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Boris_the_Dwarf

12 pts. for 1 attack die?

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It's 12 not 10 just because otherwise falcon would have gotten a PUNCH (pun intended)

With current PWT position "below the bottom line of power level" it wouldn't have mattered anyway.

 

TLTs still make it hurt and autothrusters make them sad pandas.

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I think it's important to note that the Jumpmaster (especially the contracted scout) has a significant discount in squad point cost compared to similar ships like the Outer Rim Smuggler and Wild Space Fringer.  The cost of the title is then not just the cost of +1 attack, but the cost of +1 attack on top of an already discounted base platform.

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Also the more red dice you have the more they are worth just because defending ships have a limited amount of green dice as well.

 

Noone would pay 12 points to upgrade a 1 attack die turret to a 2 attack dice turret. However wouldnt it be a pretty attractive offer to upgrade the falcon from 3 to 4 attack dice for 12 points?

Edited by CaineHoA

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Also the more red dice you have the more they are worth just because defending ships have a limited amount of green dice as well.

 

Noone would pay 12 points to upgrade a 1 attack die turret to a 2 attack dice turret. However wouldnt it be a pretty attractive offer to upgrade the falcon from 3 to 4 attack dice for 12 points?

Autothruster and evade and SUDDENLY even 3 dice PWT isn't a jawbreaker.

It requires having both focus, R1 bonus and predator for having a chance to punch through some filthy ace_who_is_not_to_be_mentioned

 

Well, actualy it's even hard to punch through a simple jouster-crab! 

So, PWT era is over, and 12 points is too much for that 2-3 damage bump.

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Also the more red dice you have the more they are worth just because defending ships have a limited amount of green dice as well.

 

Noone would pay 12 points to upgrade a 1 attack die turret to a 2 attack dice turret. However wouldnt it be a pretty attractive offer to upgrade the falcon from 3 to 4 attack dice for 12 points?

Autothruster and evade and SUDDENLY even 3 dice PWT isn't a jawbreaker.

It requires having both focus, R1 bonus and predator for having a chance to punch through some filthy ace_who_is_not_to_be_mentioned

 

Well, actualy it's even hard to punch through a simple jouster-crab! 

So, PWT era is over, and 12 points is too much for that 2-3 damage bump.

 

 

Yes if we are talking to a direct counter to PWT, but there are still a lot of other ships in the game who ahve to deal with it. You can build counters to almost everything in the game by now just because you have so many options.

 

There is almost no list that cant be hard countered if you can adjust your list after seeing it.

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Also the more red dice you have the more they are worth just because defending ships have a limited amount of green dice as well.

 

Noone would pay 12 points to upgrade a 1 attack die turret to a 2 attack dice turret. However wouldnt it be a pretty attractive offer to upgrade the falcon from 3 to 4 attack dice for 12 points?

Autothruster and evade and SUDDENLY even 3 dice PWT isn't a jawbreaker.

It requires having both focus, R1 bonus and predator for having a chance to punch through some filthy ace_who_is_not_to_be_mentioned

 

Well, actualy it's even hard to punch through a simple jouster-crab! 

So, PWT era is over, and 12 points is too much for that 2-3 damage bump.

 

 

Yes if we are talking to a direct counter to PWT, but there are still a lot of other ships in the game who ahve to deal with it. You can build counters to almost everything in the game by now just because you have so many options.

 

There is almost no list that cant be hard countered if you can adjust your list after seeing it.

 

TLTs deal with it, Aces deal with it

Jousters are dead for 3 waves already, with the last jouster alive being IG-4000 and it has huge issues with PS9 enemies anyway.

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Attack dice are not created equal.

And we all know it's nearly impossible to tell just how unequal a handful of dice really are.

Rather, 3 red dice will deal more than 150% of the damage of 2 red dice, simply due to how damage mitigation works in this game.

Could be literally infinetly more damage

For example 1 damage getting through 2 evades versus none :P

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So you mean jounsters are dead anyway so you can make their arch-enemies stronger?

