Question on the use of downloaded upgrade cards.

[Rapture 499]

Once a group starts proxing as a general rule, where does it end? If you're going to proxy upgrade cards why not ships as well? I've seen other tabletop Miniature games devolve to this level before.

I've already stated that -you- and -yours- can do as y'all see fit. But I'm posting this in case any of the players in my little corner of the X-Wing world read this thread. We have players who often visit this forum.

Of course! First, players proxy printed pieces of paper with other printed pieces of paper. Next thing you know, they are using 3rd party acrylic token, proxying their opponents with cardboard cutouts of B-level 90s celebrities, and murdering each other in the streets.

Your slippery slope argument, just like all slippery slope arguments, is not even worth considering. The reality of the situation relating to proxies is that players will do it to whatever extent is 1) practical, 2) accepted by the individuals that they play with, 3) keeps them from feeling like they are wasting money, and 4) does not damage their own experience. IF the game devolves into something around the level of soda can drop pods and cereal box landraiders, then that means that the game is weak and not properly designed to make players feel like continuing purchases are worthwhile. So, the game would be on its way out anyway.

Edited March 25, 2016 by Rapture

[joliversc 23]

My 'slippery slope' argument is worth considering as I've seen it happen first hand. Games like Warhammer 40k and Fantasy, BattleTech, Warmachine and especially Magic the Gathering have all taken downturns once everyone starts to proxy on a regular basis.

I know let's just punish the players who go out of their way and play this game by the rules by taking the easier route and pirating copyright materials. I don't bite the hand that feeds me.

 

If you want to defraud FFG or play with other players who do the same, as I've said before that's not my business as long as I'm not involved.

Edited March 25, 2016 by joliversc

[Darth Emphatic 148]

My 'slippery slope' argument is worth considering as I've seen it happen first hand. Games like Warhammer 40k and Fantasy, BattleTech, Warmachine and especially Magic the Gathering have all taken downturns once everyone starts to proxy on a regular basis.

I know let's just punish the players who go out of their way and play this game by the rules by taking the easier route and pirating copyright materials. I don't bite the hand that feeds me.

 

If you want to defraud FFG or play with other players who do the same, as I've said before that's not my business as long as I'm not involved.

MTG has tourneys with $40,000 prize money...not sure how that can be viewed as a downturn. Also, I am not aware of this no-proxy rule in casual play you keep talking about. Please point us to this spot in the rules.

[WWHSD 9,273]

Proxying cards in casual games is "try before you buy" (I guess "fly-before-you-buy" would be appropriate for X-Wing). It lets you fly a list a few times and get a feel for whether or not you like it enough to spend the cash on it. It also allows people to practice against what they expect to see at tournaments without having to own enough cards to build every single list that's currently popular.

 

Proxying in casual games is good for the health of the game.  

[Hexdot 1,340]

Joliversk, then I am a cheater, I abuse in FFG and go the easy way.

I own 12 X, 24 Tie, at least 4 of each small ship and 2 each Large and Epic. And I print upgrades. And write Home Rules that break the comunity. I am the worst player FFG could desire. Also own Armada, Rebel Assault...

Man, you should think about your POV

Edited March 25, 2016 by Hexdot

[joliversc 23]

I can do better than a rule, how about a law:

 

http://copyright.gov/title17/

 

Try before you fly -is- a good general rule and is good for the game. Proxying long term is -not- good for the health of the game.

 

I've said it multiple times in this thread and I'll say it again:

 

If you want to defraud FFG, or play with other players who do the same, that's not my business as long as I'm not involved.

Edited March 25, 2016 by joliversc

[Hexdot 1,340]

The "no proxy at all" killed MTG in my game area. The community was quite small and 5-6 players who invested a huge ammount of time and money purchasing top cards ( black lotud, etc ). The harassed young players who proxied. No proxy if they were in the store. They talked about laws, too.

So no playing in the store. As we did not played there, buy cars elsewhere, cheaper. So no more tournaments. So MTG died. But they won the games they played against much younger players.

