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Mikael Hasselstein

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Seems powerful that ground units in a system not only instantly subjugate a system, but reveal whether or not the Rebel base is there, as well as allowing the Imperial player to build and deploy there.

But the imperial player not only has to find the base. He has to destroy it. Spreading your army thin enough to canvas the map means your attack force will likely be too small to be effective before the rebels relocate. Also, ground units need to be transported. Army may help you find the base but your best chance of winning is with the death star.

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Seems powerful that ground units in a system not only instantly subjugate a system, but reveal whether or not the Rebel base is there, as well as allowing the Imperial player to build and deploy there.

But the imperial player not only has to find the base. He has to destroy it. Spreading your army thin enough to canvas the map means your attack force will likely be too small to be effective before the rebels relocate. Also, ground units need to be transported. Army may help you find the base but your best chance of winning is with the death star.

Leaving a storm trooper behind seems simple enough. You will be swimming in them eventually, it seems since you still get to build them from subjugated systems.

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Seems powerful that ground units in a system not only instantly subjugate a system, but reveal whether or not the Rebel base is there, as well as allowing the Imperial player to build and deploy there.

But the imperial player not only has to find the base. He has to destroy it. Spreading your army thin enough to canvas the map means your attack force will likely be too small to be effective before the rebels relocate. Also, ground units need to be transported. Army may help you find the base but your best chance of winning is with the death star.

Leaving a storm trooper behind seems simple enough. You will be swimming in them eventually, it seems since you still get to build them from subjugated systems.

But you have to transport them. Which means either a Star Destroyer or Gonzati to move them and a Leader to create the movement to begin with. I seriously doubt you'll have enough Leader actions to spend them on laying Stormtroopers about the galaxy.

Furthermore spreading out your forces like that as the Imperials leaves you vulnerable to losing petty battles to concentrated Rebel forces which opens them up to giving up easy points to the Rebel player as a number of the Rebel objective cards relate to winning battles or destroying units.

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Seems powerful that ground units in a system not only instantly subjugate a system, but reveal whether or not the Rebel base is there, as well as allowing the Imperial player to build and deploy there.

But the imperial player not only has to find the base. He has to destroy it. Spreading your army thin enough to canvas the map means your attack force will likely be too small to be effective before the rebels relocate. Also, ground units need to be transported. Army may help you find the base but your best chance of winning is with the death star.

Leaving a storm trooper behind seems simple enough. You will be swimming in them eventually, it seems since you still get to build them from subjugated systems.

But you have to transport them. Which means either a Star Destroyer or Gonzati to move them and a Leader to create the movement to begin with. I seriously doubt you'll have enough Leader actions to spend them on laying Stormtroopers about the galaxy.

Furthermore spreading out your forces like that as the Imperials leaves you vulnerable to losing petty battles to concentrated Rebel forces which opens them up to giving up easy points to the Rebel player as a number of the Rebel objective cards relate to winning battles or destroying units.

Yeah, but Rebel forces must start bunched up together, per the set up portion. If the Imperial player keeps a strong front, are those single trooper planets really in danger? I could be missing something, of course.

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The rebels also have missions that allow them to deploy attack forces anywhere on the board.  Leave 1 stormtrooper on Coruscant and have a small army on every other nearby system, the rebels drop in 3 troopers using their mission and now they have control of Coruscant and are gaining an objective point every round you fail to retake the system.

 

Beyond that though, there really isn't much of a unified front.  You don't have enough actions or units to march a wall of fleets across the entire board subjugating planets as you go.  Any more than 3 fleets, and your forces are spread too thin to defend against the rebel forces.  Leaving small fleets or under defended planets means they can roll in and wipe out a smaller fleet with little or no losses, or win an easy ground battle.  Either of these situations could mean more objective points for the Rebels.

 

You spend 4 actions to move 4 smaller fleets around the board to subjugate 4 systems.  The rebels shut down production on a previously subjugated system, attack and destroy one of your fleets, free that system, launch a mission against a lightly defended system freeing it also, and then do a loyalty mission to turn it to there side.

