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The 3 Scouts

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recommended fix: make contracted scout unique

 

Why must things be "fixed" just because they're particularly viable?  Sure, 3 Scouts will hit hard in an initial engagement.  So deny them that engagement.

 

They're PS 3; so against most lists they're going to be moving close to first and you know what they're going to want to do; set up for that Torp strike.  Which means you should be able to anticipate where they'll manouever to.  So don't joust, roll slow, skirt the board edges, draw them into the obstacle field and break them up.  Then seek to flank them and concentrate fire.  Yes, they're 9HP, but they're only two agility; they'll go down fairly quickly under fire.  Particularly if they're looking to save their focus tokens for their own torps.

 

 

This. I haven't played the list yet and I'm not the most experienced pilot in the world, but how hard can it be to keep your ships out of range/arc (and remember they do have to be in arc!) of three large base PS3 clunkers? Maybe the funky Jumpmaster dial is giving people fits? I don't know, but it doesn't seem like this would be impossible to counter with good piloting. If you stay out of arc (or at least, out of 2 of 3 arcs) the torpedoes aren't a threat, and most ships in the current meta aren't at all scared of the 2 dice PWT...

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every wave is a new pay to win, because you're paying for sexy new ships and winning with them

Yea, this whole game is practically pay to win - like a crackswarm. You are buying six Khiraxz ships for one single card. That is the cost of two jumpmasters. Or buying a raider for Palpatine, wtf. You want two copies Veteran Instincts for your Imperial squad? Go buy Falcon and Slave I. I say, someone buying 3 three ships that they are actually going to fly, is called playing the game.

 

Ebay says "hello, want some crack shots for 2$ each?"

so your arguement is invalid :D

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Not everyone is in the US where it seems ebay prices are cheep for popular cards, crackshot is going to cost you a lot more in than that in the UK and thats if you can find someone selling it, cards like that cost 3/4 or more of the ship they came with and we pay a lot more for the ships.

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every wave is a new pay to win, because you're paying for sexy new ships and winning with them

Yea, this whole game is practically pay to win - like a crackswarm. You are buying six Khiraxz ships for one single card. That is the cost of two jumpmasters. Or buying a raider for Palpatine, wtf. You want two copies Veteran Instincts for your Imperial squad? Go buy Falcon and Slave I. I say, someone buying 3 three ships that they are actually going to fly, is called playing the game.

 

Ebay says "hello, want some crack shots for 2$ each?"

so your arguement is invalid :D

 

 

 

Not everyone is in the US where it seems ebay prices are cheep for popular cards, crackshot is going to cost you a lot more in than that in the UK and thats if you can find someone selling it, cards like that cost 3/4 or more of the ship they came with and we pay a lot more for the ships.

 

Yup.  For me to get extra Crackshot, I'm looking at around $7-$8 US a card plus $15 shipping. 

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Not everyone is in the US where it seems ebay prices are cheep for popular cards, crackshot is going to cost you a lot more in than that in the UK and thats if you can find someone selling it, cards like that cost 3/4 or more of the ship they came with and we pay a lot more for the ships.

 

 

Yup.  For me to get extra Crackshot, I'm looking at around $7-$8 US a card plus $15 shipping. 

 

 

Amen. Comparing the prices (just roughly on Amazon), picking up a Kihraxz for Crackshot in the US is the equivalent of about 10 euro. Here in Ireland, that same ship is 17 euro. Now, I could go to eBay for that card, but the price for Crackshot on eBay here is almost 15 euro including shipping, which makes the eBay option somewhat redundant really; it's almost as cheap to get the whole ship, and at least you're supporting your local store.

This is also likely why I've never come across a list here with more than two copies of Crackshot.

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recommended fix: make contracted scout unique

after everyone bought 3? lmao

 

 

Yeah, it would not be a very customer friendly maneuver...making Deadeye unique, as suggested above, would also work.

