Question on the use of downloaded upgrade cards.

[Rapture 499]

 

http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl108.html

 

"Material prepared in connection with a game may be subject to copyright if it contains a sufficient amount of literary or pictorial expression. For example, the text matter describing the rules of the game or the pictorial matter appearing on the gameboard or container may be registrable."

 

Oh.. wait.. I posted another pesky link didn't I. You'd rather we just talked in circles about the topic without actually nailing it down.

 

Your talking about two characters named John with same specific rules pertaining to them both. Game rules constitute an infringement on the original copyright. 

 

There is some wording in the above that you are not acknowledging. I modified the text to give you a little hint.

 

You are missing a key element of copyright law. Just like in the case of trademarks, not everything can be registered/protected. There is no copyright on a lot of the language on X-Wing's, for example, elite pilot talent cards that would survive litigation. It is too generic. If language like that could be copyrighted, there would not be any language left for future rule writers to utilize. This is intentional. The fact that you seem to think that the name John could be protected by copyright shows that you have not bothered to read anything other than the wikipedia page that you posted a link to earlier. If you really are interested, go read some case law. If not, continue spouting nonsense.

 

You need to learn when you've lost the argument. Which you clearly and by your own volition have.

 

Right.

 

The only thing that I can do for you is point you in the right direction.

- Fisher v. United Feature Syndicate, Inc., 37 F. Supp. 2d 1213, 1219-20 (D. Colo. 1999) - This one is fun because it expressly disproves your belief that something like a name can be protected by copyright.

- Interactive Network, Inc. v. NTN Communs., Inc., 875 F. Supp. 1398, 1400 (N.D. Cal. 1995) - This one provides some basics on certain mechanics that cannot be protected by copyright.

 

Maybe you can come back and tell me that I am wrong with some justification other than you think that I should be. If so, I won't complain about learning something new.

 

Or, don't read the cases. You seem very confident that your opinion is 100% correct even without doing any research or having any knowledge on the subject. Also, feel free to continue declaring victory. It is very convincing.

Edited March 26, 2016 by Rapture

[Darth Emphatic 148]

Why are we still talking about this?

[Darth Emphatic 148]

Double post

Edited March 26, 2016 by Darth Emphatic

[joliversc 23]

X-Wing Rules page 17

Gather Forces: The players reveal their squads and gather all of the ships, cards, and other components necessary for their squads. Each ship in the squad must have the correct plastic ship, ship token, maneuver dial, Ship card, and any Upgrade cards chosen, as well as ID tokens if necessary.

 

Darth Emphatic:

To be honest, I'm not entirely sure, I think it's because he retracts one portion of his argument only to throw barbs concerning irreverent portions of his failed argument when he does.

Edited March 26, 2016 by joliversc

[Vulf 911]

If its a casual night, meaning no stakes involved, people dont typically care if you proxy your list. I do this regularly just because it is easier than pulling out cards every time I want to play something new. You still need to have the ship and pilot base tile though.

 

I don't mind if they want to proxy cards they own by just printing out the list. Running upgrades that they don't have because they don't want to buy the ships it comes with, I'm against. Just because it will eventually get out of hand.

 

Used to play MTG against a guy that kept using a $4000 proxy deck. After 3 weeks it became clear he had no intention of buying those cards we told him to use a real deck.

 

I'll also let you borrow my stuff as long as you are playing me or near me. Not in a tournament though, I won't be able to keep track of who has my stuff.

But use what you have and try to make it work, you don't need a net list to have fun or be competitive.

Edited March 26, 2016 by Vulf

[joliversc 23]

Rapture:

 

Since both your links contain a literal hodgepodge of legalize would you care to be more specific regarding your claim? I'm not about to spam this forum with abstracts taken from your links without knowing exactly what you are talking about as none of these cases concern themselves with copyright infringement as we are discussing it.

 

http://www.copyright.../fls/fl108.html

"Material prepared in connection with a game that is subject to copyright if it contains a sufficient amount of literary or pictorial expression. For example, the text matter describing the rules of the game or the pictorial matter appearing on the gameboard or container may be registrable."

 

You gave an example of a character named John with a specific set of rules and mentioned a character in a different game, who is also named John, that contained that same specific set of rules and asked if I considered it copyright infringement. I think I've made it clear that I do.

 

I previously posted the section 17 laws concerning copyright infringement. The Legal definition of the term copyright. A link to an encyclopedia entry concerning copyright law and finally I re-posted the above link from the Copyright.Gov site which is directly on point.

 

Judging from the links I have presented and the fact that your links concern things that are entirely different. Infringement by name alone, Infringement due to A/V representation or whether a company even had a copyright on the materials discussed in the case. I stand on my previous stated position that specific rules included in a particular game are copyrighted materials.

 

But by all means, bow out of the discussion while claiming I'm woefully ignorant of my position for the third time now.

