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Mikael Hasselstein

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How many mission cards do we know for each side? Each deck has 25 cards. How many are hidden fleet or incite rebellion?

I took the learn to play scenario because the learn to play is only omitting one or two rules, and I would assume it follows the actual set up rules, just predetermining the random systems and unit placements for you. Until we know which systems have Imperial logos and which systems have Rebel logos in the probe deck, we can't simulate the standard set up.

 

29 a side, actually. With 10 project cards for the Empire.

 

2 Copies of Incite, 1 of Hidden Fleet iirc.

Well 4 of those are starting missions and are always in your hand. Still, even if there are 2 copies of Hidden Fleet, doesn't seem like a reliable way to move. More like a one time surprise. We will see if it is enough to feel effective.

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Forgot to mention: there are also the starting Action Cards (the two drawn before the first turn) that can influence Rebels building ships. One confirmed is 3P0 -  who allows for an auto-success on a diplo mission just once (Make an Alliance with a blue circle and/or blue square), and another confirmed is having Mon Mothma do a Temp alliance where she can just build using any planets build mechanics as a once off anyway.

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How many mission cards do we know for each side? Each deck has 25 cards. How many are hidden fleet or incite rebellion?

I took the learn to play scenario because the learn to play is only omitting one or two rules, and I would assume it follows the actual set up rules, just predetermining the random systems and unit placements for you. Until we know which systems have Imperial logos and which systems have Rebel logos in the probe deck, we can't simulate the standard set up.

 

29 a side, actually. With 10 project cards for the Empire.

 

2 Copies of Incite, 1 of Hidden Fleet iirc.

Well 4 of those are starting missions and are always in your hand. Still, even if there are 2 copies of Hidden Fleet, doesn't seem like a reliable way to move. More like a one time surprise. We will see if it is enough to feel effective.

 

 

It isn't a reliable way to move a large portion of your forces, but it does allow you to move stuff past a strong front line.  Again, your strat was drop a stormtrooper on every planet and move a wall of defense forward across the map.

These hidden movement missions (and who knows whats in the action cards) allows the rebels to jump past such a defensive line.  That defensive line is pretty difficult to maintain anyways due to the layout of the map.  And small military forces can be a big problem even for larger fleets/armies.

The rebels aren't supposed to take the Imps on one to one, but they have enough military power to be a thorn in the Imp's side.  Leave something lightly defended, and the Rebels are sure to take advantage of it.

Sabatoge missions, missions, and blockades give the rebels lots of ways to disrupt the Imperial supply lines.  Those disruptions slow down the juggernaut.  Any attempts to counter those missions, or double back to retake planets that the rebels have secured slows down the galaxy wide onslaught.

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How many mission cards do we know for each side? Each deck has 25 cards. How many are hidden fleet or incite rebellion?

I took the learn to play scenario because the learn to play is only omitting one or two rules, and I would assume it follows the actual set up rules, just predetermining the random systems and unit placements for you. Until we know which systems have Imperial logos and which systems have Rebel logos in the probe deck, we can't simulate the standard set up.

 

29 a side, actually. With 10 project cards for the Empire.

 

2 Copies of Incite, 1 of Hidden Fleet iirc.

Well 4 of those are starting missions and are always in your hand. Still, even if there are 2 copies of Hidden Fleet, doesn't seem like a reliable way to move. More like a one time surprise. We will see if it is enough to feel effective.

 

It isn't a reliable way to move a large portion of your forces, but it does allow you to move stuff past a strong front line.  Again, your strat was drop a stormtrooper on every planet and move a wall of defense forward across the map.

These hidden movement missions (and who knows whats in the action cards) allows the rebels to jump past such a defensive line.  That defensive line is pretty difficult to maintain anyways due to the layout of the map.  And small military forces can be a big problem even for larger fleets/armies.

The rebels aren't supposed to take the Imps on one to one, but they have enough military power to be a thorn in the Imp's side.  Leave something lightly defended, and the Rebels are sure to take advantage of it.