With EU PWTs and AT Jousters the circle reverses, so jousters now ought to get down from turrets but beat dodgers.

Yes, I see no problem with turrets beating jousters now.

I just want to see FFG give jousters an edge against aces, it's that simple!

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So you mean jounsters are dead anyway so you can make their arch-enemies stronger?

With EU PWTs and AT Jousters the circle reverses, so jousters now ought to get down from turrets but beat dodgers.

Yes, I see no problem with turrets beating jousters now.

I just want to see FFG give jousters an edge against aces, it's that simple!

 

 

The only jousters i can see who are played with AT are T-70s. And they "only" have 2 agility.

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So you mean jounsters are dead anyway so you can make their arch-enemies stronger?

With EU PWTs and AT Jousters the circle reverses, so jousters now ought to get down from turrets but beat dodgers.

Yes, I see no problem with turrets beating jousters now.

I just want to see FFG give jousters an edge against aces, it's that simple!

 

 

The only jousters i can see who are played with AT are T-70s. And they "only" have 2 agility.

 

 

You don't see Aggressors being played in your area?

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So you mean jounsters are dead anyway so you can make their arch-enemies stronger?

With EU PWTs and AT Jousters the circle reverses, so jousters now ought to get down from turrets but beat dodgers.

Yes, I see no problem with turrets beating jousters now.

I just want to see FFG give jousters an edge against aces, it's that simple!

 

 

The only jousters i can see who are played with AT are T-70s. And they "only" have 2 agility.

 

 

You don't see Aggressors being played in your area?

 

 

I don't see aggressors as jousters. Even if you count them we have 2 out of how many ships?

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Also worth noting that Inq isn't +1 attack die at all; he doesn't go up to 4 at actually-range-1 and getting a 4-die attack at range 1 is really useful.

He is +1 over the other Prototypes at every range. At range 1 they can match his attack value, but where they fall short is at range 3, where he denies his target the bonus defense die. Denying defense dice is worth far more than just adding attack dice.

 

Going for straight symbols, your chances of rolling a hit on any one die are 4 out of 8, or 50%. If you factor in focus results, your chances go up to 6 out of 8.

When rolling defense, you have a 3 out of 8 chance of rolling an evade symbol, and a 5 out of 8 chance of rolling an evade or focus symbol. So by the law of averages you already have a better chance of hitting if you roll 1 attack die vs. 1 defense die.

 

I would need a mathematician with a high level of knowledge to demonstrate the ratios of hitting at higher dice levels but that is getting slightly off track here. All I am saying is that at ranges 2 and 3, the Inquistor gets +1 Attack compared to his counterparts, and denies his target a 3/8 chance of evading his extra 50% chance of hitting. And that's only worth an extra 3 points (instead of 8-12).

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I'm sorry, but since when has crack swarm been dead? That's a list of pure jousters and at all of the store champs I've been to it's been at the top tables. I'd be willing to say it's one of the most competitive archetypes in x-wing currently. With only jousters in the squad.

The 12 point upgrade cost is to balance the top ace. And to be fair it's still a cheap 3 attack pwt afterward. Of course if you're shooting at the current hard counter of pwt you still might not hit. If you're required to deal with your hard counter though, what happened to the rest of your list? Hard counter to a hard core ace is a ps 1 or 2 blocker for 12 points and limiting their maneuver options. If I'm remembering correctly don't most fat pwt ships bring a couple other ships with them to deal with their problems?

I guess what I'm getting at is, I understand that previously the way to wipe soontir fel off the table was to stick a fat turret in your list, but the meta has changed since then.

I almost wish it was still as easy to suddenly lose Fel to 3 dice he couldn't arc-dodge since it made it more satisfying to destroy that turret ship with the other parts of my list. It's gotten so easy to fly ships with boost and barrel roll on the empire side that I rarely fly them at tournaments anymore. I'd rather bring juke FO's or a defender (sometimes both in the same list). Either way though I've said more than enough here and I don't want to derail this thread.

