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I swung by to see if FFG Had anything new posted about the game and to my dissapointment, I only find news on the Co-Op App. So already this thing is taking precedence over the real game, which sadly was one of my biggest concerns when they initially announced this. I really want news on "Chains of Rust" dammit. 

 

But then I read the article on it anyway, because why not, I was still intrigued. What I took from it wasn't positive at all.

 

First, let's just get this straight: All this app is, is an updated electronic version of the Co-Op system they've already introduced. Morale and Peril are exactly how Fate and Doom works. If you've experienced Co-Ops, you'll know that they challenge you to make quick decisions and to get through the encounters as quickly as possible. They are challenging and very hard to complete fully. On a system where the heroes are going to be pressed for time every single quest, that may not be the most fun experience.

 

But the real kicker- and perhaps the most unforgivable offense- is changing the way the game's core design by alternating Hero and Monster activations. That's just No. The initial design of Descent is to have the heroes work together as a team, deciding when and where to spend actions at any given point. The heroes must establish a turn order, decide who moves and attacks, what kinds of abilities they need to use effectively. Alternating activations may give the game a more "action" oriented feel, but it's going to take away from the game's best feature- using actual strategy. And in a situation where the heroes are already pressed for time and take penalties for being KOed, I really don't see this as being fun at all.

 

It's like someone took over Descent and said, "hey, I really don't like how this game is designed. I know let's change some things because obviously it worked, but I can make it work better." B.S.

 

I'm glad some people like it, some are obviously being drawn back into the game with this app. But let's not sugarcoat it for what it is: Electronic Co-Op versions that are trying to change how this game is played.  

 

  I just want to say I'm looking forward to the alternating order as my group usually takes a long time going over all the tactics and coordination we are all going to do on our turns. It goes from each of us deciding what we are going to do with our Chars to this long planning event that takes quite a long time and in the process takes away my own freedom to control my char as the others in the group all decide what your best move is.

  I understand your point of view and how this is hurting the tactical synergies but I don't feel its that much of a change. Also if this change allows for more control over my own char as more things cant be planned for, the better IMO. Its not going to suddenly have no tactics. SWIA has plenty of tactical play. You can still have tactics with out having to figure it out all at once. Even with the alternating order I'm sure my group is still going to try and min/max the crap out of it regardless. I still feel this change is positive for the game as a whole and hey there is still the pod co-op's that use the original style of turn order you can play if you prefer it.

  They can just program an option to select the turn order your group prefers. Problem solved. Everyone is happy then.

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Again, having played both systems, I argue that the SW:IA model is actually a lot more difficult as the game evolves from action to action.  It also really helps prevent games from snowballing one way or the other.  There is obviously a reason that they chose the newer, more improved system for this app.  Think of it as an evolution from Red Rover to Chess.

Edited by FrogTrigger

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Again, having played both systems, I argue that the SW:IA model is actually a lot more difficult as the game evolves from action to action.  It also really helps prevent games from snowballing one way or the other.  There is obviously a reason that they chose the newer, more improved system for this app.  Think of it as an evolution from Red Rover to Chess.

 

I have, for the most part, refrained from this on-going discussion.  I did note in an earlier post that I was not in favor of alternating turns.

 

I must point out, however, that your comparison (SW:IA v D2e), and reasoning above is fallacious.  SW:IA was designed from the ground up to play as it does.  D2e was not.

 

Now, to be fair, the app will probably (read: hopefully) be designed in such a way that the presentation of rooms, monsters, LTs, search tokens, etc. will take into account that you will alternate turns, rather than D2e's normal mode.  Even then, however, there is no guarantee that it will be balanced, have the same flavor and play of the original game.

 

For that reason, for you to state that this is the reason that they chose the newer, more improved system for the app is simply illogical and fallacious on its face.  Who says that it is improved?  Who says that it is a better system?

 

Again, as I stated in a prior post, I will reserve judgement until I have the opportunity to play with the app, and see what kind of challenge and game system it presents.  I am willing to wager, however, that it will take multiple iterations of the app (future updates) before they get it as good as it can be - and even then, when it is as good as it can be, who knows if it will be as good as D2e currently is with a physical OL and heroes.