Sabatoge missions, missions, and blockades give the rebels lots of ways to disrupt the Imperial supply lines.  Those disruptions slow down the juggernaut.  Any attempts to counter those missions, or double back to retake planets that the rebels have secured slows down the galaxy wide onslaught.

That wasn't my "strategy" per se, but why wouldn't you do it?

Ground units:

-Subjugate a planet, which allows you to deploy there as well as build using the left most icon (which is the same as having loyalty in all those systems with only 1 build icon).

-Force the Rebel player to reveal if the base is there or not.

-If the Rebels try to move the base, they cannot move it to a system with an Imperial unit.

As to the wall of defense, you only have to worry about the Rebels being in a single system to start. It would seem pretty easy to keep a superior force at least within threatening distance. You know the Rebels likely won't be moving aggressively. The board is laid out in a way, and movement is so limited, you don't need to spread the bulk of fleet out to create a "wall". Just moving across the galaxy, there is no way to speed around someone that is trying to intercept you once you are close.

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How many mission cards do we know for each side? Each deck has 25 cards. How many are hidden fleet or incite rebellion?

I took the learn to play scenario because the learn to play is only omitting one or two rules, and I would assume it follows the actual set up rules, just predetermining the random systems and unit placements for you. Until we know which systems have Imperial logos and which systems have Rebel logos in the probe deck, we can't simulate the standard set up.

 

29 a side, actually. With 10 project cards for the Empire.

 

2 Copies of Incite, 1 of Hidden Fleet iirc.

Well 4 of those are starting missions and are always in your hand. Still, even if there are 2 copies of Hidden Fleet, doesn't seem like a reliable way to move. More like a one time surprise. We will see if it is enough to feel effective.

 

It isn't a reliable way to move a large portion of your forces, but it does allow you to move stuff past a strong front line.  Again, your strat was drop a stormtrooper on every planet and move a wall of defense forward across the map.

These hidden movement missions (and who knows whats in the action cards) allows the rebels to jump past such a defensive line.  That defensive line is pretty difficult to maintain anyways due to the layout of the map.  And small military forces can be a big problem even for larger fleets/armies.

The rebels aren't supposed to take the Imps on one to one, but they have enough military power to be a thorn in the Imp's side.  Leave something lightly defended, and the Rebels are sure to take advantage of it.

Sabatoge missions, missions, and blockades give the rebels lots of ways to disrupt the Imperial supply lines.  Those disruptions slow down the juggernaut.  Any attempts to counter those missions, or double back to retake planets that the rebels have secured slows down the galaxy wide onslaught.

That wasn't my "strategy" per se, but why wouldn't you do it?

Ground units:

-Subjugate a planet, which allows you to deploy there as well as build using the left most icon (which is the same as having loyalty in all those systems with only 1 build icon).

-Force the Rebel player to reveal if the base is there or not.

-If the Rebels try to move the base, they cannot move it to a system with an Imperial unit.

As to the wall of defense, you only have to worry about the Rebels being in a single system to start. It would seem pretty easy to keep a superior force at least within threatening distance. You know the Rebels likely won't be moving aggressively. The board is laid out in a way, and movement is so limited, you don't need to spread the bulk of fleet out to create a "wall". Just moving across the galaxy, there is no way to speed around someone that is trying to intercept you once you are close.

 

Rowdy, I think that is the point.  You don't have enough forces to leave a sizable force on each planet you subjugate.  Contrariwise, if you leave a small force on a planet, the Rebels jump in using one of their special cards and takes the planet back from you.  Admittedly, it might work as a way of finding the hidden base, but, I think it would leave you to thinly placed to face off against any concentrations of rebel forces.  Just my 0.67 cents.

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How many mission cards do we know for each side? Each deck has 25 cards. How many are hidden fleet or incite rebellion?

I took the learn to play scenario because the learn to play is only omitting one or two rules, and I would assume it follows the actual set up rules, just predetermining the random systems and unit placements for you. Until we know which systems have Imperial logos and which systems have Rebel logos in the probe deck, we can't simulate the standard set up.

