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onetruerebel

Blast and doors question

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We had a situation arise today.

If your attack has blast and targets a door, specifically targetign one of the doors squares, since technically the door occupies a space adjacent to the targeted square, does it take blast damage?

And can you point to a rule to help clarify? Thanks!

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If the primary target is a door, I would rule that you cannot also Blast that same door for extra damage. I can't think of a specific rule about it, but I would consider it analogous to attacking a Large figure (which also occupies more than one space), and the rules do say explicitly that you cannot shoot a Large figure in one space and Blast that same figure in another of its spaces.

 

However, if you're targeting a figure standing adjacent to the door, then yes you could Blast the door. Likewise if you're targeting the door, you could Blast a figure standing adjacent to the door. Just remember that only the spaces which share an edge with a door are adjacent to the door, even though the door is also considered to occupy those spaces.

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But in the rules it's quite specific that massive figures don't take damage from blast, but the rule specifies figures, it says nothing about objects. Its complicated since doors are the only multi space object in the game.

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But in the rules it's quite specific that massive figures don't take damage from blast, but the rule specifies figures, it says nothing about objects. Its complicated since doors are the only multi space object in the game.

Maybe I missed it, but I could not find anything in the rules that says massive figures are unaffected by blast. Could you cite the reference?

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There are no instances in this game where blast affects the original target, size matters not. Nothing is adjacent to itself.

Blast says "each figure and object adjacent to the target space suffers (damage) equal to the Blast value".

 

The check is Adjacent [Yes/No], [Yes]==Apply Blast (Damage)
 

If the target is a door, it does not take blast (it is not adjacent to itself).

If the original target is adjacent, then the door take Blast X once.

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But in the rules it's quite specific that massive figures don't take damage from blast, but the rule specifies figures, it says nothing about objects. Its complicated since doors are the only multi space object in the game.

Maybe I missed it, but I could not find anything in the rules that says massive figures are unaffected by blast. Could you cite the reference?

 

I'm guessing OneTrueRebel meant this:

 

"Blast", RRG, Page 7:

 

If the target is a large figure, Blast only affects figures adjacent to the targeted space and does not affect the target figure.

 

Meaning the large figure cannot be affected by Blast if it was the original target.

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But in the rules it's quite specific that massive figures don't take damage from blast, but the rule specifies figures, it says nothing about objects. Its complicated since doors are the only multi space object in the game.

Maybe I missed it, but I could not find anything in the rules that says massive figures are unaffected by blast. Could you cite the reference?

 

I'm guessing OneTrueRebel meant this:

 

"Blast", RRG, Page 7:

 

If the target is a large figure, Blast only affects figures adjacent to the targeted space and does not affect the target figure.

 

Meaning the large figure cannot be affected by Blast if it was the original target.

 

Perhaps, but correct me if I'm wrong. If a massive figure is adjacent to the targeted space it should still take blast damage as long as the targeted space is not the massive figure itself.

Edited by Varasin

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Any figure that is adjacent to the targeted figure (or targeted space in the case of a large target) will take blast X. This never includes the original target.

If you had a bantha adjacent to an AT-ST:

 

[_][_][_][_][_]
[_][A][A]
[_][A][A]
[_][A][A]
[_][_][_][_][_]

 

The red space is the targeted space (yes, this is legal targeting). "A" is the AT-ST, "B" is the Bantha.

The attack has Blast 1.

The AT-ST takes damage equal to the original attack and is unaffected by Blast 1. The Bantha, even though it occupies 3 adjacent spaces to the target, still only takes 1 point of damage from Blast 1.
 

All we are looking at is "adjacent". There is no such thing as "extra adjacent", or "super adjacent", or "hyper adjacent", and the number of adjacent spaces is irrelevant beyond "1".

Edited by Fizz

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Any figure that is adjacent to the targeted figure (or targeted space in the case of a large target) will take blast X. This never includes the original target.

If you had a bantha adjacent to an AT-ST:

 

[_][_][_][_][_]

[_][A][A]

[_][A][A]

[_][A][A]

[_][_][_][_][_]

 

The red space is the targeted space (yes, this is legal targeting). "A" is the AT-ST, "B" is the Bantha.

