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The 3 Scouts

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I love how folks come up with the "it ain't so bad, I beat it with just" . SC results already show it's a power house. Yes it can die yes it's a case of don't stuff up you attack run ( but that's the same with any list is the common reply by the uboat player),no the sky's not falling there are lists like palp aces with carnor that can beat it( not an auto win I can tell you and it's a list made to beat uboats, hope they didn't bring the bump master cos your game plans over). Yep Blount with tracers and a few talas will probably win the day. But let's not kid ourselves here people this list is going to be the list you brought to win a SC or it's going to be a list that has been made to beat this list but can also take others such as palp with carnor. So far from what I have seen any good/top player who brings this list or a type of it, are going to take to day out unless they have a bad day or another top player brought a counter to this list and had a good day. Do you really think that this list encourages list diversity, if you say yes then I would have to say you must be running this list!

So many of us xwing players are waiting for xwings to be good again, I guess this is a good way for them to be cos your now going to see people run Biggs and Wes, we did get that xwing buff after all

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[edit] This was my round 5 game (4-0 vs 4-0) at last weekend's 36 player store championship.

I don't understand why they just let that happen to themselves. I'm sure you flew well but it sounds like they flew like a paper bag or just couldn't puzzle out the (fairly obvious) point of your list. If there's 1 big ship on the enemy side and it has a barrel roll and is clearly purpose built for blocking and messing a blocked nerd up I think the only ship you want to think about touching that with is the shuttle. Aces should split up a bit then let the shuttle lead off and bump/tank the alpha while they come in from various obtuse angles. Allowing the gameplan of 'block 1, blow up that and another ace' to go that smoothly seems like a large error unless you've greatly simplified how hard you worked to trap and bump him.

 

I found myself wondering why it was 100 points to 71 and what in the world the shuttle was doing during all this! ;)

not wanting to close with the uboats or it would evaporate in one round maybe 2

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[edit] This was my round 5 game (4-0 vs 4-0) at last weekend's 36 player store championship.

I don't understand why they just let that happen to themselves. I'm sure you flew well but it sounds like they flew like a paper bag or just couldn't puzzle out the (fairly obvious) point of your list. If there's 1 big ship on the enemy side and it has a barrel roll and is clearly purpose built for blocking and messing a blocked nerd up I think the only ship you want to think about touching that with is the shuttle. Aces should split up a bit then let the shuttle lead off and bump/tank the alpha while they come in from various obtuse angles. Allowing the gameplan of 'block 1, blow up that and another ace' to go that smoothly seems like a large error unless you've greatly simplified how hard you worked to trap and bump him.

 

I found myself wondering why it was 100 points to 71 and what in the world the shuttle was doing during all this! ;)

not wanting to close with the uboats or it would evaporate in one round maybe 2

Honestly, if I've got a couple Autothruster aces, losing a PalpShuttle to eat up most of the U-boat's torp supply doesn't seem like the worst result.

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[edit] This was my round 5 game (4-0 vs 4-0) at last weekend's 36 player store championship.

I don't understand why they just let that happen to themselves. I'm sure you flew well but it sounds like they flew like a paper bag or just couldn't puzzle out the (fairly obvious) point of your list. If there's 1 big ship on the enemy side and it has a barrel roll and is clearly purpose built for blocking and messing a blocked nerd up I think the only ship you want to think about touching that with is the shuttle. Aces should split up a bit then let the shuttle lead off and bump/tank the alpha while they come in from various obtuse angles. Allowing the gameplan of 'block 1, blow up that and another ace' to go that smoothly seems like a large error unless you've greatly simplified how hard you worked to trap and bump him.

This is the same as saying why did you just let yourself get shot at all. It really ain't that hard, it's been the common way aces have had a down fall. You see the other 2 provide support for the block a ship only has a few directions it can go and it it needs to clear stress it's so much easier to predict also asteroids and debris are on the map. We are playing the same game right? My handle on vassel is the same so I can show you how it's done, btw I have used palp aces with carnor to take out a sc of 42 people so I'm sure I know the pros and cons and if some one with 2/3 big baseswith br looks at your dial and have set anything even close to where you intended to go then your tagged. Remember you don't need the ship with feedback to be touching just in r1 for it to work. Just hope they didn't have room for greedo on the bump master and have Intel on there uboats

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[edit] This was my round 5 game (4-0 vs 4-0) at last weekend's 36 player store championship.

I don't understand why they just let that happen to themselves. I'm sure you flew well but it sounds like they flew like a paper bag or just couldn't puzzle out the (fairly obvious) point of your list. If there's 1 big ship on the enemy side and it has a barrel roll and is clearly purpose built for blocking and messing a blocked nerd up I think the only ship you want to think about touching that with is the shuttle. Aces should split up a bit then let the shuttle lead off and bump/tank the alpha while they come in from various obtuse angles. Allowing the gameplan of 'block 1, blow up that and another ace' to go that smoothly seems like a large error unless you've greatly simplified how hard you worked to trap and bump him.

 

I found myself wondering why it was 100 points to 71 and what in the world the shuttle was doing during all this! ;)

not wanting to close with the uboats or it would evaporate in one round maybe 2

Honestly, if I've got a couple Autothruster aces, losing a PalpShuttle to eat up most of the U-boat's torp supply doesn't seem like the worst result.

now that so true, except they would only need to eat up 1 from 2 u boats and might be finished off with just the primary turret of the third, plasma torp first that's there shields gone unless they rolled there 1 evade or use palp,proton for the 3/4 maybe even 5 if you get the wrong crit and then finish off with the primary if ya didn't you are more than likely to finish him off with a primary next round and done

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This is the same as saying why did you just let yourself get shot at all.