You gain 3 subjugated systems (with limited production), lose a fleet/army, lose a previously subjugated system, and the rebels gained a production facility where they can build and deploy forces behind your main line.  This very well may have netted them an objective point or two also.

 

So to counter this, you now decide to keep larger garrisons, but now you have less forces to subjugate other worlds.  And you decide to keep some actions in reserve to counter rebel actions, but this means less actions to subjugate systems.

 

It all comes down to a balancing act.  A straight military conquest by the Imps is possibly the least effective strategy.  It may help locate the base quickly, and close off escape routes, but it will take a ton of actions, leave yourself vulnerable to missions, and likely provide the rebels with a lot of counter options that provide them with some good objective points.

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The rebels also have missions that allow them to deploy attack forces anywhere on the board.  Leave 1 stormtrooper on Coruscant and have a small army on every other nearby system, the rebels drop in 3 troopers using their mission and now they have control of Coruscant and are gaining an objective point every round you fail to retake the system.

 

Beyond that though, there really isn't much of a unified front.  You don't have enough actions or units to march a wall of fleets across the entire board subjugating planets as you go.  Any more than 3 fleets, and your forces are spread too thin to defend against the rebel forces.  Leaving small fleets or under defended planets means they can roll in and wipe out a smaller fleet with little or no losses, or win an easy ground battle.  Either of these situations could mean more objective points for the Rebels.

 

You spend 4 actions to move 4 smaller fleets around the board to subjugate 4 systems.  The rebels shut down production on a previously subjugated system, attack and destroy one of your fleets, free that system, launch a mission against a lightly defended system freeing it also, and then do a loyalty mission to turn it to there side.

You gain 3 subjugated systems (with limited production), lose a fleet/army, lose a previously subjugated system, and the rebels gained a production facility where they can build and deploy forces behind your main line.  This very well may have netted them an objective point or two also.

 

So to counter this, you now decide to keep larger garrisons, but now you have less forces to subjugate other worlds.  And you decide to keep some actions in reserve to counter rebel actions, but this means less actions to subjugate systems.

 

It all comes down to a balancing act.  A straight military conquest by the Imps is possibly the least effective strategy.  It may help locate the base quickly, and close off escape routes, but it will take a ton of actions, leave yourself vulnerable to missions, and likely provide the rebels with a lot of counter options that provide them with some good objective points.

The objectives are one time use. Taking Coruscant can net you that 1 objective, but holding it for any length of time is pointless, especially since it will always remain loyal to the Empire (per the rules), unless you prefer to stop them from building one stormtrooper every other round.

As the Imperial player, you essentially start with 3 fleets. 12 TIEs, 3 Star destroyers, and 3 Assault carriers separated into 4/1/1 is enough to threaten the entire starting fleet the Rebels have, and that's before considering that the Rebel player won't bunch everything together. The only advantage against utter destruction at the start of the game is that the Rebels deploy starting fleets after Imperials.

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The objectives are one time use. Taking Coruscant can net you that 1 objective, but holding it for any length of time is pointless, especially since it will always remain loyal to the Empire (per the rules), unless you prefer to stop them from building one stormtrooper every other round.

Look again. You're earning 2 victory points PER TURN that you hold Coruscant. Far from pointless.

Https://images-cdn.fantasyflightgames.com/filer_public/2d/ce/2dce27bb-3e9e-448d-8f33-017b02b1abbf/sw03_heart-of-the-empire.png

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The objectives are one time use. Taking Coruscant can net you that 1 objective, but holding it for any length of time is pointless, especially since it will always remain loyal to the Empire (per the rules), unless you prefer to stop them from building one stormtrooper every other round.

Look again. You're earning 2 victory points PER TURN that you hold Coruscant. Far from pointless.Https://images-cdn.fantasyflightgames.com/filer_public/2d/ce/2dce27bb-3e9e-448d-8f33-017b02b1abbf/sw03_heart-of-the-empire.png

Normally objectives are put back in the game box (looking at the rules reference).

Still, that's just one system the Imperials have to protect, and it is banking on the Rebel getting not only the mission to pop up, but also that objective. Probably a tier 2 or 3 objective, meaning there will be at least 6-7 leaders per side. Easy enough to swing back with something and squash that uprising. Rebels can't reinforce there either, so it's just whatever the pop up mission gives them.

