Tractor Beam and Obstacles

[Dr Zoidberg 3,200]

Always read the thread mate.

 

As you'll have seen, there are on here arguing that you don't roll for damage.

[WWHSD 9,273]

 

Please tell me that at least one person here submitted the question to FFG?

I have and here is what I received back.

 

Question:

2.  Does the Boba Fett crew card trigger when dealt a crit from an asteroid.  For instance, if Fett is on a ship with Tractor Beam, and Boba Fett's ship pushes an enemy ship onto an asteroid or debris field.  After the enemy ship rolls a crit due to overlapping the obstacle, can I trigger Boba Fett's crew ability?

 

 

Answer:

2. Yes. Boba Fett’s ability is merely based off of the ship suffering a faceup Damage card, the source is unspecified. 

 

As above. The attack, nor the attacker’s ability needs to cause the damage. In fact, the defender might have an ability that they use during the attack that causes them to suffer a faceup damage. (I’m unaware of any of those at this time, but there might already be one).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm going to nit-pick here. The question that you asked isn't relevant to this thread. You are asking if Boba Fett crew can trigger off of damage taken during the time frame of the attack regardless of whether or not the damage was dealt by the attack itself. You aren't asking Wade about how obstacle effects are applied and when. For all we know, Wade isn't even aware that there is any question about whether or not the obstacle can deal damage.

[Dr Zoidberg 3,200]

 

 

Please tell me that at least one person here submitted the question to FFG?

I have and here is what I received back.

 

Question:

2.  Does the Boba Fett crew card trigger when dealt a crit from an asteroid.  For instance, if Fett is on a ship with Tractor Beam, and Boba Fett's ship pushes an enemy ship onto an asteroid or debris field.  After the enemy ship rolls a crit due to overlapping the obstacle, can I trigger Boba Fett's crew ability?

 

 

Answer:

2. Yes. Boba Fett’s ability is merely based off of the ship suffering a faceup Damage card, the source is unspecified. 

 

As above. The attack, nor the attacker’s ability needs to cause the damage. In fact, the defender might have an ability that they use during the attack that causes them to suffer a faceup damage. (I’m unaware of any of those at this time, but there might already be one).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm going to nit-pick here. The question that you asked isn't relevant to this thread. You are asking if Boba Fett crew can trigger off of damage taken during the time frame of the attack regardless of whether or not the damage was dealt by the attack itself. You aren't asking Wade about how obstacle effects are applied and when. For all we know, Wade isn't even aware that there is any question about whether or not the obstacle can deal damage.

 

 

I'm going to nit-pick in return.

 

The question to FFG asked that if a ship with Fett and TB pushes a target onto a rock, does that target rolling a crit due to now being on a rock (resulting in a face up card) cause Fett to trigger?  The answer was yes.  It can therefore be read within FFG's answer that they consider being pushed onto a rock by a TB causes that ship to roll for damage.

 

That is what this thread is about, and I think FFG's response to the above question does help clarify the issue.

[Mozic 174]

To be fair, I created an entirely separate thread to deal specifically with the Boba / Tractor beam case, but the conversations here and in that other thread have been actively cross-polluting each other. That being said, the clarification provided should conclusively satisfy any standing questions that remain in either thread.

Edited March 24, 2016 by Mozic

[Vulf 911]

What monkeys do they have testing the new ships and upgrades that these scenarios never come up in time for the FAQ/errata release?

Edited March 24, 2016 by Vulf

[player1399050 42]

To the defense of the playtesters, Vulf... they may never see the finished rules.  They are testing mechanics, making sure that they work and are fun. The instant these things go live, however, suddenly you go from dozens of playtesters to hundreds of thousands... things always get missed. Some companies (GW) don't seem to care and tell you to roll off. I at least have hope that FFG will fix this.

 

 

 

 

edit:  I'm communicating with Wade from Organized Play.

 

That is pretty clear that FFG INTENDS us to roll for damage when using Tractor Beams (no different than the article).  Just wish the rules were a bit tighter there.

Edited March 24, 2016 by Wizzardx3

[heliodorus04 166]

For god's sake - From out of left field came Keyan Farlander's ability to remove a stress token even if he doesn't roll a focus result, via FAQ.

Nothing made sense about the HLC being able to critical hit on re-roll because via FAQ, FFG decided that a re-roll isn't a 'roll.'