If you fly cassual, buy models, not cards

[Rapture 499]

 

My 'slippery slope' argument is worth considering as I've seen it happen first hand.

 

No slippery slope argument is worth considering. It assumes that no intervening events/actions can disrupt the increasingly damaging slipping, which is moronic.

 

I can do better than a rule, how about a law:

 

http://copyright.gov/title17/

 

Try before you fly -is- a good general rule and is good for the game. Proxying long term is -not- good for the health of the game.

 

I've said it multiple times in this thread and I'll say it again:

 

If you want to defraud FFG, or play with other players who do the same, that's not my business as long as I'm not involved.

 

Ha. Is there something specific that you would like to share from Title 17?

 

You might think that proxying is bad for the long-terms health of the game, but you do not have any evidence to support that. This game has only one real purchase requirements, upgrade cards, that stands in the way of players. If rampant proxying does actually start, it will likely be limited to only those cards. Whether those cards are originals, copies, digital versions, or notes on a piece of paper has no impact on the actual game. You might be frothing to tell me that FFG's bottom line will suffer if people are not compelled by their local communities to purchase ships that they do not want/need in order to get a single piece of paper out of it, but FFG is a business that knew exactly what it was doing when it utilized that restrictive model. It will adapt and survive as long as players stay interested in the game.

 

Say that all you want. In reality, FFG supplies the language for all of the cards in X-Wing. Writing "Push the Limit" on a piece of paper and placing it next to a Soontir Fel pilot card is not copyright infringement, defrauding FFG, or any other kind of civil/criminal infraction. Photocopying a card might be, but not all proxies are copies. There are a number of ways to proxy in X-Wing without breaking any laws.

[joliversc 23]

Since you are too lazy to look through the provided source, let me make things clearer to you.

 

Section 501, Subsection 1 

 

Then there is the established definition:

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/copyright

 

Then we have the Wikipedia entry for copyright:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright

 

Then we have this which explicitly describes copyright when referring to game rules:

http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl108.html

 

In some weird way this -might- be important as well:

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/more/legal-information/

 

Do we have any further questions in regards to copyright infringement?

Edited March 25, 2016 by joliversc

[Rapture 499]

Since you are too lazy to look through the provided source, let me make things clearer to you.

 

Section 501, Subsection 1 

 

Then there is the established definition:

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/copyright

 

Then we have the Wikipedia entry for copyright:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright

 

Then we have this which explicitly describes copyright when referring to game rules:

http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl108.html

 

Do we have any further questions in regards to copyright?

 

Title 17 is very large. Me not wanting to pick through it and guess why you thought that it was appropriate to drop a link to it without even referencing a chapter is not lazy.

 

Now you provided a section, but why? What are you trying to prove? That photocopying a FFG card is copyright infringement? Fine. Who said that it was not? As I pointed out previously, which you conveniently ignored, there are a lot of way to proxy cards and many of them are not copyright infringement.

 

Finally, 1) dictionaries do not make law and are not credible source for the law, 2) wikipedia is no more reliable that asking your neighbor, and 3) that page that you posted on game copyrighting literally says that it only applies to the "author’s expression in literary, artistic, or musical form," which many forms or proxies do not involve the use of.

 

Instead of just dropping links, why not just say what you want to say?

[joliversc 23]

Since you characterized my previous comment as moronic I figured some hard sources were in order.  

 

Dictionaries are extremely important when referring to laws. Without the very definition of words what exactly is a written law worth?

 

The Wikipedia is a very reliable source if you know how to actually use it.

 

Literary expression is precisely what game rules are. As stated specifically here:

http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl108.html

Edited March 25, 2016 by joliversc

[joliversc 23]

From Webster's New World Law Dictionary: 

 

Copywright

n

 

"The exclusive statutory right of literary (authors, playwrights, poets), musical (composers, musicians), visual (painters, photographers, sculptors), and other artists to control the reproduction, use, and disposition of their work, usually for their lifetime plus seventy years. The Copyright Act of 1976 governs most copyrights in the United States. See also copy and fair use."