Edited by any2cards

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I say it's improved, and they chose it.  There for I am right.

 

:blink:

 

lol, could be right ;)

 

But I think they made that change so the OL stands a change against better players, because they can't plan as much that way.

Or because they wanted to shorten the planing (They did say something, like a faster/smoother gameplay, right?)

 

And keep in mind: They chose many different kind of turn systems and game features for different games... if one was really kind of superior they would use it for every game they make. Also the App is supposed to be a "new DIFFERENT and FASTER way to play the game"... they never said something about better (I haven't noticed it at least).

 

I also don't think they will change it for the standart campaigns... because in some Quests from "Heir of blood" for example the OL has like 9 different monster groups... if some of these would activate between 2 players it would make the planing of the heroes a complete mess ...like the OL sometimes can't really guess what some heros do (In my group some pretty strange tactics get used by one or two heros to win).

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Now, to be fair, the app will probably (read: hopefully) be designed in such a way that the presentation of rooms, monsters, LTs, search tokens, etc. will take into account that you will alternate turns, rather than D2e's normal mode.  Even then, however, there is no guarantee that it will be balanced, have the same flavor and play of the original game.

 

Right. Of course. That's the whole point. The app is designed for alternating turns and gameplay will be balanced for alternating turns. Quite obviously. Not sure why there is concern being stated in that regard.

 

To your second statement: who promised it would have the same flavor and play as the original game? FFG hasn't said that. They've stated quite the opposite in fact: "...offers a revolutionary new way to experience the vibrant world of Terrinoth". By definition and, more importantly FFGs own admittance, it will have a flavor and play-style all it's own. This is an entirely new mode of play retrofitted onto existing game components. It in no way alters the way you currently play the game with an OL or the currently available PoD co-op products. Nor has there been any hint that this will bleed into the current core game rules, so I'm not sure where these notions are coming from beyond pure paranoia. They are effectively giving us an all new (and completely optional) set of rules to gripe about to allow for a new way to play with the cool toys in our toy boxes. I'm sure they aren't investing in this app on a lark. The blood, sweat, and tears of intelligent game designers will have been put into this project. Obviously. And it's true: it's an app, so they can tweak and make fixes as needed on the fly. This isn't any different than the errata released for the print game, it's just closer to real-time updating.

 

Furthermore, just because D2E wasn't designed from the ground up to work with alternating turns doesn't mean that a smart game designer can't retrofit a great alternating turn system onto current components, tweaking rules as needed to get the desired balance. They've made plenty of major tweaks with the core game to correct balance issues (two-player extra attack action for example). It is within the realm of possibility for this to be balanced, else I'm sure the project would have been scrapped. The core game wasn't designed from the ground up for the PoD co-ops either, and they pulled that off. They've already shown they can do something like this. They are just taking it to the next level. All these new branching paths for the game can exist in harmony without adversely affecting each other. What is the big deal here folks?

Edited by cdj0902

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What is the big deal here folks?

 

I wish to only speak for myself here, but the "big deal" is that I enjoy the game the way it is ... not the way FFG describes the game will play with the app.  I say this, however, without having played with the app as of yet.  I want to give it a go first, before making a final decision.

 

Now, you, and many others will say, "... fine, don't play with the app".  And I agree.  We will have that option.  For existing content.

 

The issue for many who feel as I do, however, is a concern that the following is true:

 

ALL FUTURE CONTENT WILL ONLY BE DEVELOPED DIGITALLY FOR THE APP

 

No one from FFG has made this statement.  We don't know if it is true or not.  If not, and if FFG continues to develop expansions for the game, all well and good.  Both sides of this "issue" remain happy.  If, however, the game does not continue to be developed as it has in the past, including physical expansions both large and small, but instead just has digital content made for the use of the app, then I, and many others like me, will be decidedly unhappy.  This is especially true for those of us who have purchased each and every expansion for this game, and thus have a substantial investment in the game.