The attack has Blast 1.

The AT-ST takes damage equal to the original attack and is unaffected by Blast 1. The Bantha, even though it occupies 3 adjacent spaces to the target, still only takes 1 point of damage from Blast 1.

 

All we are looking at is "adjacent". There is no such thing as "extra adjacent", or "super adjacent", or "hyper adjacent", and the number of adjacent spaces is irrelevant beyond "1".

Agreed, I was just making the point that a massive figure is not completely unaffected by blast, as was implied in OneTrueRebels post.

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Hey Everyone, thanks for all of the feedback!

So I dont want to sound hardheaded (because I actually agree with you...thematically, blasting the target doesn't make sense) but the rules as written don't seem clear with doors.

I looked up adjacent, and it says a figure can't be adjacent to itself. It doesn't specify objects.

The problem lies in the fact that doors are the onle object that take up more than one square.

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It comes down to you and your playgroup. I think we've established that there is no rule that *explicitly* states how Blast interacts with doors, but the closest analogue is the rule for Large figures which very clearly states that Blast does not apply to the target of the attack, even if the target occupies multiple spaces.

 

So if you really want to rules lawyer it, technically, the rules-as-written are ambiguous on this point.

 

But in terms of rules-as-intended, I see absolutely no argument for allowing an attack on a door to also Blast that same door. It's a silly technicality that would absolutely not fly among my playgroup. But your group's sensibilities may differ.

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Interesting topic, here's another angle of looking at it:

 

The door doesn’t actually occupy any spaces

 

You can have figures on either side of the door so in theory the door doesn’t actually occupy any spaces.

 

With that in mind, blast deals damage to figures (or potentially objects) that occupy adjacent spaces, and seeing as it is not in any spaces to begin with it can't suffer blast damage, though I'm guessing it prevents figures on the opposite side of a closed door from taking blast damage? I'm somewhat new to the game so I haven't quite committed all the rules to memory yet but it would make sense for it to work this way.

 

For reference here is the sections of doors in the RRG:

 

Doors
Doors are represented by stand-up tokens placed on the map.
Each mission specifies where doors are placed.
• Figures cannot move, trace line of sight, or count spaces through doors.
• A figure can interact with a door to open it; the player removes the door token from the map.
• If an effect closes a door, place a door token on the map as shown on the mission’s map. Figures cannot voluntarily close doors.
• If a large figure occupies spaces on both sides of a door when it closes, that figure is pushed to the closest empty space (see “Push” on page 21).
• The spaces that share an edge with a door are the only spaces that are considered to be adjacent to that door.
• Some missions specify that certain doors are locked.
Locked doors cannot be opened except as specified in the mission rules.

Edited by Mace Windu

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Ah, but you are mistaken. For the purpose of drawing lines of fire to the door, it is counted as occupying all four spaces (the two on either side of the door). When it comes to drawing lines of fire *past the door, it only blocks as if it were a wall *between those four squares. When it comes to blast targeting the door, it blocks the effect from hitting figures on the other side, even though the door itself is being targeted (the explosion radiates from the targeted square, not from the line the door is actually standing on). When it comes to striking a door with a melee weapon, you have to be in one of the four squares the door actually occupies to be adjacent to the door, even though in EVERY OTHER INSTANCE EVER diagonal squares are adjacent.

Am I missing anything? Is everyone confused enough already?

Friggin doors...

Edited by Sam Tomahawk

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Also check the FAQ/Errata for the changes to doors.

 

Also read the thread I posted earlier.

 

1) The only spaces adjacent to the door are the spaces sharing an edge with the door. This rule tells how the abilities that require adjacency work. (Includes Blast and Cleave. The door does not have to occupy a space to be adjacent to the targeted space.)

 

2) A door between spaces blocks their adjacency. (Blast stops at the door.)

 

3) The door occupies an empty space it shares an edge with for the purposes of determining line of sight and the required accuracy to the door (and a few mission effects that use "within X spaces"). When you attack, you always target a space (otherwise Blast and Cleave would have no reference point to work with).

