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chrisbremen

Force Power: Move throwing one enemy into another

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When you use Force Power: Move to throw one enemy into another, how do you calculate damage? Do they both take 10*silhouette damage? Does it only deal damage to the target? Does it divide the damage between the two affected enemies?

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Me personally I'm a big fan of bouncing them off the side of a building 10 stories up, because well it works.

 

The damage will be based off the sil of the person you are chucking, not what you are hitting so 10 damage. Now when you play bowling for minions by tossing one minion group into another its only fitting to increase the sil size from 1 to 2 maybe 3 depending on the number of minions you are tossing. Then you simply apply the damage as before. If say you are tossing multiple people using an upgrade well just treat the ranged attack like auto fire only the attack is limited to the number of people or objects you are moving.

 

Once your players figure out how to bounce people off the side of a 10 story building there are a few things that you can do to keep them from murdering people with fall damage.

 

1. Coordination check to allow them to grab onto the building

2. Take any threat off the attack roll to indicate they managed to toss them through a window

3. Despairs mean nice soft landing on insert random bouncy or damage absorbing object

 

My personal favorite was the "He had a jet pack why did he die?" Oh I don't know what happens when you go face first off a building with a jet pack?

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I'm not throwing them off I'm throwing them into the building. Its not my fault that they bounce off and hit the ground sometimes... Besides that was self defense they attacked me first I was just trying to move them as far away as possible as fast as possible.

 

Also I didn't throw the guy with the jet pack off the building that was a player he didn't understand how that could be bad, because turning on a jet pack after going head first off the building is not going to end well.

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Usually the discussion about a Lightside Force User resorting to "I just made them fall, it's the sudden stop at the end did the killing" end up with the question "Was there a less frightening method of stopping that enemy from attacking you?" But every group play it differently

Edited by Richardbuxton

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one follow-up question
RaW seems to intend Move is _not_ for moving/throwing organic sentient things... Bind (with control upgrade) is the one

ora i'm wrong?

 

of course narrative description of move control upgrade can be "i throw him on the wall" rather than "i throw a table to him", so no problem; problem arise if you whanna throw a guy off a ledge, or just "i move him vertically up to close range and then drop him". Or a more Jedi-like "i move him vertically so he can enter from the window" or other jedi tricks...

 

it seems to me that if Bind is specifically to block/move people around, why should Move be able to do the same, with less upgrade and with lower FR requirements?

just asking, you know...

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Bind is more controlling, its slower movement and is more about restraining the target. The damage from Bind comes from squeezing the target with the force, it's Force Choke, it's also what Ren uses to hold Poe and the Blaster Bolt. It's using the force to physically control another being, it's a firm grasp.

Move on the other hand is quick movements, it's like slinging something, the power gets it moving but isn't as much in control of that movement. It's what Obi used to toss B1 droids aside and what brings a Lightsaber to you. Move is a throw or a slap.

Does that explain the intended difference?

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I remember the discussion about move being popular when EotE first came out.  IIRCC the consensus at the time was that you could not move someone up into the air and drop them for the book listed falling damage.  Due to the narrative nature of the game, using move let you do damage based on the silhouette and regardless of how you tried to narrate it, that is what the damage done was.

 

There was discussion about being able to use upgrades even though the object wasn't that size.  For example, you can move a silhouette 3 object but only move a silhouette 1 object with enough force to do the damage of the silhouette 3 object.  I don't recall what the consensus of that was though.

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Bind is more controlling, its slower movement and is more about restraining the target. The damage from Bind comes from squeezing the target with the force, it's Force Choke, it's also what Ren uses to hold Poe and the Blaster Bolt. It's using the force to physically control another being, it's a firm grasp.

Move on the other hand is quick movements, it's like slinging something, the power gets it moving but isn't as much in control of that movement. It's what Obi used to toss B1 droids aside and what brings a Lightsaber to you. Move is a throw or a slap.

OK but...

move without the damage-doing-control can be used to throw/move a friend as Kanan does with Ezra? and if that's the situation, the throwed-one (Ezra, in this case) should get damage? and so long, why don't use the same to damage/throw away opponent?

viceversa, with the second (third? i got no book with me so i'm just guessing) control upgrade you can carefully move an object... and that is also for people... so why using Bind?

 

i understand Bind description, and also the difference (Move is a throw, Bind is a careful movement); however, it seems to me Move use overlap with Bind, but easier and with less XP point...

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Bind is more controlling, its slower movement and is more about restraining the target. The damage from Bind comes from squeezing the target with the force, it's Force Choke, it's also what Ren uses to hold Poe and the Blaster Bolt. It's using the force to physically control another being, it's a firm grasp.

Move on the other hand is quick movements, it's like slinging something, the power gets it moving but isn't as much in control of that movement. It's what Obi used to toss B1 droids aside and what brings a Lightsaber to you. Move is a throw or a slap.

OK but...

move without the damage-doing-control can be used to throw/move a friend as Kanan does with Ezra? and if that's the situation, the throwed-one (Ezra, in this case) should get damage? and so long, why don't use the same to damage/throw away opponent?

viceversa, with the second (third? i got no book with me so i'm just guessing) control upgrade you can carefully move an object... and that is also for people... so why using Bind?

 

i understand Bind description, and also the difference (Move is a throw, Bind is a careful movement); however, it seems to me Move use overlap with Bind, but easier and with less XP point...

 

 

Because throwing someone with the force doesn't inherently inflict damage to them unless you spend a pip to do so, since it's possible to move an object within a players control range. The other thing is that with move you can't maintain a hold on someone on a turn to turn basis, you give the object a direction and you move it to that point. In this case, he is using Move to throw Ezra so that he can use his actions to aim or preform other actions, an action that might reward a couple additional boost dice to his next attack due to the unexpected/unconventional lob. When using move object, one isn't considered falling until the duration ends, and he only begins falling on his "turn".