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The objectives are one time use. Taking Coruscant can net you that 1 objective, but holding it for any length of time is pointless, especially since it will always remain loyal to the Empire (per the rules), unless you prefer to stop them from building one stormtrooper every other round.

Look again. You're earning 2 victory points PER TURN that you hold Coruscant. Far from pointless.Https://images-cdn.fantasyflightgames.com/filer_public/2d/ce/2dce27bb-3e9e-448d-8f33-017b02b1abbf/sw03_heart-of-the-empire.png

Normally objectives are put back in the game box (looking at the rules reference).

Still, that's just one system the Imperials have to protect, and it is banking on the Rebel getting not only the mission to pop up, but also that objective. Probably a tier 2 or 3 objective, meaning there will be at least 6-7 leaders per side. Easy enough to swing back with something and squash that uprising. Rebels can't reinforce there either, so it's just whatever the pop up mission gives them.

Agreed. It's a tough one to pull off but a game changer if you manage it. But even as tricky as it is to manage, the Imperial player can't afford to leave Coruscant vulnerable. From what I've been seeing of reviews and walkthroughs, a lot of games favor the Rebel player. Time works against the Empire.

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The rebels also have missions that allow them to deploy attack forces anywhere on the board.  Leave 1 stormtrooper on Coruscant and have a small army on every other nearby system, the rebels drop in 3 troopers using their mission and now they have control of Coruscant and are gaining an objective point every round you fail to retake the system.

 

Beyond that though, there really isn't much of a unified front.  You don't have enough actions or units to march a wall of fleets across the entire board subjugating planets as you go.  Any more than 3 fleets, and your forces are spread too thin to defend against the rebel forces.  Leaving small fleets or under defended planets means they can roll in and wipe out a smaller fleet with little or no losses, or win an easy ground battle.  Either of these situations could mean more objective points for the Rebels.

 

You spend 4 actions to move 4 smaller fleets around the board to subjugate 4 systems.  The rebels shut down production on a previously subjugated system, attack and destroy one of your fleets, free that system, launch a mission against a lightly defended system freeing it also, and then do a loyalty mission to turn it to there side.

You gain 3 subjugated systems (with limited production), lose a fleet/army, lose a previously subjugated system, and the rebels gained a production facility where they can build and deploy forces behind your main line.  This very well may have netted them an objective point or two also.

 

So to counter this, you now decide to keep larger garrisons, but now you have less forces to subjugate other worlds.  And you decide to keep some actions in reserve to counter rebel actions, but this means less actions to subjugate systems.

 

It all comes down to a balancing act.  A straight military conquest by the Imps is possibly the least effective strategy.  It may help locate the base quickly, and close off escape routes, but it will take a ton of actions, leave yourself vulnerable to missions, and likely provide the rebels with a lot of counter options that provide them with some good objective points.

The objectives are one time use. Taking Coruscant can net you that 1 objective, but holding it for any length of time is pointless, especially since it will always remain loyal to the Empire (per the rules), unless you prefer to stop them from building one stormtrooper every other round.

As the Imperial player, you essentially start with 3 fleets. 12 TIEs, 3 Star destroyers, and 3 Assault carriers separated into 4/1/1 is enough to threaten the entire starting fleet the Rebels have, and that's before considering that the Rebel player won't bunch everything together. The only advantage against utter destruction at the start of the game is that the Rebels deploy starting fleets after Imperials.

 

Despite the Coruscant objective being 2 points per round (which is huge even if you hold it for just 1 round), spreading your forces out gives you a lot of openings for problems.

A loss of a ground combat can be an objective point.

A loss of X amount of space units can be an objective point.

Having X amount of systems sabotaged can be an objective point.

 

With the proper timing (since you only add to the build que every other turn), the rebel player could be completing objectives, and stealing away key systems from you at key moments.  Hit that planet that will give you an ISD at the right turn, and suddenly the rebel player is building a Mon Cal Cruiser instead, and after a couple objective points, you don't have enough time to check every planet.