 

Hopefully I have made my position clear.  I am happy for those that like the prospects of the app ... I am also pleased by it.  I just don't want to simultaneously lose new content for the way the game currently plays.

 

*** The Big Deal *** -- Quite frankly, compared to many issues facing all of us in our world today, this doesn't even qualify as a blip on the radar of real world issues.   :P

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I don't think FFG will stop making the expansion boxes....

I think they know their customers and most of us don't like the way the digital board games are played. That's the reason we bought a game like Descent, which (with it's various expansions) isn't really on the cheap side as far as board games go. So I don't think they will only make app content in the future. (I still kind of guess we will see new content for the app being released more often than physical expansions, because they are probably cheaper to produce.

 

Also why would they make the game Descent the same as a other game like this star wars game everyone sais they already produce? It would make no sense, because that would mean the games are so similiar the people playing it wouldn't buy both. They would compete against each other and "steal" eachothers customers.

 

As you can't use the expansions from one game for the other one... why would "normal" people buy both, if they are almost the same game? My guess would be most people wouldn't, because of all the money each expansion costs.But if they are played differently (like they are now) some people would still buy both games. I at least, will never buy a "different skin" for a board game in the price class of Descent 2nd edition + all/most expansions. ;)

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I am willing to say, without a doubt, that FFG has some very good reasons for the new turn system. I would even dare to say that they...playtested it :o

 

Now that I am already making some wild speculations: in the hypothetical case that FFG is making some permanent, game-changing....changes to Descent, I would say that FFG would make another game unrelated to Descent. Because why rob people of money only once, when you can do it twice? Or thrice if they like Star Wars.

Edited by Ceasarsalad101

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I am willing to say, without a doubt, that FFG has some very good reasons for the new turn system. I would even dare to say that they...playtested it :o

Wha... What are you talking about? Games aren't "playtested"... they apear in their complete form and are brought to the game developers through bad dreams in which the Overlord commands them how to tell his story.

....The nerve of some people ;)

 

Now that I am already making some wild speculations: in the hypothetical case that FFG is making some permanent, game-changing....changes to Descent, I would say that FFG would make another game unrelated to Descent. Because why rob people of money only once, when you can do it twice? Or thrice if they like Star Wars.

From the view of a company (which some people say FFG is) that would be true I guess. That would mean IF they ever made a change for the "normal game" they would do so rather with a 3rd edition or a completely new game. And I don't think that's planed for the next few years, not with the companion app being developed. ^_^

Edited by Kaisho

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No one from FFG has made this statement.  We don't know if it is true or not. 

 

 

Well there you go. My point exactly. This is pure paranoia and implied distrust of the developer. There is zero data to justify these fears. So what is the big deal?

 

<wonders if there is a chill-pill emoticon>

Edited by cdj0902

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Also why would they make the game Descent the same as a other game like this star wars game everyone sais they already produce? It would make no sense, because that would mean the games are so similiar the people playing it wouldn't buy both. They would compete against each other and "steal" eachothers customers.

 

As you can't use the expansions from one game for the other one... why would "normal" people buy both, if they are almost the same game? My guess would be most people wouldn't, because of all the money each expansion costs.But if they are played differently (like they are now) some people would still buy both games. I at least, will never buy a "different skin" for a board game in the price class of Descent 2nd edition + all/most expansions. ;)

 

Even if they both used the same system, just re-skinned for fantasy or SW as appropriate, I'd still own both. I suspect others would too. Sometimes I want to shoot lasers. Sometimes I want to cast spells. Plenty of RPGs are based on similar rules systems that play out actions in the exact same way but have completely different flavors. Many people collect games that use these similar systems for that very reason: they don't have to relearn everything from the ground up and can make the switch between systems easily as their mood suits them.

Edited by cdj0902

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The best salespoint of most products in the industry: "collect them all".

Well... To be honest, nothing's wrong with that. ;-)

On another note:

I hope FFG will make a new announcement for the app soon. I kinda check their website like crazy and I suspect people think I am crazy, always stareing at the same website and pressing F5.