 

4) If you target a door, you target a space the door occupies and resolve Blast according to the space you targeted. After the attack resolves, Blast is performed. The door does not get blast damage because it was the target of the attack. If the door is destroyed in the attack, it no longer blocks adjacency, and figures previously on the other side of the door may be adjacent to the targeted space and such figures receive Blast damage from the attack.

 

5) If you target a figure adjacent to the door, you resolve Blast according to the space you targeted. If that space is adjacent to the door, the door is also adjacent to the space, and the door receives Blast damage (once, because it is adjacent to the target space, it is not occupying spaces for the purposes of Blast and Cleave). If the door is destroyed by the Blast, it no longer blocks adjacency, and figures previously on the other side of the door may now be adjacent to the targeted space and such figures receive Blast damage from the attack.

 

Of course, the target needs to suffer damage from the attack (step 7) for the Blast or Cleave to do anything.

 

6) Reach is defined to work with doors in the Errata. You need to be either in the adjacent spaces or adjacent to the adjacent spaces. (This is the one Sam missed.)

Edited by a1bert

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So if I am standing on the two spaces that share the line the door is on, I am blocking LOS to the door right?  They can't just choose to target the space I am standing on, effectively targeting the door?

 

This came up for the first time with my group last night, someone questioned my ability to block LOS.  I explained that you are targeting the door and I am standing in front of it, they said no you are standing on the space and I can target the space same as if it was an object you were standing on top of.  This made me draw pause.  We just glazed over it as I said well you could instead attack me and blast the door to finish it off, to which he did.  But if it comes up again I definitely need a concrete answer.

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So if I am standing on the two spaces that share the line the door is on, I am blocking LOS to the door right?

 

I would say yes. Per the FAQ:

 

"When attacking a door, using an ability that affects a door, or counting spaces to a door, the door is considered to be occupying each empty space with which it shares an edge."

 

 

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So if I am standing on the two spaces that share the line the door is on, I am blocking LOS to the door right?

 

I would say yes. Per the FAQ:

 

"When attacking a door, using an ability that affects a door, or counting spaces to a door, the door is considered to be occupying each empty space with which it shares an edge."

Can you attack a terminal that has a figure on it? That would be the closest thing, I think.

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Can you attack a terminal that has a figure on it? That would be the closest thing, I think.

The RRG references this specifically.

 

If a figure is in the same space as the token, the figure and token are targeted for attacks independently. Neither the figure nor the token block line of sight to the other.

Doors were a bit different and the FAQ addressed the issues that FrogTrigger brought up specifically. Before the FAQ I think a literal interpretation of the rules would suggest that you could NOT block LOS to doors by standing on the squares adjacent to the edge. But if you were in something like a 2-tile-wide hallway, you could block LOS by standing one space in front of the door, which was kind of silly.

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Yes, that's correct. With the original rules the figures needed to be one space away from the door to block LoS. The current door rules makes it impossible to target a door if neither space that share an edge with the door (the adjacent spaces) is empty.

 

(I would allow attacking the door if the figure performing the attack is in either of those spaces, although it isn't in the rules.)

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ANOTHER bloody exception.

Objects occupying the same space as a figure can be targeted independently of the figure UNLESS the object is a door. A door is considered to be occupying the two spaces in either side of it and line of sight can be drawn to any of those squares UNLESS the square is occupied by a figure. Or its a Thursday that is also a full moon or the imperial player had a name with five letters in it.

Seriously? Friggin doors.

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ANOTHER bloody exception.

Objects occupying the same space as a figure can be targeted independently of the figure UNLESS the object is a door. A door is considered to be occupying the two spaces in either side of it and line of sight can be drawn to any of those squares UNLESS the square is occupied by a figure. Or its a Thursday that is also a full moon or the imperial player had a name with five letters in it.

Seriously? Friggin doors.

I don't find it too hard to understand. In terms of the rules a door is not a token, (like a terminal or something) and it is not a figure. It is a door and follows rules specific to doors.

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