 

29 a side, actually. With 10 project cards for the Empire.

 

2 Copies of Incite, 1 of Hidden Fleet iirc.

Well 4 of those are starting missions and are always in your hand. Still, even if there are 2 copies of Hidden Fleet, doesn't seem like a reliable way to move. More like a one time surprise. We will see if it is enough to feel effective.

 

It isn't a reliable way to move a large portion of your forces, but it does allow you to move stuff past a strong front line.  Again, your strat was drop a stormtrooper on every planet and move a wall of defense forward across the map.

These hidden movement missions (and who knows whats in the action cards) allows the rebels to jump past such a defensive line.  That defensive line is pretty difficult to maintain anyways due to the layout of the map.  And small military forces can be a big problem even for larger fleets/armies.

The rebels aren't supposed to take the Imps on one to one, but they have enough military power to be a thorn in the Imp's side.  Leave something lightly defended, and the Rebels are sure to take advantage of it.

Sabatoge missions, missions, and blockades give the rebels lots of ways to disrupt the Imperial supply lines.  Those disruptions slow down the juggernaut.  Any attempts to counter those missions, or double back to retake planets that the rebels have secured slows down the galaxy wide onslaught.

That wasn't my "strategy" per se, but why wouldn't you do it?

Ground units:

-Subjugate a planet, which allows you to deploy there as well as build using the left most icon (which is the same as having loyalty in all those systems with only 1 build icon).

-Force the Rebel player to reveal if the base is there or not.

-If the Rebels try to move the base, they cannot move it to a system with an Imperial unit.

As to the wall of defense, you only have to worry about the Rebels being in a single system to start. It would seem pretty easy to keep a superior force at least within threatening distance. You know the Rebels likely won't be moving aggressively. The board is laid out in a way, and movement is so limited, you don't need to spread the bulk of fleet out to create a "wall". Just moving across the galaxy, there is no way to speed around someone that is trying to intercept you once you are close.

Rowdy, I think that is the point.  You don't have enough forces to leave a sizable force on each planet you subjugate.  Contrariwise, if you leave a small force on a planet, the Rebels jump in using one of their special cards and takes the planet back from you.  Admittedly, it might work as a way of finding the hidden base, but, I think it would leave you to thinly placed to face off against any concentrations of rebel forces.  Just my 0.67 cents.

But the Rebels only have a few of those "jump anywhere" cards. You will only see any given mission card once, unless there is a way to accelerate mission drawing. Honestly, if the Imperial player has 10 systems loyal/subjugated, losing 1 isn't really going to bother him, especially when the Rebel player most likely cannot reinforce it, and would need to devote another leader to another mission to make it loyal.

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But, once you are established behind this line that is advancing across the board, A), you can deploy troops there AND you could start to expand your influence as the Imp fleets move away from your new power base.

 

edited for clarity

Edited by Hersh

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But, once you are established behind this line that is advancing across the board, A), you can deploy troops there AND you could start to expand your influence as the Imp fleets move away from your new power base.

 

edited for clarity

Well the Imps are going to have 3 fleets capable of destroying what the Rebels start with. You can only deploy 2 units there. You will probably be surrounded, meaning the Imperials can deploy 4-8 units within striking distance of you. Your ability to hold that position will depend greatly on what is on the build queue. Everything just seems so restrictive and specific.

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Rowdy, is it me, or do you and I enjoy dueling here?  That's it, I am buying you a rapier for Christmas....   Anyway, yes the Imps start with enough to field 3 solid fleets, BUT, if they do the drop one unit on every planet trick, those fleets will get broken up pretty fast to transport ground units all over the place.  If you happen to grab a planet that dumps stuff onto the build que at step 1, then you don't have long to wait until you get reinforcements.

 

On the flip side, as the game is out soon, we could just wait and see if this tactic works or not.  