 

Amended:

Let me just add this here to wrap this discussion up:

http://copyright.gov/comp3/chap700/ch700-literary-works.pdf

 

714: Games

A game may be registered as a literary work if the predominant form of authorship in the work consists of text. Examples of works that may satisfy this requirement include word games, card games, party games, riddles, brain teasers, and similar diversions, including the instructions or directions for playing a particular game. A game may be registered as a work of the visual arts if the predominant form of authorship consists of pictorial or sculptural authorship. 

Edited March 26, 2016 by joliversc

[Dr Zoidberg 3,200]

Come for the X-Wing, stay for the... legal debate?

[thespaceinvader 17,568]

Why are we still talking about this?

[namdoolb 290]

Here's another angle for this.

 

1)- I don't proxy. I do not buy certain expansions because I cannot justify the expense for an un-quantifiable gain.

 

2)- I do proxy to test cards out that I am thinking of buying. Some of these cards I buy because I like how they work, others I do not like and thus don't use again.

 

In which scenario does FFG/my lgs make more money off me?

Which scenario is more damaging to FFG or my lgs?

[Rapture 499]

Rapture:

Since both your links contain a literal hodgepodge of legalize...

What a surprise - actual law containing words and concepts that can't be determined by using a dictionary. I pulled cases for you. I am not writing you a brief. Read them.

I previously posted the section 17 laws...

It is Title 17. That kind of inattention to detail is why you are having so much trouble with this.

http://copyright.gov/comp3/chap700/ch700-literary-works.pdf

714: Games[/size]

A game may be registered as a literary work if the predominant form of authorship in the work consists of text. Examples of works that may satisfy this requirement include word games, card games, party games, riddles, brain teasers, and similar diversions, including the instructions or directions for playing a particular game. A game may be registered as a work of the visual arts if the predominant form of authorship consists of pictorial or sculptural authorship.

First of all, I do not know what that is. Only statutes and case law (and potentially some administrative rulings - but I don't know anything about that in this context) have any actual impact when it comes to copyright law. Second, did you apply that language to this discussion? You think that X-Wing satisfies one or both of those 'if's? You are just dropping language because you do not know how to apply it.

I gave you cases and asked you to prove my interpretation wrong. I thought that you might be capable of understanding the law, at least to know that certain concepts exist. You did prove me wrong, just not with respect to my interpretation.

Edited March 26, 2016 by Rapture

[Darth Emphatic 148]

Can someone, for the love of the force and wing, lock this thread.

[joliversc 23]

I've said all that I have to say on the subject of copyright.

Edited March 26, 2016 by joliversc

[StevenO 2,996]

Here's another angle for this.

 

1)- I don't proxy. I do not buy certain expansions because I cannot justify the expense for an un-quantifiable gain.

 

2)- I do proxy to test cards out that I am thinking of buying. Some of these cards I buy because I like how they work, others I do not like and thus don't use again.

 

In which scenario does FFG/my lgs make more money off me?

Which scenario is more damaging to FFG or my lgs?

 

In these cases what you're suggesting probably doesn't change what you'd buy one bit.  Now with the first you may wait longer before making the purchase after the potential gain has been "quantified" by others through a more thorough evaluation and play.  With the second you're trying to gain the "quantified" a bit earlier and from personal experience.

 

Now even if the second does make your purchase happen faster it is still likely to happen anyway.  There is also a pretty big difference between proxy to test things, and I MUST assume that you are also going to allow people to proxy ships and dials as well as part of your "testing," and just saying that allowing proxies as a general thing for even casual play is a good thing.

 

The problem here is when #2 wants to "test" against an unwitting/unwilling #1 and then feels cheated because #1 doesn't play that way.

[namdoolb 290]

 

The problem here is when #2 wants to "test" against an unwitting/unwilling #1 and then feels cheated because #1 doesn't play that way.

 

Well, the onus here is clearly on #2 not to get hurt that #1 doesn't want to play with proxies, and respect his/her wishes.

 

Proxies are a consensual thing, and any good player should have the good sense not to roll them out unless the opponent is ok with it.

[StevenO 2,996]

 

 

The problem here is when #2 wants to "test" against an unwitting/unwilling #1 and then feels cheated because #1 doesn't play that way.

 

Well, the onus here is clearly on #2 not to get hurt that #1 doesn't want to play with proxies, and respect his/her wishes.

 

Proxies are a consensual thing, and any good player should have the good sense not to roll them out unless the opponent is ok with it.

 

 

At issue in this thread is that it is starting to seem like people are EXPECTING to be allowed to play using proxied cards and then holds it against a potential opponent who doesn't want to play that way.  You probably don't want to go through all of these threads but there are some who have said that if they run up against someone who doesn't want to allow proxies they'd just say "forget it" and move on to find someone who would.  Get a few people doing that and what does the "non-proxy" player have to do?

 

When two players are completely onboard with any house rules, including proxies, then there really isn't much anyone can do to stop it.  To me the problem is when such a house rule gets so ingrained into someone that they start believing it is the way everyone should play and they look down at those who don't.

[namdoolb 290]

That is a problem, although I suspect more a problem with people than with proxies.

 

I have a fairly long history playing Magic, and although the proxy hate tends to come for the most part from the other direction in that game I have encountered/heard of my fair share of similar occurrences in that game.