 

I know it seems a little early to be dodging shards of skyfall here, but:

  • The Contracted Scout is clearly underpriced.  As a thought experiment, put a hull upgrade on it and compare it to a Fringer.  It has the same hit points, and is two points cheaper (28 vs 30) and strikingly better (higher PS, better dial, more/better upgrade slots). 
  • Over the last month Triple Scout has been absolutely wreaking face on Vassal. Every other room is featuring one. I saw a K-Wing evaporate in one round of fire last night. The Vassal crew has generally been pretty good about predicting the OTB competitive meta.
  • It is going to warp the competitive meta. Besides the CrackBlack Swam, there is no obvious natural predator to this thing. Four ship rebels is (in my opinion) a dead archtype now. Which is a shame, because that archetype has a really useful spot in the ecosystem. Me and some other X-Wing dudes whose opinion I value highly have been wracking our brains on how to fight this #$%^ing thing, and it isn't obvious at all.  
Edited by sozin

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*looks at 5 Kirahzes and YV*
Well, what's the problem? Imps want a solo-faction with all the good cards in it? 

 

On topic: UUU list doesn't even sound a gamebreaker.

The fact that noname 1300 and noname 2400 suck even more doesn't make it super-competitive.

It's great against tlts, but doesn't scare aces that much. It SURELY scares regen-aces, and that's GREAT.

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recommended fix: make contracted scout unique

after everyone bought 3? lmao

 

 

Yeah, it would not be a very customer friendly maneuver...making Deadeye unique, as suggested above, would also work.

 

I know it seems a little early to be dodging shards of skyfall here, but:

  • The Contracted Scout is clearly underpriced.  As a thought experiment, put a hull upgrade on it and compare it to a Fringer.  It has the same hit points, and is two points cheaper (28 vs 30) and strikingly better (higher PS, better dial, more/better upgrade slots). 
  • Over the last month Triple Scout has been absolutely wreaking face on Vassal. Every other room is featuring one. I saw a K-Wing evaporate in one round of fire last night. The Vassal crew has generally been pretty good about predicting the OTB competitive meta.
  • It is going to warp the competitive meta. Besides the CrackBlack Swam, there is no obvious natural predator to this thing. Four ship rebels is (in my opinion) a dead archtype now. Which is a shame, because that archetype has a really useful spot in the ecosystem. Me and some other X-Wing dudes whose opinion I value highly have been wracking our brains on how to fight this #$%^ing thing, and it isn't obvious at all.  

 

 

These are similar to comments I've heard from top players as well.  I've also seen top players defeated by decent but not great players relatively easily with the list repeatedly trying various options to beat it.    I've had one very good player tell me they think it may be worse than the Phantom in terms of meta warping.   I'm not sure it's true, but there's a ton of them being played already.

 

While I think comparing it to the Fringer is worthwhile, that doesn't inspire a lot of people (even if it should).  I try point out that that there are a handful of small fighter ships that are in the same price range that aren't at all comparable to this ship for the points difference (B-Wing, K-Wing, Star Viper, Mist Hunter, Punisher,), most of which are ships with forward facing arcs and nowhere near the customization (and some without a turret) I am really baffled how the points ended up at 25 when looking at those comparisons.   People were already talking about how far other generics were going to be behind TLT Ys, I think this is going to make it even more difficult for them to "catch up."

 

 

Making a generic pilot unique would be ridiculous, and set a bonkers precedent.

 

So is this list making it past playtest, oh wait, the same thing happened in the SW LCG... :P

 

 

I'm not sure how true it is, but I've heard a rumor that the last version playtesters saw was at 27 points.  While that's not a significant cost for 1, it certainly would make three look very different.  They'd be giving up accuracy or shots at the very least. 

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recommended fix: make contracted scout unique

after everyone bought 3? lmao

 

 

Yeah, it would not be a very customer friendly maneuver...making Deadeye unique, as suggested above, would also work.

 

I know it seems a little early to be dodging shards of skyfall here, but:

  • The Contracted Scout is clearly underpriced.  As a thought experiment, put a hull upgrade on it and compare it to a Fringer.  It has the same hit points, and is two points cheaper (28 vs 30) and strikingly better (higher PS, better dial, more/better upgrade slots). 
  • Over the last month Triple Scout has been absolutely wreaking face on Vassal. Every other room is featuring one. I saw a K-Wing evaporate in one round of fire last night. The Vassal crew has generally been pretty good about predicting the OTB competitive meta.
  • It is going to warp the competitive meta. Besides the CrackBlack Swam, there is no obvious natural predator to this thing. Four ship rebels is (in my opinion) a dead archtype now. Which is a shame, because that archetype has a really useful spot in the ecosystem. Me and some other X-Wing dudes whose opinion I value highly have been wracking our brains on how to fight this #$%^ing thing, and it isn't obvious at all.  

