, however there is a huge difference between Build 1 and Build 2.  With build 1 you are able to field 3 of them for a total of 98 points.  With the focus token available each ship can deal a maximum of 4 damage each, and having the focus token converted to a target lock with the R4 and a guidance chip to change another die only adds to the increased chance of having 4 hits vs your opponent.  That makes it a maximum of 12 damage (without direct hit crits) that can be dealt in 1 round of shooting.

 

Build 2 is a little bit more involved.  First off, at 36 points each you can only field 2 of them.  That does leave 28 points remaining to add some good support or blockers.  I personally run it with a cluster missile/lone wolf 25 point build N'dru for an additional 8 potential damage alpha strike.  However, for 3 more points you get that extra focus token.  Why is that so good?  Well, first of all if you have to spend a focus for defense you still have one available for offense.  Also, they are really good if you have both for offense.  Let me explain.  You attack with your torpedo spending a focus token, thus gaining you a target lock.  You roll your dice.  You now have a focus, target lock, and Guidance chips to try to get 4 hits/crits.  It is very easy to do with this setup and once both torps have been fired having 2 focus tokens in the late game is also rather nice.

 

What makes the U - Boat build so great is that it is the first ship with a EPT, Salvaged Astromech slot, and Crew Slot.  Having 2 torpedo slots only adds icing to the cake.  So, great ship but very unique.  Personally, during the playtesting FFG should have realized the power of 2 torpedo slots (with Extra Munitions) and not had 2 on this ship.

 

So, how do you beat these builds?  Well there are several options.

 

1.  Obstacles

 

Most U - Boat drivers will setup in the bottom right of the board to take advantage of all the green maneuvers.  Take big obstacles and block their way.  Keep them close to each other.  Dirty the playfield up as much as possible so they can't fly in formation and prevent their squad take an easy route to your ships.  Yes, this means you have to do some decent planning ahead of time.  But, by keeping this in mind you hurt the U - boat player in their direct standard play.

 

2.  Arc Dodgers

 

Remember, while the U - Boats do have 2 attack turrets, their best firepower is out of their front arc.  If you can dodge this arc, well, they can't hit you with their torpedoes in the first place.  It sounds simple and stupid, but if its stupid and it works, it isn't.....

 

3.  Token Prevention and Denial

 

Wes, Omega Leader, Carnor, Palob, Dark Curse, these are some of the ships that your opponent doesn't want to see against them.  By denying and/or stripping tokens from them to just straight out preventing them from firing their torpedoes can be a significant blow to their list.  Yes, this does make those ships a priority target, but while they are in the game they are extremely deadly to this type of build.  However, stripping focus tokens is easy.  Pulling the target lock is a bit harder....

 

4.  Stress

 

Along the same lines, get them stressed and keep them stressed.  Again, by denying them actions or the ability to use their focus tokens they can't attack as effectively.  Stress is even better because it also prevents the use of a target lock.

 

5.  Biggs Darklighter

 

Hey, when all else fails give him another target to shoot at so he can't hit your main force.

 

6.  Range 1

 

Remember, their torpedoes only work at range 2-3.  Get into range 1 so they can't hit you.

 

7.  Out Damage them

 

Throw enough damage back at them to kill them first so they can't bring their full firepower to bear.

 

8.  Agility and Health

 

Take ships that have high agility or high health.  Make them spend all 3 shots just for the CHANCE to kill your ship.  For example, it is much better to take the Falcon than a Z-95.  Shuttles are better than TIE Fighters.  Y wings are great.

 

 

In Conclusion

 

Yes, U - Boat builds are big, mean, and scary.  Yes, they can pump out a TON of damage.  However, there are many ways to beat them.  This will change up the meta much like TLT did from the previous wave.  Truthfully, that is a good thing.  A stale meta kills games.  Look and see what the 4/4 build did for Imperial Assault and the drastic changes FFG had to make just to make the skirmish game viable again.

 

The sky is not falling people so don't panic!

 

 

[ArbitraryNerd 1,009]

Great write up, I think a lot of people will benefit from reading this!

[Wildhorn 453]

You forgot a 3rd build, the most potent one:
 

Contracted Scout (25)

Adaptability (0) <--- to get PS2 to make opponent PS2 to bump and trigger APL.

Intelligence Agent (1) <--- to know where these aces are going to know where to barrel roll to Feedback Array or APL.

Feedback Array (2)

Anti-Pursuit Lasers (2)

 

Contracted Scout (25)

Deadeye (1)

Extra Munitions (2)

Proton Torpedoes (4)

Boba Fett (1) <--- very useful against Ghost to remove the turret.