 

Those who think that the TB forces a damage roll on obstacles do not understand how to read, do not understand the basic sequence of play functions, and are clearly choosing to ignore the distinction between the movement phase and the combat phase.  You only check for damage during the activation phase - it's as clear as day.

 

Maybe there will be a FAQ that comes out of left field and says that you have to roll for damage during the combat phase when it involves the Tractor Beam.

 

But if a 1-point, range-three, 3-attack weapon card that can brick me, force me to miss a shot, move me out of arc, and lower my agility also forces me to roll for damage immediately, then X-Wing is over.

Tractor beam is already one of the best functioning weapons in the game, to the point of being better than a TLT in many ways.  It completely breaks from the Star Wars mythology, it's the worst example of 'physics' in the game (and star wars universe in general), it will permanently drive inexperienced players from the game by making it possible to 'learn to fly', and it will further drive the game to more 360-degree weapons.

 

This game is eating itself and its players via constantly over-powered, too-cheap BS that is clearly not play-tested thoroughly.  Oh, and exceptions that don't make sense and prove the fact that play-testing is going to hell.

[VanorDM 11,599]

For god's sake - From out of left field came Keyan Farlander's ability to remove a stress token even if he doesn't roll a focus result, via FAQ.

That's how it was always supposed to work, the FAQ just clarified what we already knew.

Nothing made sense about the HLC being able to critical hit on re-roll because via FAQ, FFG decided that a re-roll isn't a 'roll.'

That's because they are in fact different, you even use different words for what you're doing.

 

You only check for damage during the activation phase - it's as clear as day.

It's as clear as day, because until now there was no way for anyone to end up on a rock, other than in their activation phase. Now there's a new way for it to happen and the rules weren't written to address such a thing.

If you think the TB being able to maybe cause damage by forcing someone over a rock is OP'ed... Well frankly then your understanding disqualifies you from having a reasonable opinion on the matter.

[Mozic 174]

But if a 1-point, range-three, 3-attack weapon card that can brick me, force me to miss a shot, move me out of arc, and lower my agility also forces me to roll for damage immediately, then X-Wing is over.

 

Don't forget that if you're moved onto an asteroid by a higher PS ship you also get denied your opportunity to attack. 

 

He didn't forget, I do not understand how to read.

Edited March 24, 2016 by Mozic

[thespaceinvader 17,568]

For god's sake - From out of left field came Keyan Farlander's ability to remove a stress token even if he doesn't roll a focus result, via FAQ.

Nothing made sense about the HLC being able to critical hit on re-roll because via FAQ, FFG decided that a re-roll isn't a 'roll.'

 

Those who think that the TB forces a damage roll on obstacles do not understand how to read, do not understand the basic sequence of play functions, and are clearly choosing to ignore the distinction between the movement phase and the combat phase.  You only check for damage during the activation phase - it's as clear as day.

 

Maybe there will be a FAQ that comes out of left field and says that you have to roll for damage during the combat phase when it involves the Tractor Beam.

 

But if a 1-point, range-three, 3-attack weapon card that can brick me, force me to miss a shot, move me out of arc, and lower my agility also forces me to roll for damage immediately, then X-Wing is over.

Tractor beam is already one of the best functioning weapons in the game, to the point of being better than a TLT in many ways.  It completely breaks from the Star Wars mythology, it's the worst example of 'physics' in the game (and star wars universe in general), it will permanently drive inexperienced players from the game by making it possible to 'learn to fly', and it will further drive the game to more 360-degree weapons.

 

This game is eating itself and its players via constantly over-powered, too-cheap BS that is clearly not play-tested thoroughly.  Oh, and exceptions that don't make sense and prove the fact that play-testing is going to hell.

Tractor beams are fine.  IF you're a small ship and IF you're behind an asteroid or beside one (and in the former case you'd probably have hit it next turn anyway - and in either case, you knew there was a TB on the board, couldn't you have picked a different manoeuvre to not leave yourself vulnerable to the Beams?) and IF it hits, and IF it's the tactically optimal choice (as opposed to changing a range band, donut holing something, etc), and IF you haven't shot already, it costs you your shot, and has a 50:50 chance of damaging you (or a 1/8 for debris fields).  If you're so concerned about it, bring Debris Fields.  But it's a lot of ifs.  And it's still cost the firer a damaging shot and a very valuable slot, at least until Veterans drops (and even then, they could have used Ion or Flechette for damage).

 

The agility penalty can be nasty, and is definitely the most important effect of the TB, but you have to build and fly your list around it to get the most out of it.  From experience trying it out, the chance of putting people onto rocks for damage is more or less incidental by comparison.