 

 

I agree with Sozin, I have been wondering how early it would be to call the issue. But it looks very bad to me.

 

Whisper and TLTs have been called as extremely strong at their time, but they both had natural counters, like Han + VI for Whisper, or Brobots + Sensor Jammer if you really wanted to overkill quad TLTs (but it was not necessary to go that far).

 

In my tests, I am not even sure Crackblack swarm has the edge : it only does if you manage to deal 9 damages on the first encouter, which is very far from obvious. First, you need your whole squad to be able focus fire at one Scout, which is far from easy, and then, the targeted scout can stress itself a lot to get a few evades despite the crack shots with overclocked R4. Then your return fire comes and the most likely outcome is that you should kill 2 Ties if your 3 scouts survived. And then I think the game is at your advantage.

 

Indeed the scout is underpriced. In my statistical model, Scout + Predator + Zuckuss (or 4 LOM) is simply the most cost efficient jousting turret in the game. And a few cards combining well together make it a wonderful torpedo platform too.

 

3 scouts variations is unfortunately heads and shoulders above most of the staples of the Meta, and its predator list is really arguable.

 

It's early, and I am sad to say that, but I think taking action is needed.

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I know it seems a little early to be dodging shards of skyfall here, but:

  • The Contracted Scout is clearly underpriced.  As a thought experiment, put a hull upgrade on it and compare it to a Fringer.  It has the same hit points, and is two points cheaper (28 vs 30) and strikingly better (higher PS, better dial, more/better upgrade slots). 

 

 

not to question its impact on the meta, but you cannot claim it's under-priced by comparing it to the severely overpriced fringer

 

might as well point at the ORS while we're at it

 

a more apt comparison would be the K-wing @ 23 on a small base

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Have we have some people here who tried dedicated counter list against it? Like a crack swarm with 6 crack shots?

I have the following list that I played couple weeks ago and it literally took only 2 rounds of attack to completely wipe out all my opponents 3 ships which included (3P0 Miranda Tlt, Red Ace Comm relay, R2 and an a Prototype pilot) ok my rolls where near perfect but still

- Howl (Crack+Hull)

- Scourge (Crack) an excellent Tie against high health ship like the Scout or Mauler both are good

- 4 Black (Crack)

100 pts

Or

- Soontir (RG, Stealth, Auto, PTL)

- Jax (RG, Hull or Stealth, Auto, PTL)

- Inquisitor (Title, Auto, PTL)

100 pts

I am sure those 2 builds can do something against the Triple U boat in 2 very different ways. Ultimate arc Dodge, survivability + focus denial or Evade denier + multiple attacks, all before the U-boat gets to shoot. With 6 crack shots, one U boat should be down in the first engagement almost 100%

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I'm still not positive this will be the meta crusher list. Flying 3 large bases is never a paltry task and chimps makes ordnance good for sure but this still feels really all in on that plan. 4/4 hits is nice but unless you're firing multiple torpedos at the same Imperial ace (Soontir as always comes to mind) you're not likely to do that much. This list should be a bigger problem for things like regen Poe and Miranda than Palp Aces as they don't have as many ways to avoid the torpedo shots as easily.

But Soontir most likely will fade away with all the stuff that's coming in wave 8. Autoblaster Ghost and R5-P8 being the main anti-fel thing.

 

 

Right, there's a ton of other hate that's coming for ships that rely on agility for their survival.

 

that last part basically translates to it sucks to play imperials right now since most of their ships rely on agility

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I know it seems a little early to be dodging shards of skyfall here, but:

 

  • The Contracted Scout is clearly underpriced.  As a thought experiment, put a hull upgrade on it and compare it to a Fringer.  It has the same hit points, and is two points cheaper (28 vs 30) and strikingly better (higher PS, better dial, more/better upgrade slots). 