TL;DR: The title is balanced with Dengar's Pilot abillity in mind. Still a decent price point for three attack dice pwt.

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Eh, I can see it being good with Tel.

Agreed. I fully intend to give Tel plenty of opportunities to prove his worth in the Punishing One with a Hull Upgrade. That's 45 points for a 3 attack / 2 agility PWT with 12 hit points. You can bump him to PS 9 for 46 points too. That is extremely comparable to some of the best PWT's out there.

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Another thing to consider is what happens after you include a certain 0 point upgrade and buy some torpedoes. Now you are adding a Crit to each torpedo attack instead of just a Hit. Sure, you still pay extra for the torps. But Dengar and Punishing One are probably actually worth that cost.

I'd bet dollars to donuts that that was a consideration when they decide to cost Punishing One at 12.

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TL;DR: The title is balanced with Dengar's Pilot abillity in mind. Still a decent price point for three attack dice pwt.

  That's pretty poor design planning IMHO. If the concern is for Dengar, then Dengar should have cost more and not the title. There are other cards in the pack that don't break a 3-die attack. And honestly, there are better, cheaper ways to accomplish the same effect as Dengar/Punishing One using other ships if that is the goal.

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So you mean jounsters are dead anyway so you can make their arch-enemies stronger?

With EU PWTs and AT Jousters the circle reverses, so jousters now ought to get down from turrets but beat dodgers.

Yes, I see no problem with turrets beating jousters now.

I just want to see FFG give jousters an edge against aces, it's that simple!

 

 

The only jousters i can see who are played with AT are T-70s. And they "only" have 2 agility.

 

 

You don't see Aggressors being played in your area?

 

 

I don't see aggressors as jousters. Even if you count them we have 2 out of how many ships?

 

 

They have a front arc and quickly shoot past their target resulting in K-turns/S-loops just to keep their targets in arc. This is what jousters do.

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TL;DR: The title is balanced with Dengar's Pilot abillity in mind. Still a decent price point for three attack dice pwt.

  That's pretty poor design planning IMHO. If the concern is for Dengar, then Dengar should have cost more and not the title. There are other cards in the pack that don't break a 3-die attack. And honestly, there are better, cheaper ways to accomplish the same effect as Dengar/Punishing One using other ships if that is the goal.

 

 

They didn't want to repeat the Falcon design mistake so they made the upgraded profile a title instead of baking it into the card.

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So you mean jounsters are dead anyway so you can make their arch-enemies stronger?

With EU PWTs and AT Jousters the circle reverses, so jousters now ought to get down from turrets but beat dodgers.

Yes, I see no problem with turrets beating jousters now.

I just want to see FFG give jousters an edge against aces, it's that simple!

The only jousters i can see who are played with AT are T-70s. And they "only" have 2 agility.

You don't see Aggressors being played in your area?

I don't see aggressors as jousters. Even if you count them we have 2 out of how many ships?

They have a front arc and quickly shoot past their target resulting in K-turns/S-loops just to keep their targets in arc. This is what jousters do.

That's why teh Crab Bros IG-4000 list is the last bright spark of joustwing in the awful and creepy world of acewing!

Long live the Bros!

 

Quote ziggurat fun!

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You could look at it through another lens - how many times are you going to get that extra die?

 

If you compare it to, say, Proton Rockets, which for 3pts give you two additional dice over your primary weapon (assuming a 2 red, 3 green ship) at R1, and requires you to have a Focus token. Once per game.

 

Compared to that, you only need to make about 8 attacks total in a given game to get equivalent value from the title, without any restrictions on Focus.

 

Of course that doesn't take into account that 3 dice every turn is inherently better than 2 dice every turn with a 1-shot option of 5 dice restricted to R1.

 

You could also run comparisons with the Outrider w/ Mangler with costs 9pts, and suddenly Punishing One looks a little less attractive. But then the Outrider can't have a mini-Corran as a pilot, so...

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