 

Most of the "no thanks, I'll pass" in magic seems to occur when one player A wants to test a deck but player B's deck is not mainstream or netdecked enough for him. At which point he goes looking for player C who has a more popular deck to test against.

 

I may have rambled slightly, but the point I was trying to work towards is that sadly there are people who are way to used to doing things exactly the way they want without compromise or regard, and these people will continue to exist regardless of the situation on proxies.

 

All there is for most of us to do is to use them responsibly (if at all), and hope others can do the same.

[Vulf 911]

There's something greasy about running proxies for cards of items being sold in the store you are playing in.

You can find a list for any ship in the game, there are no useless purchases.

 

I would never be ok with my opponent proxying something from an Epic Ship expansion. We already know what those cards do, there is no reason to test them. Plebeians...

[StevenO 2,996]

That is a problem, although I suspect more a problem with people than with proxies.

 

I have a fairly long history playing Magic, and although the proxy hate tends to come for the most part from the other direction in that game I have encountered/heard of my fair share of similar occurrences in that game.

 

...

 

So much of the fun I had with MtG was making nice, playable, and even passably thematic decks just out of the commons and uncommons.  Sure they'd often get destroyed by a "tournament" quality deck because they weren't as efficient as they could be but playing bears instead Meddling Wizards is a whole lot cheaper.  If people want to complain about spending $10-$15 for an expansion just to get an upgrade maybe they should consider some of those rare MtG cards go for a LOT more than that.

 

You play magic and proxy a Black Lotus that's one thing but for the price to acquire one of those you should be able to buy any two X-Wing squadrons from scratch. 

[TezzasGames 1,014]

You play magic and proxy a Black Lotus that's one thing but for the price to acquire one of those you should be able to buy any two X-Wing squadrons from scratch.

Have you checked the price for a Black Lotus, lately?

[DraconPyrothayan 6,107]

 

You play magic and proxy a Black Lotus that's one thing but for the price to acquire one of those you should be able to buy any two X-Wing squadrons from scratch.

Have you checked the price for a Black Lotus, lately?

 

Price of one Black Lotus buys you all of the ships in the game, multiple times over.

[StevenO 2,996]

 

You play magic and proxy a Black Lotus that's one thing but for the price to acquire one of those you should be able to buy any two X-Wing squadrons from scratch.

Have you checked the price for a Black Lotus, lately?

 

 

No.  I haven't looking any time recently.  Are you saying you can find one for LESS than the price of any two standard X-Wing squadrons buying all of the components at MSRP?  What would be the going price for tournament legal Black Lotus these days?

 

I was being extremely conservative when saying how much X-Wing a lotus could get you.  I know some copies have sold for absolutely stupid amounts of money.

[Vulf 911]

I wouldn't allow anyone at my table to proxy black lotus to begin with. And the rest of the table would be on my side.

 

But this is one of the reasons I'm moving towards LCGs.  Newer sets with nothing out of print, there is no randomness, and we can play in a group more like a board game.

[joliversc 23]

An unlimited Black Lotus (From the third printing of Magic. First Alpha's then Beta's then the Unlimited's)

 

The price for an Alpha or Beta in mint condition could likely send someone through college.

 

The Unlimited's sell from between 7,000 and 4,500 US currently.

Edited March 28, 2016 by joliversc

[ozmodon 535]

I watch people play 40k with proky..

I hope this game doesn't fall so far. If someone is allowed to proky cards...

what is to stop them from ....

Someone Came to our store with a proxy card.. We didn't say anything but I personally felt cheated none the less..

[namdoolb 290]

 

That is a problem, although I suspect more a problem with people than with proxies.

 

I have a fairly long history playing Magic, and although the proxy hate tends to come for the most part from the other direction in that game I have encountered/heard of my fair share of similar occurrences in that game.

 

...

 

So much of the fun I had with MtG was making nice, playable, and even passably thematic decks just out of the commons and uncommons.  Sure they'd often get destroyed by a "tournament" quality deck because they weren't as efficient as they could be but playing bears instead Meddling Wizards is a whole lot cheaper.  If people want to complain about spending $10-$15 for an expansion just to get an upgrade maybe they should consider some of those rare MtG cards go for a LOT more than that.

 

You play magic and proxy a Black Lotus that's one thing but for the price to acquire one of those you should be able to buy any two X-Wing squadrons from scratch. 

 

 

Just about everyone who read my post missed the point... Probably need to work some on my communication skills

I wasn't meaning to compare the relative costs of proxying between the two games...

Mostly I wanted to make the observation that I have seen far more people be declined for games in magic due to playing a "not good enough deck" than for any proxy related issues.

To make an equivalent situation in x-wing it would be like a palp-aces or brobots player seeing their opponent set up a motley collection of ships and saying "you know what, I'm going to find someone with a real squad to play against."

In magic, where proxies have existed for years upon years, they still create less of a divide in the playerbase than the above shenanigans.

To summarize, some people are just (insert expletive here). They may use proxies as an excuse, but they'd still be that way even if they didn't.