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Seanamal

Abilities that trigger after defending and ship destruction

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Apologies if this has been answered elsewhere but I haven't seen the appropriate thread.

 

Do abilities that trigger after defending (Dengar, R5-P8) still trigger if the ship is destroyed in the attack? What if the simultaneous fire rule is in effect?

 

The problem is the rules are a little vague as to when a ship is destroyed. I see two logic paths which are implied but not expressly spelled out by the rules.

 

Path 1: When a ship receives damage equal to it's hull value it is removed from the play area unless it is the same pilot skill of the attacking ship AND the attacker has initiative. In which case it may make its attack before being removed from the table.

 

Path 2: when a ship receives damage equal to hits hull it is removed from the table at the end of of the pilot skill count it was destroyed in.

 

I can see a number of weird timing interactions here.

 

Example 1: Dengar (PS9) w/r5-p8 is attacked and destroyed by a ps8 ship. With path 1 neither of Dengars abilities trigger. With path 2 both do.

 

Example 2: Dengar (ps9) w/ r5-p8 is attacked and destroyed by a ps9 ship. If dengar has initiative with path 1 neither of his abilities trigger. if he doesn't have initiative both his abilities trigger. He then gets to make his primary attack. with path 2 his abilities trigger with or without initiative.

 

Example 3: Tel Trevura (PS7) w/r5-p8 and deadman's switch is destroyed for the first time by a ps7 pilot.He chooses to trigger r5-p8 after the attack and rolls a crit causing him and his opponent to take 1 damage.

With path 1 if Tel has initiative he is destroyed for the second time. If he doesn't have initiative he can trigger r5-p8, roll a crit, take the additional damage BEFORE his pilot ability triggers. Path 2 is the same as him not having initiative in path 1.

 

Example 4: an omicron group pilot(ps2) w/ Emperor palpatine is destroyed by a ps9 ship that possesses initiative. Soontir fel Attacks the ship that attacked the shuttle. In path 1 palpatine is no longer available, in path 2 Palpatine can modify Soontir's roll.

 

I've submitted this question and got no answer back. Has anyone gotten back an official answer which might shed some light on this?

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According to the FAQ for Valen Rudor (FAQ PG 10): If Valen Rudor defends against a ship equipped with Tactician, the range for Tactician is measured after Valen Rudor performs his free action.

 

Valen Rudor Text: After defending you may perform a free action.

Tactician Text: After you perform an attack

 

Summation: There is a timing window that happens there.  so yes, Dengar gets to shoot at Whisper before she cloaks, etc.....

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Yes I read that ruling. And yes I agree with the implied timing window. The issue is what is the timing window on ship destruction? I've gone through the FAQ and manuals extensively and there's really no clear answer.

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If you are subject to Simultaneous Fire (i.e. not removed yet because an equal PS pilot shot first and killed you), you can definitely take any actions you could take if you hadn't been destroyed.

 

As for the rest, I think the Valen/Tactician ruling is kinda janky and should have been based on initiative like any other timing conflict.  It's kinda weird that they singled that one out as not being, it really muddies the water on basically any other timing conflict that isn't that one.

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It wasn't all that important recently; this is I think the first time there have been things other than Dead Man's Switch and the Pup no-one uses which trigger after defending which might also trigger after dying.

 

In fact, I think this might be the first wave where 'after defending' was a trigger at all?

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I think the Valen/Tactician ruling is kinda janky and should have been based on initiative like any other timing conflict.

Also, even if Rudor goes first, Tactician should still trigger. The trigger was "you attack a ship in arc at range 2", and even if that ship then moves, the trigger still occurred so should be resolved.

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I think the Valen/Tactician ruling is kinda janky and should have been based on initiative like any other timing conflict.

Also, even if Rudor goes first, Tactician should still trigger. The trigger was "you attack a ship in arc at range 2", and even if that ship then moves, the trigger still occurred so should be resolved.

 

As noted, I think the Rudor/Tactician ruling is bad and should (and hopefully will) be amended.

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I cracked Dengar out in our little group on release and it came up in a couple of games where Dengar was destroyed but his attacker was in Dengars arc. We figured that since he was destroyed he didn't get his attack. I'm already in love with the Jumpmaster and Dengar, but if it turns out he does get his attack even if he would be destroyed that would just make him so much better!

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Path 2 is incorrect.  According to the simultaneous fire rule:

"Even if the ship did not have a valid target for an attack, it is removed after its opportunity to attack passes."

 

"While the Simultaneous Attack Rule keeps a ship in the play area, that ships abilities and Damage cards remain active"

 

So no abilities would fire after that ships opportunity to attack.

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Path 1: When a ship receives damage equal to it's hull value it is removed from the play area unless it is the same pilot skill of the attacking ship AND the attacker has initiative. In which case it may make its attack before being removed from the table.

 

Path 2: when a ship receives damage equal to hits hull it is removed from the table at the end of of the pilot skill count it was destroyed in.

 

Path 1 is correct, because:

If a ship has a number of Damage cards equal to its hull value, it is destroyed.

A ship is destroyed when it has a number of Damage cards equal to its hull value or when it flees the battlefield. When a ship is destroyed, remove it from the play area, discard all of its Damage cards, and return all of its tokens to the supply.

So the ship would be removed during the Deal Damage step of the attack. The two exceptions to this are "Fel's Wrath" and (as you noted) the Simultaneous Attack Rule.

 

There's still some situations where the attack itself doesn't destroy you but "After you perform an attack" abilities (such as Rexler Brath or Darth Vader {crew}) would destroy you. In these cases it depends on whether those abilities use the same timing as "After defending" (in which case initiative decides), or if (as the Valen Rudor FAQ indicates) "After defending" occurs before "After you perform an attack". (See my thread on the subject for more on that rabbit hole)

Edited by FireSpy

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