Sure, you can double back to retake that system, but that takes actions, and diverts you from your forward progress, and splits your forces up even more.  Oh and if you don't take it back, they are getting another mon cal in a couple turns.

 

But beyond that, your original plan is to occupy every planet, and keep a forward defensive wall of major military forces.  That would require far more than 3 fleets to systematically check and occupy systems while leaving single defending forces behind, while also keeping a defensive battle line drawn across the board.

 

We've also seen battles where a couple corvettes with some fighters destroyed two ISDs and a Death Star with minimal losses.  Don't forget that the rebels have missions to destroy units on your build que also.  So while you are jackbooting across the map, the rebel forces are taking over planets behind your main line (hindering your production while boosting their own), destroying your units in the build que, sabotaging other planets (shutting down their production), and gaining objective points like mad.

Pretty soon, you don't have a military force to move forward with as you no longer produce ground units.  You're also running out of time, and the rebels have been growing their military enough to oppose your thinly spread forces.

I know, I know, you could oppose all those missions, and try to fix the sabotaged systems, leave more defenses, and counter military incursions.  Yes, yes you could.  But more defenses means less forces on offense.  And fixing or opposing the sabotage missions requires leaders.  Countering those military incursions will take actions and military forces.  Opposing the other missions will also require leader actions.  All of this will mean you are hard pressed to make any forward progress with your military might.

 

Doing a straight forward military assault to crush them quickly sounds great, until you realize that it just gives them way more options to disrupt your military, score objects, and bring a quicker victory for themselves.  If you focus on any one single strategy while ignoring all other options, your enemy will be able to take advantage of the situation.

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Subjugating planets to keep the Rebel base from moving there becomes increasingly more narrow as you probe more planets. An accelerated probing of the galaxy will go a long way to not having to conquer everything, It's an "intelligence" conquest, leaving little to no room for the Rebels to maneuver. 

 

Keeping fleets a bit coreward to deal with issues will keep them central and while fleet A goes for the base, fleet B centralizes between relocation options. Having a Death Star in both fleets would be optimal. (Now watch this theory spontaneously combust in gameplay)

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Or TL;DR: The game is balanced. No strategy is uncounterable.

Well no, that remains to be seen. But what is available to us should give you every indication that what rowdyoctopus is describing isn't going to be a balance issue as even with just the rules and the game board available it is plain to see that:

A. There is no real ability to present a unified front, the layout of the map and the fact that we know there a cards that allow the Rebel player to mobilize units outside of just moving them lead us to that conclusion.

2. You don't have enough actions to seed Stormtroopers across the galaxy. To move you need a Leader, you just don't have enough Leaders available to be dropping off Stormtroopers everywhere.

3. Petty battles over nothing with very limited forces involved only benefit the Rebel player. It allows them to score points with very little risk.

So balanced or not is outside of what we have available to us, but worrying too much about Imperial troops being stationed on every planet seems pretty ill advised.

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Subjugating planets to keep the Rebel base from moving there becomes increasingly more narrow as you probe more planets. An accelerated probing of the galaxy will go a long way to not having to conquer everything, It's an "intelligence" conquest, leaving little to no room for the Rebels to maneuver. 

 

Keeping fleets a bit coreward to deal with issues will keep them central and while fleet A goes for the base, fleet B centralizes between relocation options. Having a Death Star in both fleets would be optimal. (Now watch this theory spontaneously combust in gameplay)

You have to be careful because the Intel mission that gets you more probe cards can be countered. So putting a lot of effort into the possibility of drawing cards instead of the guarantee of moving a fleet can be equally dangerous. while the empire needs to use lots of leaders to move their fleets around the rebels will probably just have their one fleet which means lots of more leaders for countering missions and doing their own missions.

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Or TL;DR: The game is balanced. No strategy is uncounterable.

Well no, that remains to be seen. But what is available to us should give you every indication that what rowdyoctopus is describing isn't going to be a balance issue as even with just the rules and the game board available it is plain to see that:

A. There is no real ability to present a unified front, the layout of the map and the fact that we know there a cards that allow the Rebel player to mobilize units outside of just moving them lead us to that conclusion.