 

But you know, if you want to declare that X Wing is dead because of this... bye.  Can I have your x-wing stuff please, you clearly don't want it any more

[DraconPyrothayan 6,107]

 

You only check for damage during the activation phase - it's as clear as day.

It's as clear as day, because until now there was no way for anyone to end up on a rock, other than in their activation phase. Now there's a new way for it to happen and the rules weren't written to address such a thing.

Or using a free action in the Combat step to Daredevil, which admittedly doesn't come up very often.

[thespaceinvader 17,568]

 

 

You only check for damage during the activation phase - it's as clear as day.

It's as clear as day, because until now there was no way for anyone to end up on a rock, other than in their activation phase. Now there's a new way for it to happen and the rules weren't written to address such a thing.

Or using a free action in the Combat step to Daredevil, which admittedly doesn't come up very often.

 

Or deploying a docked ship when its carrier is destroyed.

Edited March 24, 2016 by thespaceinvader

[WWHSD 9,273]

 

 

 

Please tell me that at least one person here submitted the question to FFG?

I have and here is what I received back.

 

Question:

2.  Does the Boba Fett crew card trigger when dealt a crit from an asteroid.  For instance, if Fett is on a ship with Tractor Beam, and Boba Fett's ship pushes an enemy ship onto an asteroid or debris field.  After the enemy ship rolls a crit due to overlapping the obstacle, can I trigger Boba Fett's crew ability?

 

 

Answer:

2. Yes. Boba Fett’s ability is merely based off of the ship suffering a faceup Damage card, the source is unspecified. 

 

As above. The attack, nor the attacker’s ability needs to cause the damage. In fact, the defender might have an ability that they use during the attack that causes them to suffer a faceup damage. (I’m unaware of any of those at this time, but there might already be one).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm going to nit-pick here. The question that you asked isn't relevant to this thread. You are asking if Boba Fett crew can trigger off of damage taken during the time frame of the attack regardless of whether or not the damage was dealt by the attack itself. You aren't asking Wade about how obstacle effects are applied and when. For all we know, Wade isn't even aware that there is any question about whether or not the obstacle can deal damage.

 

 

I'm going to nit-pick in return.

 

The question to FFG asked that if a ship with Fett and TB pushes a target onto a rock, does that target rolling a crit due to now being on a rock (resulting in a face up card) cause Fett to trigger?  The answer was yes.  It can therefore be read within FFG's answer that they consider being pushed onto a rock by a TB causes that ship to roll for damage.

 

That is what this thread is about, and I think FFG's response to the above question does help clarify the issue.

 

 

It could definitely be read that way, but it's just as likely that they answered the actual question being asked and didn't fact check that all of the setup for the question was accurate.

That answer doesn't really help to determine which effects of the obstacle the ship suffers. Here are the effects for the different obstacles:

 

Asteroid:

Roll for damage

Lose perform action

Can't attack while overlapping

 

Debris: 

Roll for damage

Stress token

 

Does the ship lose its perform action step in the following round? The FAQ on Conner Net makes this seem unlikely. Does it receive a stress token at the next "check for stress"? Or does it get the token immediately, or maybe not at all?  

 

The rules on obstacles really need a rewrite to be able to deal with what the game has become. 

[nigeltastic 3,808]

The rules on obstacles really need a rewrite to be able to deal with what the game has become.

While likely true I think given the errata to tractor beam it's fairly clear what the rules as intended are, tractor beam onto a rock, roll for damage and no shot, tractor beam onto a debris, take 1 stress and roll for critical. The idea that ffg would explicitly errata a card to not do anything differently is a little silly let's be honest.

[WWHSD 9,273]

 

The rules on obstacles really need a rewrite to be able to deal with what the game has become.

While likely true I think given the errata to tractor beam it's fairly clear what the rules as intended are, tractor beam onto a rock, roll for damage and no shot, tractor beam onto a debris, take 1 stress and roll for critical. The idea that ffg would explicitly errata a card to not do anything differently is a little silly let's be honest.

 

 

I totally agree that FFG means for the obstacles to do something when a TB forces a ship over one. I'm just not exactly sure what.

 

A rewrite of the obstacle rules would have prevented the need for the errata (at least that part of the errata) and covered things like Daredevil and ships that are undocking as well.