 

Lastly, when is the release date?  I have forgotten and can't find it anywhere

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My take is that the Subjugation ability is very powerful and the Imperials wouldn't have any chance of winning without it.

 

Now if you can just use all your leaders to just activate systems (clearly you will have some free leaders to do some missions), subjugate everything and still win is something that I am not sure of.

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Lastly, when is the release date?  I have forgotten and can't find it anywhere

March 31st for most markets.

 

Cool, thanx...  Crap!  That means I have less than a week to find the money.  With wife, daughter, dad b-days all in the next 2 weeks.    NOOOOOO!!!!!!!!

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But, once you are established behind this line that is advancing across the board, A), you can deploy troops there AND you could start to expand your influence as the Imp fleets move away from your new power base.

 

edited for clarity

Well the Imps are going to have 3 fleets capable of destroying what the Rebels start with. You can only deploy 2 units there. You will probably be surrounded, meaning the Imperials can deploy 4-8 units within striking distance of you. Your ability to hold that position will depend greatly on what is on the build queue. Everything just seems so restrictive and specific.

The problem is still the same as it's been sincere the start of this thread. You're giving rebel forces easy targets to earn victory points, advancing them toward their win scenario, while doing little to advance your own. As they win those minor conflicts, you're now faced with even fewer turns to destroy their base. Even if you identify it rapidly, your forces are scattered, seeding stormtroopers.

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But, once you are established behind this line that is advancing across the board, A), you can deploy troops there AND you could start to expand your influence as the Imp fleets move away from your new power base.

 

edited for clarity

Well the Imps are going to have 3 fleets capable of destroying what the Rebels start with. You can only deploy 2 units there. You will probably be surrounded, meaning the Imperials can deploy 4-8 units within striking distance of you. Your ability to hold that position will depend greatly on what is on the build queue. Everything just seems so restrictive and specific.

The problem is still the same as it's been sincere the start of this thread. You're giving rebel forces easy targets to earn victory points, advancing them toward their win scenario, while doing little to advance your own. As they win those minor conflicts, you're now faced with even fewer turns to destroy their base. Even if you identify it rapidly, your forces are scattered, seeding stormtroopers.

I'm not sure what you mean by "doing little to advance your own."

Putting ground forces on a planet eliminates it as an option for the Rebel base, or it is the Rebel base and you find it. Obviously you only target systems you haven't drawn via probe cards. Feel free to leave TIE Fighters there instead of Stormtroopers if you already have the probe card. By round 8 or so you should have most of the Galaxy covered, and that's only by activating 2 systems or so a round. Additionally, by leaving troops or TIEs there, you prevent the Rebels from attempting to move the base there.

I don't think it will be very easy for the Rebels to score 5 reputation. Not all of their objective cards will involve defeating troops.

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I'm not sure what you mean by "doing little to advance your own."

What I mean is that, as the Imperial player, you don't win by merely locating the rebel base or preventing it from relocating. You win by destroying it, and with your forces scattered creating garrisons, you may be at a disadvantage to perform this crucial act when a show of force is needed.

Also, I don't think it's at all unlikely for the rebels to secure 5 sympathy points in 8 rounds when you're leaving lots of barely defended garrisons to destroy. Even if you take it back immediately, it doesn't undo their gain.

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I'm not sure what you mean by "doing little to advance your own."

Also, I don't think it's at all unlikely for the rebels to secure 5 sympathy points in 8 rounds when you're leaving lots of barely defended garrisons to destroy. Even if you take it back immediately, it doesn't undo their gain.

 

 

Exactly my point above.

 

Further, the Imperials simply can't lock the Rebels out of the shipyards turn 1. You only have 4 leaders to Move, Block the inevitable 'Create Alliance' (and this has to be done with your biggest piece, Palpatine which imo is a waste), and Rule by Fear. It simply doesn't work like that.

 

I think a viable tactic for the rebels is to create alliance Ord Mantell straight away (blue circle, orange circle) and then wait and see what the imperial player does. If he moves his coruscant fleet, something like an incite rebellion or hidden fleet well net you 2 points. If not, then keep pumping those valuable airspeeders/corvettes.