Edited by Kaisho

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I am liking the app the more I see of it. Having played the co-op POD stuff, I can honestly say I prefer those to the regular game because or OL players (we take turns playing the OL) are frequently stuck in the DM mentality from our D&D games. To play the OL right, you need to try your absolute best to murder everyone all the time with no holds barred while doing everything you can to have your minions accomplish their goals as quickly as possible. The usual OL player (not counting me) in my group wants to guide the players instead of treating them as the enemy. While I can understand the willingness to hold back to try advance the game in a D&D setting, it simply doesn't fit this playstyle at all and often has the players walking away feeling unchallenged and nobody really enjoying the OL role as much as they should.

 

The co-op games fixed that issue completely and it was just straight up adventuring.  Having an app that simulates the co-op over full on campaigns? That is a game changer and will see Descent hit my table far more frequently. I don't see FFG stopping their creation of Descent physical products though because those things still sell and why wouldn't they want to make more money. Although, to be totally honest, the thing I want them to make the most in terms of a new Descent project is not an expansion at all. It would be a storage box, officially made that has a good layout and easy storage for every single thing possibly made up to this point. Go awesome with it and make it look like a legit treasure chest or something and, as long as the price point was less than $100, I would buy that thing so fast.

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Now, to be fair, the app will probably (read: hopefully) be designed in such a way that the presentation of rooms, monsters, LTs, search tokens, etc. will take into account that you will alternate turns, rather than D2e's normal mode.  Even then, however, there is no guarantee that it will be balanced, have the same flavor and play of the original game.

 

Right. Of course. That's the whole point. The app is designed for alternating turns and gameplay will be balanced for alternating turns. Quite obviously. Not sure why there is concern being stated in that regard.

 

To your second statement: who promised it would have the same flavor and play as the original game? FFG hasn't said that. They've stated quite the opposite in fact: "...offers a revolutionary new way to experience the vibrant world of Terrinoth". By definition and, more importantly FFGs own admittance, it will have a flavor and play-style all it's own. This is an entirely new mode of play retrofitted onto existing game components. It in no way alters the way you currently play the game with an OL or the currently available PoD co-op products. Nor has there been any hint that this will bleed into the current core game rules, so I'm not sure where these notions are coming from beyond pure paranoia. They are effectively giving us an all new (and completely optional) set of rules to gripe about to allow for a new way to play with the cool toys in our toy boxes. I'm sure they aren't investing in this app on a lark. The blood, sweat, and tears of intelligent game designers will have been put into this project. Obviously. And it's true: it's an app, so they can tweak and make fixes as needed on the fly. This isn't any different than the errata released for the print game, it's just closer to real-time updating.

 

Furthermore, just because D2E wasn't designed from the ground up to work with alternating turns doesn't mean that a smart game designer can't retrofit a great alternating turn system onto current components, tweaking rules as needed to get the desired balance. They've made plenty of major tweaks with the core game to correct balance issues (two-player extra attack action for example). It is within the realm of possibility for this to be balanced, else I'm sure the project would have been scrapped. The core game wasn't designed from the ground up for the PoD co-ops either, and they pulled that off. They've already shown they can do something like this. They are just taking it to the next level. All these new branching paths for the game can exist in harmony without adversely affecting each other. What is the big deal here folks?

 

It sounds as if what you're saying simply is that we should all just shut up and be happy that FFG is making new stuff for us. 

 

But see, when you change already existing core game mechanics and rules, that's where people start having problems. For me, it is the perception that this game has gone through too many  rule changes as of late. So with a radical new change like this, there's a point where someone must draw the line and ask, what the hell was so wrong with the original rules? Were they really so broken that they require all these new changes? The Co-OPs worked for the most part right, so if you're going with that format, why really change it?

 

With the radical change to the way the core game mechanics work then, you can just simply say that Road to Legend Descent and Tabletop Descent are two separate games that use the same base components. You can't really teach new players how to play regular Descent with this app because of how differently Road to Legend will be played and vice versa. If new players buy the Core Game and want to also implement Road to Legend, they'll have to learn two different play styles if they want to also try traditional Descent. Why make it that confusing and convoluted?