Edited March 25, 2016 by joliversc

[Rapture 499]

 

Since you characterized my previous comment as moronic I figured some hard sources were in order.  

 

Slippery slope arguments are moronic. Citation to a dictionary doesn't change that.

 

Dictionaries are extremely important when referring to laws. Without the very definition of words what exactly is a written law worth?

 

Sometimes, but definitely not in the case. Statutes provide their own definitions for legal terms (like in 17 U.S.C.§ 101). The definition of the "copyright," as per a common dictionary, means nothing in the legal context.

 

Literary expression is precisely what game rules are. As stated specifically here:

http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl108.html

 

You think that the X-Wing rules contain substantial literary expression? Are you suggesting that something like "[o]nce per round, after you perform an action, you may perform 1 free action shown in your action bar" can be protected by copyright? It is possible, but I seriously doubt it.

 

Regardless, my point that a multitude of potential avenues for proxies without copyright infringement exist still stands.

Edited March 25, 2016 by Rapture

[joliversc 23]

A game rule is indeed a literary expression. I don't believe the term substantial was mentioned in any of my sources but I could be wrong.

 

But that is besides the point:

 

X-Wing Rules page 17

Gather Forces: The players reveal their squads and gather all of the ships, cards, and other components necessary for their squads. Each ship in the squad must have the correct plastic ship, ship token, maneuver dial, Ship card, and any Upgrade cards chosen, as well as ID tokens if necessary.

 

Upgrade cards do not include rules jotted down on napkins, post-it notes or rules farted out of someone's pet monkey in Morse code on demand. If they are photographic copies of the original cards they are in clear violation of copyright laws. Besides the rule specifically states correct.

 

Therefore your statement of "a multitude of potential avenues for proxies without copyright infringement exist still stands" Holds no water.

Edited March 25, 2016 by joliversc

[Rapture 499]

You are not thinking.

 

A game rule is indeed a literary expression. I don't believe the term substantial was mentioned in any of my sources but I could be wrong.

 

But that is besides the point:

 

X-Wing Rules page 17

Gather Forces: The players reveal their squads and gather all of the ships, cards, and other components necessary for their squads. Each ship in the squad must have the correct plastic ship, ship token, maneuver dial, Ship card, and any Upgrade cards chosen, as well as ID tokens if necessary.

 

You win. I concede with regard to what you quoted. That means that no one is legally allowed to proxy a photocopy of the Rules Reference. However, I find myself, again, wondering why you keep raising irrelevant points like this.

 

Are you suggesting that all of the rules for X-Wing are subject to copyright? What about the Push the Limit language that I cited (and you ignored) is literary? Is that a substantial literary expression? Do you think that mechanical game rule language like that can be protected by copyright? If so, every game that tells you to roll a die is probably subject to some pretty heavy claims by whatever the first game to include rules about rolling dice was.

 

Therefore your statement of "a multitude of potential avenues for proxies without copyright infringement exist still stands" Holds no water.

 

You are not thinking. How about a card the same size and shape of Push the Limit with the words from Push the Limit written on it? How about a written list of Pilots with the name of their upgrades written below them and then, when one's opponent asks to see the card language, typing that upgrade in a search engine and showing them? Think. There are plenty of ways to use substitutions of cards that do not involve copies of copyrighted material.

 

 If they are photographic copies of the original cards they are in clear violation of copyright laws.

 

Who is contesting that? Who cares? Who are you talking to? It can't be me, because I keep pointing out, even though you keep ignoring it, that it does not matter if photocopying card is illegal - there are other ways to use a proxy.

Edited March 25, 2016 by Rapture

[joliversc 23]

All the rules to X-Wing are covered by copyright, even if FFG doesn't sue anyone over it, they are still covered by copyright. 

 

There may be a zillion of ways to use a resource that is not a Correct upgrade card. But this would fall outside the realm of the rules to the game and therefor be illegal. There are no ways to legally use a proxy, in any form or format, in casual or tournament play.