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So the Rebels score 1 reputation by destroying 3 health worth of ground units in a combat they initiated. It is a one time use. It is the only objective that scores reputation by taking out ground units directly. 1 stormtrooper being killed won't even trigger that objective.

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I'm not sure what you mean by "doing little to advance your own."

Also, I don't think it's at all unlikely for the rebels to secure 5 sympathy points in 8 rounds when you're leaving lots of barely defended garrisons to destroy. Even if you take it back immediately, it doesn't undo their gain.

 

Exactly my point above.

 

Further, the Imperials simply can't lock the Rebels out of the shipyards turn 1. You only have 4 leaders to Move, Block the inevitable 'Create Alliance' (and this has to be done with your biggest piece, Palpatine which imo is a waste), and Rule by Fear. It simply doesn't work like that.

 

I think a viable tactic for the rebels is to create alliance Ord Mantell straight away (blue circle, orange circle) and then wait and see what the imperial player does. If he moves his coruscant fleet, something like an incite rebellion or hidden fleet well net you 2 points. If not, then keep pumping those valuable airspeeders/corvettes.

Will net you 2 points after you have drawn the proper objective card, which is probably phase 2 or 3... Hopefully you've drawn Incite Rebellion or Hidden Fleet by then as well, but maybe not.

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I'm curious Rowdy.  What is the point of this topic?  You obviously aren't open minded to any counterpoint.  You also flip flop on solutions.

 

If you leave 1 unit everywhere, the rebels can easily slip by and take key planets over.

You respond with leaving more defense on key planets.

If you have X points of units destroyed, it triggers an objective.

You respond with only leaving 1 defender.

 

You suggested having a defensive wall and just taking every planet, but that would be unsustainable, and spread your forces thin.

Now you suggest just taking key planets, but that would leave points of entry for small rebel forces to slip through.

 

You've also suggested focusing just on planets that you don't have probes for, which again leaves gaps in your defense.  And then you might pull that probe card during the next turn making that planetary conquest worthless.

 

Leave a single tie on a couple planets, and watch as the rebels take a small force of x-wings and hop around wiping out your single TIE defenders, opening up all kinds of potential base relocation spots.

 

All of these pure military conquest strategies would also clearly choreograph your plans and knowledge to the rebels allowing them to counter your plans.

 

We've thrown out logical counters to each idea you've had and you just seem to ignore them, or change the plan completely while still maintaining the original plan's effects.

 

No one here is discounting the fact that the Imperial military is a threat, and should be used to secure key planets, reduce the number of hiding places, and stomp out pockets of resistance.  But the game is a careful balance and too much emphasis on a pure military tactics will leave you open to other issues.

 

Yeah, you could secure most of the major planets by turn 8 and possibly have a frail but all encompassing grasp on the galaxy.  But with a total emphasis on the probe deck, you could have the entire deck depleted by turn 8 also.  But that's in a complete vacuum where you aren't concerned about what the other player is doing during those 8 turns, and I promise you they aren't twiddling their thumbs for 8 rounds waiting for you to narrow down the location.

I guarantee you that they tested the idea of a total military conquest and carefully balanced starting forces accordingly.  An Imperial win through just stomping across the board with your army is only going to work if the Rebel player is pretty dimwitted and totally uncreative in their defense.

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I'm curious Rowdy.  What is the point of this topic?  You obviously aren't open minded to any counterpoint.  You also flip flop on solutions.

 

If you leave 1 unit everywhere, the rebels can easily slip by and take key planets over.

You respond with leaving more defense on key planets.

If you have X points of units destroyed, it triggers an objective.

You respond with only leaving 1 defender.

 

You suggested having a defensive wall and just taking every planet, but that would be unsustainable, and spread your forces thin.

Now you suggest just taking key planets, but that would leave points of entry for small rebel forces to slip through.