Edited March 24, 2016 by WWHSD

[timmyz33 22]

Frank Brooks <fbrooks@fantasyflightgames.com>

2:28 PM (58 minutes ago)

 

to me

 

 

 

 

 

Hello Tim,

 

In response to your rules question:

Rules Question:

I read the new FAQ on X-wing miniatures and have, been part of a discussion on the new Tractor Beam section. The card reads: "This is not an action or a maneuver, and can cause the ship to overlap obstacles (but not other ships). The ship suffers the effect of any obstacle it overlaps." This is some dispute due to wording if attack dice are rolled similar to the activation phase(for both asteroid & debris). Because the roll for damage step is performed after, the skip action, and if you are barrel rolled or boosted onto an obstacle from tractor beam, you do not perform these steps. I have a store championship next weekend, and have a tractor beam build, so i was wanting some clarification, if i tractor beam someone onto an obstacle, do the roll for damage, some believe you wouldn't due to how its worded and order or operations. Thank you for you time and input, it is appreciated.

 

The ship suffers the effect of overlapping the obstacle after it finishes the movement. This may cause a ship to suffer damage and/or receive a stress token.

 

Thanks for playing,

Frank Brooks

Associate Creative Content Developer

Fantasy Flight Games

fbrooks@fantasyflightgames.com

The information contained in this electronic message is privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the recipient named above. If the reader of the message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited.

 

 

 

 

 

I sent this in last week after reading and finally got a response, 

[Dr Zoidberg 3,200]

Now standing by for people to argue that doesn't make things any clearer....

[VanorDM 11,599]

Nope, no question there. Ship takes damage if it overlaps an obstacle. Which is what many of us assumed would be the ruling adventually.

[Hobojebus 11,341]

Enable smug mode.

[GrimmyV 7,421]

Just reinforces the fact that the FAQ needed to clearly define what 'obstacle effects' are. Perhaps a glossary is needed.

And thanks Frank for being the voice of God. You might even be right 50% of the time.

[ZealuxMyr 1,944]

Just reinforces the fact that the FAQ needed to clearly define what 'obstacle effects' are. Perhaps a glossary is needed.

And thanks Frank for being the voice of God. You might even be right 50% of the time.

 

[skotothalamos 3,652]

1) If you land on an obstacle, you roll for damage and either take a stress or skip your perform action step and can't fire, depending on the obstacle type.

 

2) If a Tractor Beam lands you on an obstacle, see 1.

 

How is this difficult?

[digitalbusker 2,248]

It's difficult because in the current rules, in what I'm guessing is an attempt to make it clear that a full-health X-Wing with R2-D2 can't green into a rock, take a damage, and then recover the shield they just lost, the obstacle rules are very specific about the timing of their effects, to the point of referencing things that don't always happen in all the situations in which you might wind up overlapping an obstacle.

We had a nice little window where none of the core rules only worked because we all agreed to pretend they worked, but it's closed again.

This is fine by me, btw. No system of rules is perfect.

Edited March 26, 2016 by digitalbusker

[Vulf 911]

Nope, no question there. Ship takes damage if it overlaps an obstacle. Which is what many of us assumed would be the ruling adventually.

 

Do you also skip your perform action step the next turn?

It is likely you would anyway if your maneuver template was going to overlap, but if the tractor barrel rolls you backwards so only your rear end is on the obstacle, you probably thought you could get away without losing an action.

 

Tractors beams are OP as **** now.

Debris Tokens now cause 2 damage rolls and 2 stress tokens. Possibly skipping 2 turns worth of actions if the ship used push the limit.

Asteroids are 2 chances at auto damage.

 

High pilot skill cannon ships are going to be insanity.

Ten Numb with Veteran instincts and Tractor Beam is only 33 points. And has a chance to be an auto hit. 3 more points for mercenary copilot.

Eadren Vrill with a Tractor beam and Tactician isn't half bad. Only a point more than Flechette Cannon Vrill.

 

And with the other recent rulings with Boba Fett crew...

Rexler Brath is about to get a lot more play.

Edited March 26, 2016 by Vulf

[GrimmyV 7,421]

If only the FAQ had included the words 'as if the ship had performed a maneuver' after that silly bit about suffering the 'effects' of the obstacle. How hard would that have been?! COME ON! Clarity, it's not that hard.

Btw I'm all for OP TBs, a one point upgrade that slings small ships into rocks for up to two chances for damage (and no return fire!) AND it reduces ability? Please, that's worth at least 2 points, maybe 3! Remember to bring the big rocks!

Edited March 27, 2016 by GrimmyV