 

If we are now discussing ways to play the game by circumventing the rules, I have nothing more to offer. Except perhaps redirecting you to my earlier statements regarding proxying everything, if your going to break one aspect of a rule, why not break them all.

 

Circumvent the rules all you want, it's none of my business unless I am directly involved.

Edited March 25, 2016 by joliversc

[Hexdot 1,340]

Kant would be proud. The Law must be respected because it is the Law. A respectable point if view, of course.

Try to break the rules from time to time. Fix a ship you think is overcosted. Create your own upgrade. Play nose on earth with your swarm flying in a wooden area ( no.over it ).

It is refreshing. Casual play of course.

[Rapture 499]

All the rules to X-Wing are covered by copyright, even if FFG doesn't sue anyone over it, they are still covered by copyright.

I won't argue against you choosing to no longer participate in this discussion, just know that the above is objectively wrong. Not everything can be protected by copyright and, on some level, you already know that. Imagine if a game designer build a game and published rules for a character named "John" who had the special rule "Covering Fire - This character can attack when an ally moves." If what you are claiming is correct is true, then no other games could have characters named John or that very simple covering fire rule. The law doesn't work like that for a reason.

[joliversc 23]

I'm an 'Everyone should have as much freedom as they can handle' sort of guy.' If you or anyone wants to bend a rule, tweak a rule or just make up your own rules and your play partners agree. More power to you. I just happened to get involved in a fur-ball over what is or is not copyrighted. The group I play with is competitive. We build lists to conquer our opponents, we crow about our wins, grumble over our losses and tease the last person who flew off the board mercilessly, all in good fun.

 

In our environment were not going to allow someone to purchase three Jumpmasters and proxy everything else to make a U-Boat list to play with week after week. It just wouldn't be fair. I'm playing tomorrow and if someone asked if they could proxy three large based ships along with everything to play the U-boats, I would let them without thinking twice about it. But to want to play it competitively within the group as a regular thing wouldn't be acceptable to the group at large.

 

I mentioned earlier that I'm going to proxy a few R2 units and some integrated astromechs because I'm not yet committed to using a four T-70 list yet. No one expects me to "buy before I fly" as someone put it earlier in the discussion. But if I like the list I'm going to obtain the proper cards either by buying the expansions or via Ebay. It's just how our group plays.

 

I wouldn't expect every group to play by our rules. It's why I keep saying 'You can play as you want to play as long as I am not involved'. If I am involved we are going to play as we agree to play. Simple.

 

Freedom is a rare and often overlooked gift, drink it up with both hands.

[joliversc 23]

You still want to quibble

 

If company A had a character named John with the ability to use Covering Fire - This character can attack when an ally moves. And company B came out with a character named John whose ability was Covering Fire - This character can attack when an ally moves. it would indeed be a breech of the copyright laws, whether it was enforced by company A or not. If that piece was named 'Machine Gunner' I don't think it would be infringing on any copyright law.

 

It's why the gaming industry has so many usage(?) terms and clauses. WizKids paid FFG to use the X-Wing mechanic for their Attack Wing game. Wiz Kids pays all the companies who own all the copyrights to the characters they use in their Hero Clicks game. Wizards of the Coast made the D&D 3.5 edition rules open sourced when Pathfinder wanted to use the system. Whoever makes all those wacky versions of Monopoly pays to use those copyrights. All the rules to all these games are copyrighted. If company B made a game with a Boardwalk space in some game and that space contained all the rules that Monopoly Boardwalk uses, they would be infringing on that copyright.

Edited March 25, 2016 by joliversc

[Hexdot 1,340]

Really a disciple of Kant. You mentioned D&D... In Ad&d second, 3 and 3.5 the designers recomend you to change, adapt and enjoy the game because once you start playing it is YOUR game. When playing with your friend, family, room mates etc, you can do your will.

I can play x wing with d6, deflection shooting, a pilot named Rolling Stone or whatever I want. Unless I intend to make profit. This is the Red Line.