 

You've also suggested focusing just on planets that you don't have probes for, which again leaves gaps in your defense.  And then you might pull that probe card during the next turn making that planetary conquest worthless.

 

Leave a single TIE on a couple planets, and watch as the rebels take a small force of x-wings and hop around wiping out your single TIE defenders, opening up all kinds of potential base relocation spots.

 

All of these pure military conquest strategies would also clearly choreograph your plans and knowledge to the rebels allowing them to counter your plans.

 

We've thrown out logical counters to each idea you've had and you just seem to ignore them, or change the plan completely while still maintaining the original plan's effects.

 

No one here is discounting the fact that the Imperial military is a threat, and should be used to secure key planets, reduce the number of hiding places, and stomp out pockets of resistance.  But the game is a careful balance and too much emphasis on a pure military tactics will leave you open to other issues.

 

Yeah, you could secure most of the major planets by turn 8 and possibly have a frail but all encompassing grasp on the galaxy.  But with a total emphasis on the probe deck, you could have the entire deck depleted by turn 8 also.  But that's in a complete vacuum where you aren't concerned about what the other player is doing during those 8 turns, and I promise you they aren't twiddling their thumbs for 8 rounds waiting for you to narrow down the location.

I guarantee you that they tested the idea of a total military conquest and carefully balanced starting forces accordingly.  An Imperial win through just stomping across the board with your army is only going to work if the Rebel player is pretty dimwitted and totally uncreative in their defense.

Logical solutions from people that haven't played the game and were using perfect scenarios.

My initial point was this: subjugation is extremely powerful. That's it. It is a positive feedback loop. It is impossible to spread yourself too thin. By spreading out, you prevent the Rebels from growing and exponentially increase your ability to grow. Spreading out makes you stronger and stifles the Rebels. By the time they can hit back, losing a planet here or there doesn't matter, or you can just take them back again pretty easily.

But you don't have to believe me. Try it for yourself. The game is out today.

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It's okay Rowdy. I don't agree with your take on it (obviously) but have enjoyed the discussion here and respect you for defending your point as valiantly as you have and not throwing a fit. It's been a good intellectual exchange which is the reason we come here.

And this time, I agree with you. There's no way to know for sure without trying. And now we can. My belief is still that subjugation, while a vital and valuable element in Imperial strategy, will not prove to be a difficult one to counter not will it advance the Imperial victory condition much (and may in fact prove more advantageous to the opposition) but I feel safe in saying that NEITHER of us has the full picture or has accounted for all the variables.

Please let us know how your games go, and what you learn. I won't judge you right or wrong. The debate has been entertaining and I expect educational to many reading the forum without posting.

So no hard feelings. We're all here to enjoy the same game. Good luck and happy gaming, Rowdy.

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It's okay Rowdy. I don't agree with your take on it (obviously) but have enjoyed the discussion here and respect you for defending your point as valiantly as you have and not throwing a fit. It's been a good intellectual exchange which is the reason we come here.

And this time, I agree with you. There's no way to know for sure without trying. And now we can. My belief is still that subjugation, while a vital and valuable element in Imperial strategy, will not prove to be a difficult one to counter not will it advance the Imperial victory condition much (and may in fact prove more advantageous to the opposition) but I feel safe in saying that NEITHER of us has the full picture or has accounted for all the variables.

Please let us know how your games go, and what you learn. I won't judge you right or wrong. The debate has been entertaining and I expect educational to many reading the forum without posting.

So no hard feelings. We're all here to enjoy the same game. Good luck and happy gaming, Rowdy.

No hard feelings here. It probably seems like I'm a big negative nancy, which wasn't my intention. I'm actually demoing the game at Adepticon (a minis heavy gaming convention near Chicago, IL) for FFG this weekend as part of the Flight Crew. FFG is here officially running their Hoth Open for X-Wing, as well as some other events.

You can even see me talk to Team Covenant about the game when they post the video tonight or tomorrow. Ill be sure to link it here when it is up. I enjoy the game, despite a few frustrations in my first several games.

Edited by rowdyoctopus

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