 

Now, if Kanan picked Ezra up, and threw him at a wall when unprepared, that would be spending the damage pip. I personally disallow any munchkinism such as "lifting him way up and dropping and allowing the fall to kill him", if a character wants to do damage, he spends the pip for damage unless theres a very clear narrative purpose of doing it (e.g. near a cliff. and healthy conflict depending on target)

 

The thing is Bind can stop characters taking actions completely. That is the one huge benifit that bind has over throw as many characters can survive the throw and continue firing. 

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It's odd that he (or she) says RAW only the target would take damage when it's specified in the description that both the target and object being thrown takes damage.

 

-F&D page 298 "Resulting impacts deal damage to both the target and the object being moved."

 

Were previous editions of Edge or Age worded differently?

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Moving someone mid air and then dropping them is perfectly reasonable to inflict damage.  You still need hurl in order for it to really work, because Move isn't exactly fast for movement.

 

Honestly why do people still think Bind is used to toss people around?

The name is BIND

 

bind
bīnd/
verb
verb: bind; 3rd person present: binds; past tense: bound; past participle: bound; gerund or present participle: binding
1.
tie or fasten (something) tightly.
"floating bundles of logs bound together with ropes"
synonyms: tie (up), fasten (together), hold together, secure, make fast, attach;

 

Versus

 

1 move
verb \ˈmüv\
 
Simple Definition of move
  • : to cause (something or someone) to go from one place or position to another

 

Seriously how can someone not understand the definition of the word being used to describe the power?

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It's odd that he (or she) says RAW only the target would take damage when it's specified in the description that both the target and object being thrown takes damage.

 

-F&D page 298 "Resulting impacts deal damage to both the target and the object being moved."

 

Were previous editions of Edge or Age worded differently?

 

Far as I can recall, Move had always been worded so that both target and object suffered damage.  It's a large part of why the "Force slam" tactic (hurling one bad guy into another) can be so effective, especially against minions as you're pretty much assured to take out two of them if you succeed on the Easy Discipline check.

 

Edit: Re-reading the linked post, it sounds like Sam's answer (assuming it was Sam) was in reference to the scenario of a speeder being slammed into a mountainside, and that normally the mountainside wouldn't be taking damage (usually there's no point), but that in this case it's perfectly germain to have the mountain suffer some damage in that instance.

Edited by Donovan Morningfire

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Once your players figure out how to bounce people off the side of a 10 story building there are a few things that you can do to keep them from murdering people with fall damage.

I found handing out a healthy dose of conflict for inciting terror was a really good was to dissuade them; except in the droid factory I sent them to.

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I can't actually participate much in these discussions because I don't like the falling damage RAW and ignore them.

As far as slamming two folks into each other, I rule that you split it between them. Granted if you have the upgrades to move silhouette 2 objects and you're slamming two silhouette 1 objects Into each other (with the magnitude to move two objects) you get 10 dam on each, plus successes.

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Once your players figure out how to bounce people off the side of a 10 story building there are a few things that you can do to keep them from murdering people with fall damage.

I found handing out a healthy dose of conflict for inciting terror was a really good was to dissuade them; except in the droid factory I sent them to.

 

I find that kind of bs to be just plain bad,

First its unimaginative.

Second its petty.

Third there is way better conflict rewards or other unintended consequences for this.

 

Like for instance tossing them straight up into the air means what goes up must come down.

Spend a Darkside destiny to upgrade the ranged check and Instant Despair well that squad of storm troopers you tossed straight up to extreme range just landed on random dice roll.

 

Toss a guy off a building **** thats a whole murder for the innocent person he crushed to death when he went splat.

 

Ever seen a multicar airspeeder crash from your force tossing before?

 

When interrogating the survivors you let the players know the guy with the information/item they needed well him and that are currently melting in the magma...

Edited by Decorus

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Fear is the path to the dark side.

If you're 'bouncing' a person off a wall you're being intentionally cruell and likely their last moments will be them hurtling toward a wall at speed before intense pain that is inciting terror in a person.

I get that you don't like that your 'fun trick' isn't what I would consider Jedi behaviour and your welcome to your opinion however I can't think of a point in cannon or legends except during Anakins fall (gaining conflict) that such an act would be considered ok for a Jedi.

However it's also not just the terror you put in the person you just turned into a ragdoll it's the fear that you put into other opponents as well as potentially innocents who happen to be around.

I'm also not saying there wouldn't be other consequences, if despair was generated through the roll as they flung someone off a building I might well have it cause harm to an innocent or damage to something but that would be situational within the context of the event.

Being cruel is a path to the dark side ragdolling people to bounce them I would consider cruel.

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Personally, I wouldn't assign Conflict if a PC were to do a "Force slam" type of effect on a target that's an active combatant, droid or otherwise.  Mechanically you'd be slamming the target into the floor, though in terms of the narrative you're just pushing them back a couple meters to the ground (and with minions, quite often taking them out of the fight).

 

Now, for just slamming someone against a wall, I wouldn't assign a whole lot of Conflict, but probably 1 point, maybe 2 at the most.

 

But lifting someone up via Move and then dropping to to take advantage of the much harsher falling rules?  That would generate substantial Conflict; probably about 5 or 6 if against somebody that was actively attacking you and the target was only lifted up to the equivalent of a short range fall; the higher the distance, the more Conflict you'd earn at my table for that stunt due to extra and unnecessary degree of cruelty invoked with that particular stunt.

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