R4 Agromech (2)

Guidance Chips (0)

 

Contracted Scout (25)

Deadeye (1)

Extra Munitions (2)

Proton Torpedoes (4)

R4 Agromech (2)

Guidance Chips (0)

 

Total: 99

 

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

 

 

The Bumpmaster can be built depending of your taste, but usually it is better to have one of the scout as a bumpmaster to be able to deal with aces and to prevent opponent to get in R1 of your other Scouts.

Edited March 22, 2016 by Wildhorn

[buddyfett 190]

6 TIE crack swarms eat them up if you keep tokened up for defence, engage them piecemeal and arc dodge.

Nom nom nom.

Edited March 22, 2016 by buddyfett

[Wildhorn 453]

6 TIE crack swarms eat them up if you keep tokened up for defence, engage them piecemeal and arc dodge.

Nom nom nom.

I will have to test this 6 Crack Swarm some day. I only hear good about it.

But I am not quite sur how they would deal with the build I posted above. Alpha strike you would bump into the bumpmaster for sure with 1 or 2 TIE, so no actions and maybe take a damage from APL then the torpedoes deal 4 hits, so these TIE need to roll at least 2-3 natural evade to survive and the bumpmaster can Feedback Array a survivor. And if you keep your tokens for defense, it means you roll 2 red dice without modification. You won't kill a J3K on alpha strike then. So its gonna be the whole build vs 4 TIE.

[heychadwick 11,354]

 

[Fuego Estelar 401]

In the next tournament I will field 5 Ties (Howlrunner, 4xObsidians) and 2 skill 1 TIE F/O. To hell With Meta!!!!

[downsizedsandals 55]

If arc dodgers are giving you a problem, try Intelligence Agent.

[ficklegreendice 34,359]

Funny thing is, of the 3 games I've played v them the one I won had the simplest approach.

 

Game 1 was a wash because the opponent was somehow able to one-shot a bomber (two crits, one direct hit, one major explosion which obviously rolled a hit; unlikely result unless you're Fickle)

 

Game 2 had me trying to pull off an ill conceived flank; thus unable to bring any concentrated fire to bear. Lost badly

 

Game 3, I just set up two black cracks, redline and the Inquisitor opposite the scouts and jousted them

 

 

 

ended up with what looked like a very inefficient trade, one scout for Redline, but what ended up being the game winner

 

Having deployed on his right corner (trying to leverage the left side of the JM dial), my opponent soon ran into the problem of large bases: massive surface area and displacement. This made a mess of his maneuvering

 

in the few messy turns that followed, I was allowed very favorable shots

 

 

with the Inq basically being stuck on the scouts, and later at range 3, he could only get one torpedo off on my "ace" (knocked off the shields). He was forced to expend his remaining torpedo on one of the Tie Fighters

 

With Inq being Inq (ie, not a jouster) I had to start fanangling him while leaving a now very injured (one hull) scout in the hands of the remaining Blacksquadron

 

 

said black squadron predictably rolls two blanks, gets hit back with 3 hits and then rolls 3 blanks. And people wonder why I chose this forum handle

 

fortunately, the Inq wasn't so incompetent (PTL is essential; full mods are essential)

 

 

 

 

which left just a torpless scout against the 2 health Inq. After a lot of grinding away, it was evident that 2-dice PWT isn't terribly capable of punching through focus/evade/thrusters even at range 1; even in arc

 

 

 

 

sometimes the simplest solutions are the most effective

[kellyj 191]

Yep, simple. Stresshog can tie up a scout all day long by dumping as much stress as possible.

Tactician on a hitter (B-Wing and the like) will either force him to take no actions or to make a very predictable green move.

Action deniers (Wes, et al) can also tie a scout up all game by restricting it to its PWT.

Once you've taken the actions/ordnance out of the equation these guys die pretty fast.

[Hrathen 1,463]

8.  Agility and Health

 

Take ships that have high agility or high health.  Make them spend all 3 shots just for the CHANCE to kill your ship.  For example, it is much better to take the Falcon than a Z-95.  Shuttles are better than TIE Fighters.  Y wings are great.

 

 

 

Are you saying High Health instead of High Agility.  TIEs have great agility, Y's have terrible agility.

 

Actually I think Falcons would be a bad ship to take against 3 torpedo spaming u-boats.  Sure it has a lot of health in and of itself but it can expect to be the target of 6 torps.

 

I think what you meant to say was hull/shields are of more value against fewer high dice atacks, just as more agility and less hull is better against lots of few dice attacks. 

Y-wings > HWKs

B-Wings > X-wings

YT-1300 > YT-2500

Decimator > Shuttle

[skotothalamos 3,626]

 

Game 3, I just set up two black cracks, redline and the Inquisitor opposite the scouts and jousted them

 

 

 

 

 

That's not Black Squadron!

[Beard 155]

8.  Agility and Health

 

Take ships that have high agility or high health.  Make them spend all 3 shots just for the CHANCE to kill your ship.  For example, it is much better to take the Falcon than a Z-95.  Shuttles are better than TIE Fighters.  Y wings are great.