 

 

not to question its impact on the meta, but you cannot claim it's under-priced by comparing it to the severely overpriced fringer

 

might as well point at the ORS while we're at it

 

a more apt comparison would be the K-wing @ 23 on a small base

 

 

Oh well you absolutely can, it's mostly math.

Someone like MJ can easily quantify by how much a fringer is overpriced and then we can relate that cost to the contracted scout.

My personal guess: They're both 2-3points over/underpriced (fringer/scout).

Edited by Celes

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recommended fix: make contracted scout unique

after everyone bought 3? lmao

Yeah, it would not be a very customer friendly maneuver...making Deadeye unique, as suggested above, would also work.

I know it seems a little early to be dodging shards of skyfall here, but:

  • The Contracted Scout is clearly underpriced. As a thought experiment, put a hull upgrade on it and compare it to a Fringer. It has the same hit points, and is two points cheaper (28 vs 30) and strikingly better (higher PS, better dial, more/better upgrade slots).
  • Over the last month Triple Scout has been absolutely wreaking face on Vassal. Every other room is featuring one. I saw a K-Wing evaporate in one round of fire last night. The Vassal crew has generally been pretty good about predicting the OTB competitive meta.
  • It is going to warp the competitive meta. Besides the CrackBlack Swam, there is no obvious natural predator to this thing. Four ship rebels is (in my opinion) a dead archtype now. Which is a shame, because that archetype has a really useful spot in the ecosystem. Me and some other X-Wing dudes whose opinion I value highly have been wracking our brains on how to fight this #$%^ing thing, and it isn't obvious at all.
Quad Gammas each with quad Homing Missiles and quad EM and chips/LRS?

Kriegsmarine is certainly powerful, I just think people will have to fly something other than Acewing or TLT against it. I think it's a good thing how OP it is, changing the meta back to arc based generics.

Triple Guardian squadron, each with EM Homing Missiles and LRS? Youngster and 8 TIEs?

Hell, 4 Red Squadrons with Targeting Astromechs and IA? Get Biggs/ Tarn in there if you wanted.

If both Palp Aces and quad TLT get shut out of the meta simultaneously, it's not a bad thing.

Things being overpowered is not the issue, it's what's overpowered and at the top that's the problem. If kriegsmarine warps the meta more than the Phantom that's fine as long as it swings the game back to generics having to point their arcs at each other. There are counters to this list, Imperial players will just have to use a list without Soontir for once. Clusters FCS Redline is great for burning down soft targets, you could fly him next to 2 Black Eight Squadrons.

Edited by ParaGoomba Slayer

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recommended fix: make contracted scout unique

after everyone bought 3? lmao
 

Yeah, it would not be a very customer friendly maneuver...making Deadeye unique, as suggested above, would also work.

 

I know it seems a little early to be dodging shards of skyfall here, but:

  • The Contracted Scout is clearly underpriced.  As a thought experiment, put a hull upgrade on it and compare it to a Fringer.  It has the same hit points, and is two points cheaper (28 vs 30) and strikingly better (higher PS, better dial, more/better upgrade slots). 
  • Over the last month Triple Scout has been absolutely wreaking face on Vassal. Every other room is featuring one. I saw a K-Wing evaporate in one round of fire last night. The Vassal crew has generally been pretty good about predicting the OTB competitive meta.
  • It is going to warp the competitive meta. Besides the CrackBlack Swam, there is no obvious natural predator to this thing. Four ship rebels is (in my opinion) a dead archtype now. Which is a shame, because that archetype has a really useful spot in the ecosystem. Me and some other X-Wing dudes whose opinion I value highly have been wracking our brains on how to fight this #$%^ing thing, and it isn't obvious at all.  

Quad Gammas each with quad Homing Missiles and quad EM and chips/LRS?

Kriegsmarine is certainly powerful, I just think people will have to fly something other than Acewing or TLT against it. I think it's a good thing how OP it is, changing the meta back to arc based generics.

Triple Guardian squadron, each with EM Homing Missiles and LRS? Youngster and 8 TIEs?

Hell, 4 Red Squadrons with Targeting Astromechs and IA? Get Biggs/ Tarn in there if you wanted.