2. You don't have enough actions to seed Stormtroopers across the galaxy. To move you need a Leader, you just don't have enough Leaders available to be dropping off Stormtroopers everywhere.

3. Petty battles over nothing with very limited forces involved only benefit the Rebel player. It allows them to score points with very little risk.

So balanced or not is outside of what we have available to us, but worrying too much about Imperial troops being stationed on every planet seems pretty ill advised.

Look at what the Rebels start with units wise. They need Toydaria, Mon Calamari, Utapau, Corellia, or Mustafar to produce anything better than a fighter shipwise. So there are only a few spots the Imperial player needs to focus on keep the Rebel Fleet sequestered.

How do you not present a unified front? Rebels start in a single system. Even if they get stuff in the build queue at the end of Rd 2, all you need is Imperial units present in a system to completely close it off as a deployment point.

Look at the learn to play scenario. The Empire starts on or adjacent to every major ship producing system except Utapau, which they can get to by the end of round 2, as well as subjugating Naboo (a Rebel system) on the way.

Let's say round 1 they subjugate Mon Calamari and Naboo. Then round 2 they are able to get to Utapau and Ord Mantell. Sure, the Rebels could have tried to make any of those systems loyal, but just the Imperial presence there immediately cuts them off from Rebel production lines. Round 2 ends.

The Rebels are adding 3 troopers, an air speeder, and 1 fighter/transport to their queue, all of it coming off immediately, though none of it can deploy to Naboo so some is going to the Rebel Base. Imperials are adding 3 TIE Fighters, 3 Assault Carriers, 1 ISD, 4 Stormtroopers, and 1 AT-ST. About half of which is probably coming off the build queue immediately and can reinforce those solo troopers, or fill out the Wandering fleets. This is of course assuming no one played loyalty missions. Let's say the Rebels went for Utapau. Well too bad, the Imperials showed up. Their subjugation marked overrides your loyalty marker. Same for Mon Calamari. Better not sabotage those, either. The only way to remove those sabotage markers is via Imperial mission, and Rebels are effected by sabotage markers just the same way as Imperials.

In this scenario, the Imperials "left behind" 4 stormtroopers, which were immediately added back to the build queue. And they only used 4 of their 9 leaders (4 in round 1, 5 in round 2).

Edited by rowdyoctopus

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Why are you asking us to look at the Learn to Play set up? It's for demoing and teaching the game, it won't be getting used past if people even use it at all. The majority of time people play this game it will not be using the fixed deployment rules of the Learn to Play, so why are you wasting your time meta gaming the demo?

Have you looked at the mission cards? Many of the Rebel missions either; cheat units on to the build queue, destroy enemy units on the build queue, deal damage to units on the board, cheat units directly on to the board, or allow movement ignoring adjacency. All of which are things that would allow the Rebel player to circumvent what may be the board position.

By contrast Imperial missions don't seem to have the same abiliy to undermine what is on the map; they center around Probes, Capturing/Interrogation, and hurrying production.

The Imperials seem to require the strong board position you worry about, because they don't have the same sort of Missions available to allow them to spontaneously appear in different areas.

If you are really worried about the Imperial players ability to fan out quickly, start off by attempting Missions in systems you know they want to move from. Either you get a free Mission or they oppose it and lock that system down for movement.

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Or TL;DR: The game is balanced. No strategy is uncounterable.

Well no, that remains to be seen. But what is available to us should give you every indication that what rowdyoctopus is describing isn't going to be a balance issue as even with just the rules and the game board available it is plain to see that:

A. There is no real ability to present a unified front, the layout of the map and the fact that we know there a cards that allow the Rebel player to mobilize units outside of just moving them lead us to that conclusion.

2. You don't have enough actions to seed Stormtroopers across the galaxy. To move you need a Leader, you just don't have enough Leaders available to be dropping off Stormtroopers everywhere.

3. Petty battles over nothing with very limited forces involved only benefit the Rebel player. It allows them to score points with very little risk.

So balanced or not is outside of what we have available to us, but worrying too much about Imperial troops being stationed on every planet seems pretty ill advised.