 

Are you saying High Health instead of High Agility.  TIEs have great agility, Y's have terrible agility.

 

Actually I think Falcons would be a bad ship to take against 3 torpedo spaming u-boats.  Sure it has a lot of health in and of itself but it can expect to be the target of 6 torps.

 

I think what you meant to say was hull/shields are of more value against fewer high dice atacks, just as more agility and less hull is better against lots of few dice attacks. 

Y-wings > HWKs

B-Wings > X-wings

YT-1300 > YT-2500

Decimator > Shuttle

Not sure what you're confused about. I'm pretty sure he said what he meant. Ships with high agility or high health. Meaning evade the hits from the alpha strike or soak them up.

[Rodafowa 2,483]

Yep, simple. Stresshog can tie up a scout all day long by dumping as much stress as possible.

Well, yeah. But you might want to find 2 points to bump it up to Grey Squadron. A PS2 hog will probably be dead before it fires once and will almost definitely be dead before it fires twice.

[ficklegreendice 34,359]

 

 

Game 3, I just set up two black cracks, redline and the Inquisitor opposite the scouts and jousted them

 

 

 

 

 

That's not Black Squadron!

 

 

it is, I just forgot the bases

 

between a 31 point inquisitor and a 38 point redline, there's no room for proper Omegas

[buddyfett 190]

6 TIE crack swarms eat them up if you keep tokened up for defence, engage them piecemeal and arc dodge.

Nom nom nom.

I will have to test this 6 Crack Swarm some day. I only hear good about it.

But I am not quite sur how they would deal with the build I posted above. Alpha strike you would bump into the bumpmaster for sure with 1 or 2 TIE, so no actions and maybe take a damage from APL then the torpedoes deal 4 hits, so these TIE need to roll at least 2-3 natural evade to survive and the bumpmaster can Feedback Array a survivor. And if you keep your tokens for defense, it means you roll 2 red dice without modification. You won't kill a J3K on alpha strike then. So its gonna be the whole build vs 4 TIE.

Well your blacks are at PS 4 and if you engage at range 2 you have no fear of bumping. 6 TIEs with Howlrunner is 11 damage with crack shot to seal the deal.

It's all about the first engagement. You have got to keep it too 1-2 of the uboats. With a focus or evade each Proton should only do 2 damage, one hit one crit, or worst case two crits. So fingers crossed you only lose one tie and then eat one jm5k before it gets its second shot off.

Then stay on the inside and out of arc.

Hopefully you killed one before it shot, and then the second one is severely crippled and can't shoot torpedoes at range one.

Your 3-4 remaining TIEs should be able to take out the last jm5k.

Edited March 22, 2016 by buddyfett

[Gungo 191]

Funny thing is, of the 3 games I've played v them the one I won had the simplest approach.

 

Game 1 was a wash because the opponent was somehow able to one-shot a bomber (two crits, one direct hit, one major explosion which obviously rolled a hit; unlikely result unless you're Fickle)

 

Game 2 had me trying to pull off an ill conceived flank; thus unable to bring any concentrated fire to bear. Lost badly

 

Game 3, I just set up two black cracks, redline and the Inquisitor opposite the scouts and jousted them

 

 

 

ended up with what looked like a very inefficient trade, one scout for Redline, but what ended up being the game winner

 

Having deployed on his right corner (trying to leverage the left side of the JM dial), my opponent soon ran into the problem of large bases: massive surface area and displacement. This made a mess of his maneuvering

 

in the few messy turns that followed, I was allowed very favorable shots

 

 

with the Inq basically being stuck on the scouts, and later at range 3, he could only get one torpedo off on my "ace" (knocked off the shields). He was forced to expend his remaining torpedo on one of the Tie Fighters

 

With Inq being Inq (ie, not a jouster) I had to start fanangling him while leaving a now very injured (one hull) scout in the hands of the remaining Blacksquadron

 

 

said black squadron predictably rolls two blanks, gets hit back with 3 hits and then rolls 3 blanks. And people wonder why I chose this forum handle

 

fortunately, the Inq wasn't so incompetent (PTL is essential; full mods are essential)

 

 

 

 

which left just a torpless scout against the 2 health Inq. After a lot of grinding away, it was evident that 2-dice PWT isn't terribly capable of punching through focus/evade/thrusters even at range 1; even in arc

 

 

 

 

sometimes the simplest solutions are the most effective

Sounds like you just outflew your opponent and he wasted all his torpedoes on lesser targets. But you are correct the only way to really beat the 3x U-boat is to outlast his 6x torpedoes and survive a 2 atk turret without rolling blanks.

[ObiWonka 7,040]

Great thread, nicely laid out points. Time for the meta to evolve or die, I suppose.