If both Palp Aces and quad TLT get shut out of the meta simultaneously, it's not a bad thing.

the problem with your statement is that these ships are not just arc based ships. I take it either your planning on running this list or have never played against it

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recommended fix: make contracted scout unique

after everyone bought 3? lmao

Yeah, it would not be a very customer friendly maneuver...making Deadeye unique, as suggested above, would also work.

I know it seems a little early to be dodging shards of skyfall here, but:

  • The Contracted Scout is clearly underpriced. As a thought experiment, put a hull upgrade on it and compare it to a Fringer. It has the same hit points, and is two points cheaper (28 vs 30) and strikingly better (higher PS, better dial, more/better upgrade slots).
  • Over the last month Triple Scout has been absolutely wreaking face on Vassal. Every other room is featuring one. I saw a K-Wing evaporate in one round of fire last night. The Vassal crew has generally been pretty good about predicting the OTB competitive meta.
  • It is going to warp the competitive meta. Besides the CrackBlack Swam, there is no obvious natural predator to this thing. Four ship rebels is (in my opinion) a dead archtype now. Which is a shame, because that archetype has a really useful spot in the ecosystem. Me and some other X-Wing dudes whose opinion I value highly have been wracking our brains on how to fight this #$%^ing thing, and it isn't obvious at all.
Quad Gammas each with quad Homing Missiles and quad EM and chips/LRS?

Kriegsmarine is certainly powerful, I just think people will have to fly something other than Acewing or TLT against it. I think it's a good thing how OP it is, changing the meta back to arc based generics.

Triple Guardian squadron, each with EM Homing Missiles and LRS? Youngster and 8 TIEs?

Hell, 4 Red Squadrons with Targeting Astromechs and IA? Get Biggs/ Tarn in there if you wanted.

If both Palp Aces and quad TLT get shut out of the meta simultaneously, it's not a bad thing.

Things being overpowered is not the issue, it's what's overpowered and at the top that's the problem. If kriegsmarine warps the meta more than the Phantom that's fine as long as it swings the game back to generics having to point their arcs at each other. There are counters to this list, Imperial players will just have to use a list without Soontir for once. Clusters FCS Redline is great for burning down soft targets, you could fly him next to 2 Black Eight Squadrons.

 

 

so the Gammas do put out the same amount of damage as the scouts, but they're far less flexible against higher PS targets

 

 

so while pure spam should annihilate scouts, you'll be in trouble v everything else unless you love bombers

 

imo, easier to set up a mixed list that includes some homing missile Gammas and then something else. Omega Leader fits in with 2 homing Gammas and 1 4-point ordnance Gamma (which is less good until LRS comes out). Inquisitor fits in with two 2 homing Gammas and leaves 19 points (crackshot omega?)

 

 

 

imo, palp aces aren't actually badly off at all against the scouts. Unless you get blocked, they should be packing enough mods to whether 3+ hits per shot.

 

 

another good thing to use is SJ, which works as the focus is almost always spent for deadeye until they run out of torps. Granted, you can always g-chips the focus back to a hit, but if you're left with less than 3 hits after the re-roll SJ will rob you of damage (and you can't re-roll the SJed die)

 

 

EDIT:

 

Another thing I'd try if I never got bored sh*tless of fat ships is

 

Kanan (SJ, reconl r2d2) or whichever ends up being the most efficient variation of that ship

 

 

now, on paper, the Ghost is a giant bullseye for 3 scouts but Kanan's a bit weird

 

 

First there's his ability, knocking 4 dice down to 3. Then there's SJ, which may end up doing less than I hope but which does cancel 1 damage if the opponent doesn't roll two natural hits after re-rolls (Can't re-roll the SJed die).

 

focus fire will still be ruinous, but with either a soak (Biggs?) or another late game force, I'm wondering if it's possible to tank the 6 torps and still end up in a late game scenario that favors you

 

 

only had 3 games against them so far, and the one I won was because the rest of my squad ate enough torps for Inq to run against a torpless scout for the late game. It was a forgone conclusion at that point

 

edit edit: fickle derping hard here

 

Reinforced Deflectors exist

 

you got brobots and scouts in your meta? you slap on Reinforced Deflectors

Edited by ficklegreendice

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recommended fix: make contracted scout unique

after everyone bought 3? lmao
 

Yeah, it would not be a very customer friendly maneuver...making Deadeye unique, as suggested above, would also work.