You can play 100% by The Rules, play to win and try every legal trick to smash your enemy. A high number of players want to play that way. But I do not infling any law or regulation if I play a game the way most refreshing to our group.

And of course your point of view is the only aceptable.way to play Tournament style. I have nothing else to say, good luck and enjoy this superb game.

[StevenO 2,996]

The "no proxy at all" killed MTG in my game area. The community was quite small and 5-6 players who invested a huge ammount of time and money purchasing top cards ( black lotud, etc ). The harassed young players who proxied. No proxy if they were in the store. They talked about laws, too.

So no playing in the store. As we did not played there, buy cars elsewhere, cheaper. So no more tournaments. So MTG died. But they won the games they played against much younger players.

If you fly cassual, buy models, not cards

 

In MtG you have limited releases and random availability; something that X-Wing does NOT have.  If WotC were to put out those top cards in a reasonably acquirable way I don't think you'd see any need to proxy in MtG.  Find me a place to buy a legally playable Black Lotus for $10 or so and there goes a major reason to proxy instead of needing to dish out hundreds for that one stupid, yet potentially powerful, card.

 

If you're playing X-Wing by the rules you should already know where to get everything needed for your squadron and how much it would cost to play that.  Perhaps it is a sales method FFG uses but if you want to run all of those copies you know what it should cost.

 

If you want to play proxy cards continually in a casual setting and I don't want to is seems that makes me the bad person.  On the other hand if I want proxy ships because I don't want to purchase the three large ships to make up a U-boat list then I am bad person just for asking when you refuse it.  There is no difference in those situations.

[Hexdot 1,340]

To be concise, it is not about if you proxy or not. It is about if you are breaking legality when printing upgrade cards for personal use, or if House Ruling breaks copyright. My country's legal sistem say it is not against any regulation. I can play the games I purchase as I want to. I can deploy Genestealers as land targets, write rules to play with a Scum ship that is a Enterprise on a Raider size base. And it is not copyright violation.

And the day that you should be forced to play a boardgame without changing a word in the rulebook because the owner of the copyright forbides it, well... A good day to go Roge and erase the code bar on your forehead.

[Rapture 499]

You still want to quibble

 

If company A had a character named John with the ability to use Covering Fire - This character can attack when an ally moves. And company B came out with a character named John whose ability was Covering Fire - This character can attack when an ally moves. it would indeed be a breech of the copyright laws, whether it was enforced by company A or not. If that piece was named 'Machine Gunner' I don't think it would be infringing on any copyright law.

 

It's why the gaming industry has so many usage(?) terms and clauses. WizKids paid FFG to use the X-Wing mechanic for their Attack Wing game. Wiz Kids pays all the companies who own all the copyrights to the characters they use in their Hero Clicks game. Wizards of the Coast made the D&D 3.5 edition rules open sourced when Pathfinder wanted to use the system. Whoever makes all those wacky versions of Monopoly pays to use those copyrights. All the rules to all these games are copyrighted. If company B made a game with a Boardwalk space in some game and that space contained all the rules that Monopoly Boardwalk uses, they would be infringing on that copyright.

You have almost no understanding of what you are talking about. No one can copyright the name 'John' for a character. This is true for the same reason that most song names cannot be protected by copyright but the lyrics can - the names are generally generic and would be exhauster relatively quickly.

You need to do some research before you continue to unknowingly spread misinformation.

[joliversc 23]

http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl108.html

 

"Material prepared in connection with a game may be subject to copyright if it contains a sufficient amount of literary or pictorial expression. For example, the text matter describing the rules of the game or the pictorial matter appearing on the gameboard or container may be registrable."

 

Oh.. wait.. I posted another pesky link didn't I. You'd rather we just talked in circles about the topic without actually nailing it down.

 

Your talking about two characters named John with same specific rules pertaining to them both. Game rules constitute an infringement on the original copyright. 

 

You need to learn when you've lost the argument. Which you clearly and by your own volition have.

Edited March 26, 2016 by joliversc