Look at what the Rebels start with units wise. They need Toydaria, Mon Calamari, Utapau, Corellia, or Mustafar to produce anything better than a fighter shipwise. So there are only a few spots the Imperial player needs to focus on keep the Rebel Fleet sequestered.

How do you not present a unified front? Rebels start in a single system. Even if they get stuff in the build queue at the end of Rd 2, all you need is Imperial units present in a system to completely close it off as a deployment point.

Look at the learn to play scenario. The Empire starts on or adjacent to every major ship producing system except Utapau, which they can get to by the end of round 2, as well as subjugating Naboo (a Rebel system) on the way.

Let's say round 1 they subjugate Mon Calamari and Naboo. Then round 2 they are able to get to Utapau and Ord Mantell. Sure, the Rebels could have tried to make any of those systems loyal, but just the Imperial presence there immediately cuts them off from Rebel production lines. Round 2 ends.

The Rebels are adding 3 troopers, an air speeder, and 1 fighter/transport to their queue, all of it coming off immediately, though none of it can deploy to Naboo so some is going to the Rebel Base. Imperials are adding 3 TIE Fighters, 3 Assault Carriers, 1 ISD, 4 Stormtroopers, and 1 AT-ST. About half of which is probably coming off the build queue immediately and can reinforce those solo troopers, or fill out the Wandering fleets. This is of course assuming no one played loyalty missions. Let's say the Rebels went for Utapau. Well too bad, the Imperials showed up. Their subjugation marked overrides your loyalty marker. Same for Mon Calamari. Better not sabotage those, either. The only way to remove those sabotage markers is via Imperial mission, and Rebels are effected by sabotage markers just the same way as Imperials.

In this scenario, the Imperials "left behind" 4 stormtroopers, which were immediately added back to the build queue. And they only used 4 of their 9 leaders (4 in round 1, 5 in round 2).

 

 

I've been pondering the same thing for the last couple days as well. The answers are all there if you look hard enough, but I'll add them anyway.

 

The Rebel Player probably wants to do his diplomacy missions 2 steps ahead of where the Imperials *can* be. So if there's imps at Mustafar, you go to Ryloth.

 

Yes, you start the game not being able to do much of anything in regards to fleets, but that's what missions are for. If the Imperials spread themselves out too thin? Incite Rebellion on Coruscant for that recurring 2 point trap (which any Imp player will avoid and keep a reserve fleet in the core worlds "just in case"). Mothma's "Trade Relations" mission allows you to essentially steal cruisers and have outlaw techies come to the base and build them there. Ackbars probably does the same. Hidden Fleet allows you to send missions out from the rebel base to attack barely-garrisoned systems. And then there's the balancing missions: Things like Rogue Squadron Raid allows you to destroy units off of the build queue, The imps don't have that ability and so when the rebels get something, they get it.

 

As an Imperial it looks much like a mirror image. Sure if you concentrate everything on a power-grab for the shipyards you help yourself, but then what? You've tightened the net in other places, so when it comes time to grab the base, the rebels have stocked up on snowspeeders or snubfighters, which can do the real damage to the death star and leave you in a protracted war (which the imps will lose more often than not).

 

The big Imperial trump card is the Death Star. Hell torpedo the shipyards with the Death Star if you want. But if your only goal at the start is "Go for ships" you'll find it hard when those ships have nowhere to go and noone to fight.

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How many mission cards do we know for each side? Each deck has 25 cards. How many are hidden fleet or incite rebellion?

I took the learn to play scenario because the learn to play is only omitting one or two rules, and I would assume it follows the actual set up rules, just predetermining the random systems and unit placements for you. Until we know which systems have Imperial logos and which systems have Rebel logos in the probe deck, we can't simulate the standard set up.

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How many mission cards do we know for each side? Each deck has 25 cards. How many are hidden fleet or incite rebellion?

I took the learn to play scenario because the learn to play is only omitting one or two rules, and I would assume it follows the actual set up rules, just predetermining the random systems and unit placements for you. Until we know which systems have Imperial logos and which systems have Rebel logos in the probe deck, we can't simulate the standard set up.

 

29 a side, actually. With 10 project cards for the Empire.

 

2 Copies of Incite, 1 of Hidden Fleet iirc. 

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