 

@Gungo: Please to quote such massive pieces without spoiler tags.

[shadowswalker 261]

I have not had the pleasure? of facing this list yet, but I am sure it will be at Adepticon next week.  Thanks for the write-up so I can get a better idea of ways to defeat it with my Imperials.

[Gungo 191]

Great thread, nicely laid out points. Time for the meta to evolve or die, I suppose.

 

@Gungo: Please to quote such massive pieces without spoiler tags.

How do you do a spoiler tag?

[PanchoX1 1,288]

I would think that having Carnor Jax or Turr Phennir would be big assets in an imperial list flying against these u-boats.

Edited March 23, 2016 by PanchoX1

[Archangelspiv 1,938]

With B wings being very similar to the JMK, do you think you will see more rebel versions of this list?

 

Nera Dantels (35)

FCS

Proton Torps

Extra Munitions

Guidance Gimps.

Deadeye

 

Dagger Squadron Pilot x2 (32)

FCS

Proton Torps

Extra Munitions

Guidance Gimps.

 

Brings in a grand total of 99 points.

 

You have higher PS than the scouts so maybe you get to kill one with all the missile love. Smaller bases for maneuverability and Nera has a turreted missile launcher for extra lols. I havent flown the B wing before, but I thought I would have a tinker and see what people thought.

[NakedDex 2,609]

So I ran the boats in few games tonight for the first time, against a Ghost list which my opponent was also running for the first time. He had all but about twenty-odd points used, and was pondering a wingman. We'd chatted about how to keep the Ghost alive effectively, and I'd suggested Biggs with R2-D6, Determination, and IA, or R4-D6 and IA. Cheap, but possibly quite effective.

 

Boy was it effective... He flew Biggs closer than I'd imagined he would, realising there was no point in Biggs being at R3 if he was there to tank ordnance, so on top of soaking three torp shots per game, he also put out a surprising amount of damage. Biggs, when flown aggressively into R1-2 is an utter pain in the ass to deal with.

Now, in all games, Biggs died. The problem was that, when aggressively flown (not something you'd associate with Biggs), he simply didn't die quickly enough. It allowed Biggs and the Ghost to drop some horrific focus fire on a scout each turn. Two of the games were modified wins, just based on him pulling at least two ships per game to half health by the time Biggs died (I'm aware I could probably have done more to avoid this in positioning, but it was my first run with them).

I won all three games, but each took a bit of work. Biggs is definitely a solid option against this.

[Wildhorn 453]

With B wings being very similar to the JMK, do you think you will see more rebel versions of this list?

 

Nera Dantels (35)

FCS

Proton Torps

Extra Munitions

Guidance Gimps.

Deadeye

 

Dagger Squadron Pilot x2 (32)

FCS

Proton Torps

Extra Munitions

Guidance Gimps.

 

Brings in a grand total of 99 points.

 

You have higher PS than the scouts so maybe you get to kill one with all the missile love. Smaller bases for maneuverability and Nera has a turreted missile launcher for extra lols. I havent flown the B wing before, but I thought I would have a tinker and see what people thought.

Not the same because the U-Boats get the TL on their first attack by spending the focus with Deadeye, while the B-Wing would need to have already attacked their target. So you can't alpha strike with almost guarantee (95%) 4 hits like the U-Boats do, so the U-Boats will have destroyed 1 of the B-Wing before they could shoot.

Also, because B-Wing are slow, and higher PS in that build, they most likely gonna bump into the bumpmaster, so no action at all.

[Wildhorn 453]

So I ran the boats in few games tonight for the first time, against a Ghost list which my opponent was also running for the first time. He had all but about twenty-odd points used, and was pondering a wingman. We'd chatted about how to keep the Ghost alive effectively, and I'd suggested Biggs with R2-D6, Determination, and IA, or R4-D6 and IA. Cheap, but possibly quite effective.

 

Boy was it effective... He flew Biggs closer than I'd imagined he would, realising there was no point in Biggs being at R3 if he was there to tank ordnance, so on top of soaking three torp shots per game, he also put out a surprising amount of damage. Biggs, when flown aggressively into R1-2 is an utter pain in the ass to deal with.

Now, in all games, Biggs died. The problem was that, when aggressively flown (not something you'd associate with Biggs), he simply didn't die quickly enough. It allowed Biggs and the Ghost to drop some horrific focus fire on a scout each turn. Two of the games were modified wins, just based on him pulling at least two ships per game to half health by the time Biggs died (I'm aware I could probably have done more to avoid this in positioning, but it was my first run with them).

I won all three games, but each took a bit of work. Biggs is definitely a solid option against this.

Double Ghost (Autoblaster or FCS) + Biggs (R4-D6 + IA) = a serious counter to 3 Scouts and it is also effective against a tons of lists.