 

I know it seems a little early to be dodging shards of skyfall here, but:

  • The Contracted Scout is clearly underpriced.  As a thought experiment, put a hull upgrade on it and compare it to a Fringer.  It has the same hit points, and is two points cheaper (28 vs 30) and strikingly better (higher PS, better dial, more/better upgrade slots). 
  • Over the last month Triple Scout has been absolutely wreaking face on Vassal. Every other room is featuring one. I saw a K-Wing evaporate in one round of fire last night. The Vassal crew has generally been pretty good about predicting the OTB competitive meta.
  • It is going to warp the competitive meta. Besides the CrackBlack Swam, there is no obvious natural predator to this thing. Four ship rebels is (in my opinion) a dead archtype now. Which is a shame, because that archetype has a really useful spot in the ecosystem. Me and some other X-Wing dudes whose opinion I value highly have been wracking our brains on how to fight this #$%^ing thing, and it isn't obvious at all.  

Quad Gammas each with quad Homing Missiles and quad EM and chips/LRS?

Kriegsmarine is certainly powerful, I just think people will have to fly something other than Acewing or TLT against it. I think it's a good thing how OP it is, changing the meta back to arc based generics.

Triple Guardian squadron, each with EM Homing Missiles and LRS? Youngster and 8 TIEs?

Hell, 4 Red Squadrons with Targeting Astromechs and IA? Get Biggs/ Tarn in there if you wanted.

If both Palp Aces and quad TLT get shut out of the meta simultaneously, it's not a bad thing.

the problem with your statement is that these ships are not just arc based ships. I take it either your planning on running this list or have never played against it

I'm aware of their turrets. Guardian Squadrons also have turrets, so use those then.

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recommended fix: make contracted scout unique

after everyone bought 3? lmao

 

Why not? It's the single fix that requires the least work on the part of FFG and has the intended impact.

 

Making Deadeye unique helps "a little" but doesn't fix the problem completely because 3 well-equipped scouts even without deadeye are OP.

 

The Contracted Scout with torps, extra munitions and guidance chips is just too good (at too low of a point cost) to be a generic ship.

 

The Attack Shuttle doesn't have any generics, and although the Ghost has a generic the point cost is too high to put three of them in a list together ... and if you put two Ghosts in a list you don't have enough points for upgrades or the attack shuttle with ghost/phantom cards (so only one attack per ship during the combat phase and no rear primary arcs).

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Why think of "fixes" when none are required? UUU isn't OP

 

Let's check back in on this point after Regional Season and see if you still agree!

 

 

I just finished a 50 man store championship tournament. There were 4 people playing U-boats. The top 4 was me, U-boats, U-boats, U-boats. Only one U-Boat player missed the top 8, with a record of 4-2. I ended up in 2nd place, leaving 1st, 3rd and 4th to be filled by U-Boats. 

 

U-Boats may become the new Soontir: Build your list with an answer to this problem, or get wrekt by it.

Edited by CBMarkham

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Not sure if this has been discussed prior (don't have the time to read everything), but one of the sad parts of the Scout being an insanely proficient ordnance carrier is it basically neuters the buff to other ordnance carriers Chips brought.

 

Yes, B-wings, K-wings, Bombers, and Punishers all love Chips, and actually are probably pretty good with them. But, every time I load up a list builder and try to make something work with ordnance and these guys, it pails in comparison to the consistency and utility of the Scouts. I think if they all had access to Deadeye (the PS 4 generics at least), they might be able to compete (Imp Vets should be kind to the the Bomber), but without it, they can't assure that first exchange gets a torp off. And without that, they are always going to be a step behind the Scouts.

 

 

On second thought, that might not even be enough. Even if they got Deadeye, they don't get the R4 smechs which are just bonkers good.

 

 

I'm looking forward to what people start to run to try to counter this. Good luck you guys. It's going to be tough.

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