 

Obviously, there has to be some reasoning somewhere.

 

Question to FFG: Since you've made the Shadow Rune campaign obsolete by placing Heirs of Blood in the Core Box, why haven't you worked on a new updated Campaign Book for it and released it so new players could have access to it?  

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Obviously, there has to be some reasoning somewhere.

 

Question to FFG: Since you've made the Shadow Rune campaign obsolete by placing Heirs of Blood in the Core Box, why haven't you worked on a new updated Campaign Book for it and released it so new players could have access to it?  

Well if a quest is really unbalanced and you have the feeling what ever you do with it, it only gets worse you can only make a new campaign. Also I think they decided to use the Heirs of Blood for the reprint, because it is kinda better. The maps are bigger, the quest goals are often better.

 

To be honest the story is almost nonexistant in Shadow Rune compared to Heirs of blood, so if they change that also (they would have to do that anyway for new quest goals) the campaign would be a total different one.

 

IF they make the shadow rune campaign as a new Campaign Book, they would have to make a bigger story like the first couple of pages in the book from Heirs of Blood (everyone would complain otherwise why they did it for Heirs of Blood and not for the new campaign) change the rules of almost all quests.

(Some people could argument then "why do we not have access to the original Shadow Rune campaign?)

I would buy such a "updated campaign Book" and would like to see it.

 

Though as "Heirs of Blood" only uses the core game (which it had, because otherwise they couldn't use it as the standard campaign for the core game)

I would like to see a Shadow Rune campaign using a few other expansions.  ;)

 

Additional: I reread my post but no matter how I try to write it, it sounds somehow like I want to pick a fight with you Omnislash024, which I don't.

I just can't express myself better in english. :unsure:

 

Edit: I hope it sounds better now

Edited by Kaisho

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Kiasho, I understand completely. There's nothing wrong with wanting to share a viewpoint. The whole Shadow Rune/Heirs of Blood topic should probably be tabled for another topic really, but it's just a highlight of my frustrations with FFG as of late. I really don't get why they couldn't have just updated Shadow Rune, published it in a hard bound campaign book and released it alongside new copies of the Core game (which contains Heirs of Blood,) 

 

There's also the fact that despite everything, Road to Legend has attracted more players to the Descent community as of late, so I do think of that as a good thing. I'm just highlighting some extremely viable issues that people may find to be a problem. 

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Is FFG open for suggestions for new content? Maybe if enough people show interest in an updated version of the Shadow Rune campaign they will make it?

(I mean, every owner of the new version will probably want to play the Shadow rune campaign.... it's the "original one" after all.)

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Now, to be fair, the app will probably (read: hopefully) be designed in such a way that the presentation of rooms, monsters, LTs, search tokens, etc. will take into account that you will alternate turns, rather than D2e's normal mode.  Even then, however, there is no guarantee that it will be balanced, have the same flavor and play of the original game.

 

Right. Of course. That's the whole point. The app is designed for alternating turns and gameplay will be balanced for alternating turns. Quite obviously. Not sure why there is concern being stated in that regard.

 

To your second statement: who promised it would have the same flavor and play as the original game? FFG hasn't said that. They've stated quite the opposite in fact: "...offers a revolutionary new way to experience the vibrant world of Terrinoth". 

 

By definition and, more importantly FFGs own admittance, it will have a flavor and play-style all it's own. This is an entirely new mode of play retrofitted onto existing game components. It in no way alters the way you currently play the game with an OL or the currently available PoD co-op products. Nor has there been any hint that this will bleed into the current core game rules, so I'm not sure where these notions are coming from beyond pure paranoia. They are effectively giving us an all new (and completely optional) set of rules to gripe about to allow for a new way to play with the cool toys in our toy boxes. I'm sure they aren't investing in this app on a lark. The blood, sweat, and tears of intelligent game designers will have been put into this project. Obviously. And it's true: it's an app, so they can tweak and make fixes as needed on the fly. This isn't any different than the errata released for the print game, it's just closer to real-time updating.

 

Furthermore, just because D2E wasn't designed from the ground up to work with alternating turns doesn't mean that a smart game designer can't retrofit a great alternating turn system onto current components, tweaking rules as needed to get the desired balance. They've made plenty of major tweaks with the core game to correct balance issues (two-player extra attack action for example). It is within the realm of possibility for this to be balanced, else I'm sure the project would have been scrapped. The core game wasn't designed from the ground up for the PoD co-ops either, and they pulled that off. They've already shown they can do something like this. They are just taking it to the next level. All these new branching paths for the game can exist in harmony without adversely affecting each other. What is the big deal here folks?

 

"It sounds as if what you're saying simply is that we should all just shut up and be happy that FFG is making new stuff for us. 

 

But see, when you change already existing core game mechanics and rules, that's where people start having problems. For me, it is the perception that this game has gone through too many  rule changes as of late. So with a radical new change like this, there's a point where someone must draw the line and ask, what the hell was so wrong with the original rules? Were they really so broken that they require all these new changes? The Co-OPs worked for the most part right, so if you're going with that format, why really change it?

 

With the radical change to the way the core game mechanics work then, you can just simply say that Road to Legend Descent and Tabletop Descent are two separate games that use the same base components. You can't really teach new players how to play regular Descent with this app because of how differently Road to Legend will be played and vice versa. If new players buy the Core Game and want to also implement Road to Legend, they'll have to learn two different play styles if they want to also try traditional Descent. Why make it that confusing and convoluted?

 

Obviously, there has to be some reasoning somewhere.

 

Question to FFG: Since you've made the Shadow Rune campaign obsolete by placing Heirs of Blood in the Core Box, why haven't you worked on a new updated Campaign Book for it and released it so new players could have access to it?"

 

End of Omnislashe024's quote.

 

The alternating turn system is by itself a completely valid system. It has no inherent shortcomings, is an apple better than a pear? I like them both! Maybe FFG isn't fixing something but merely offering a and I quote "revolutionary new way to experience the vibrant world of Terrinoth." That is just terrific! We can play Decent with two of the three possible ways (the other being a 'speed' based system). What is not to like? There is not a single indication that the game will suffer from this.

 

Edit: Something went wrong with the quotations, pardon me.

Edited by Ceasarsalad101

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Shadow Rune: as I do not own D2E, if the game would convince me to buy everything, I would like to get everything. Probably right now there is no need for it (most people does have that campaign), but soon with new players (I hope me too), they would have to release it. Catch 'Em All!

 

Alternate turns: we just need more info from FFG - why they decided to go that way with app.

Edited by Mortalo

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Geez, with people freaking out with one change? I remember this hysterical reaction on the original release of Road to Legend for the first Descent ... So nostalgic :rolleyes: (and at that time , they really changed the game, for the better ). We are speaking on a gameplay variant  that not have any impact on the core game.

 

Shadow Rune: as I do not own D2E, if the game would convince me to buy everything, I would like to get everything. Probably right now there is no need for it (most people does have that campaign), but soon with new players (I hope me too), they would have to release it. Catch 'Em All!

 

Alternate turns: we just need more info from FFG - why they decided to go that way with app.

 
 
In my humble opinion, the reason for the change in activation order is quite simple, they prevent the wipe of an entire group of monsters without any reaction (my main complaint in some gaming scenarios) and create at the same time, pressure on the players, throwing a threat that needs to be addressed immediately. I think, from the gameplay perpective, it's a much better approach for the co-op mode.

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@kraisto: I always thought the problem with the instantly killed monster groups was a problem for the OL vs. Heros campaigns... Does that happen in the Co-op campaigns too? (Most people seem to say they are somewhat challengeing either way) But if they only wanted to achieve that, they could let the monsters activate when they are set on the map in the heros turn (there are quests with this mechanic afterall). Or they could be positioned so that the heros don't reach them in one turn...

 

Either way I will probably play with the App in my group.... even if it's just to feel how it is to play a hero for a longer time than just one quest ;)

Although for someone like me who loves to play as the OL a "automatic hero App" would be better... but will probably never be made... Heros are to complex for an App I guess. -_-

Edited by Kaisho

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