Honestly it's not. By no means do I think arc dodging is some sort of automatic magic that always is possible or easy but fighting a bumpmaster seems not dissimilar to fighting stresshog. There are clear danger zones and you should carefully avoid those zones at all costs. In my post I think I clearly laid out why I feel the situation should have been avoidable given the information we have on how the match went, and I think I also gave reasonable strategies rather than just 'omg why did they get shot arcdodge is magic'.

Additionally the way it was described seems like this whole series of events transpired in the first approach, well before any stress or intelligence agent should take place, so if the initial approach allowed an easy guess then that's an equally large mistake. Certainly blocking aces is possible, not overly impossible, and a great way to kill them, but it shouldn't be quite so wham-ham-thank you ma'am I shouldn't think.

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Honestly, I still think palp aces are the list to beat

 

Jumpmasters are a powerhouse, no doubt about it, but you're not hitting through palp aces without action denial and help from feedback; especially not the one left over after you've spent your torps

And all Palpaces needs to do is a modification of strategy - knowing that 2-dice PWT can't hit Soontir and Vader reliably, they drive the shuttle straight up the middle and dare the JM player to use his torps on it while the Aces flank. Also, blocking with the shuttle is a thing too.

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So I played against the triple scout again a few more times and against a variety of people and it honestly isn't as scary as people make it out to be.

 

When they don't have a focus action/have you in arc/outside of range 1 they are three TIE Fighters that really struggle to sink damage through. Additionally, this happens, a lot:

BUMPMASTER 5k uses deadeye to activate Proton Torps, triggers R4 Agro for a target lock. Rolls crit, hit, focus, blank. Uses Proton to convert the focus to a crit and then guidance chips the blank to hit. Player then smirks at the seriously amount of cheddar he just threw down the table. So, Crit, Crit, Hit, Hit at range 3.

The Inquistor rolls: Evade, blank, blank.

Imperial player activates autothrusters for range 3, spends the evade token and then uses Palpatine to convert a blank into an evade. Total of four evades.

The cheese just got grated.

 

Will the real BumpMaster please stand up? That's a torpedo boat masquerading as a BumpMaster, and it's not even doing an effective job at it.

 

Scenario:

Inquisitor, Omega Leader, Wampa, Palpmobile 

 

vs

 

Scout + deadeye + GC + EM + Proton Torp + R4 + Boba Fett

Scout + deadeye + GC + EM + Plasma Torp + OCR4

Scout + Intimidation + Intel Agent + Anti-Pursuit Lasers + Feedback Array

 

First round of shots fired:

  • BumpMaster zooms forward, and barrel rolls to get in position to block Omega Leader.
  • Torpedo boats slide in behind the BumpMaster.
  • TIEs move. Wampa evades. Omega Leader Bumps and takes a damage from APL. Inquisitor flanks from the side and TL/F/E.
  • Inquisitor shoots and rolls 2 damage onto OCR4, who evades it with evade + eyeball. OCR4 spends focus, gains it back via stress.
  • Omega Leader's 2 dice primary at range 2 do nothing.
  • Wampa does nothing.
  • Plasma Torp boat gains a 2nd stress to fire 4 dice plasma at range 2 w/ focus on Omega. 4 hits. Omega rolls 2 dice (Intimidation) and gets two non-evades. Palp changes one to an evade, spends token, Omega takes 2 damage and has 1 hull left.
  • Proton boat one-shots Wampa.
  • BumpMaster uses Feedback Array to kill Omega Leader.
The rest of the game is spent blocking the Inquisitor who has nowhere to go, and has a visible dial every turn.

 

That's how you fly the BumpMaster.

 

[edit] This was my round 5 game (4-0 vs 4-0) at last weekend's 36 player store championship.

That a lot of assumptions about dice results.

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[edit] This was my round 5 game (4-0 vs 4-0) at last weekend's 36 player store championship.

I don't understand why they just let that happen to themselves. I'm sure you flew well but it sounds like they flew like a paper bag or just couldn't puzzle out the (fairly obvious) point of your list. If there's 1 big ship on the enemy side and it has a barrel roll and is clearly purpose built for blocking and messing a blocked nerd up I think the only ship you want to think about touching that with is the shuttle. Aces should split up a bit then let the shuttle lead off and bump/tank the alpha while they come in from various obtuse angles. Allowing the gameplan of 'block 1, blow up that and another ace' to go that smoothly seems like a large error unless you've greatly simplified how hard you worked to trap and bump him.

 

I found myself wondering why it was 100 points to 71 and what in the world the shuttle was doing during all this! ;)

not wanting to close with the uboats or it would evaporate in one round maybe 2

 

 

Well, it sounds like it a) left a gun out of the fight and b) sacrificed the best endgame piece in Omega Leader instead.   There were two ships in the list that could reasonably fight an endgame against equal numbers of Jumpmasters and the shuttle wasn't one of them.

 

I think the Jumpmasters are a very strong list and I'm a bit nervous about the impact they will have on the game overall, especially for newer players but I'm going to try and figure out strategies to beat them and point out where I think someone could have fought them better.

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Regarding Palp Aces: a shuttle has 10 hp, meaning it likely takes 3 Torps to kill. Using it to absorb half the enemy's ammo doesn't sound as a bad trade-off at all.

 

Or 3/4 of the ammo in a list with a Bumpmaster.

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[edit] This was my round 5 game (4-0 vs 4-0) at last weekend's 36 player store championship.

I don't understand why they just let that happen to themselves. I'm sure you flew well but it sounds like they flew like a paper bag or just couldn't puzzle out the (fairly obvious) point of your list. If there's 1 big ship on the enemy side and it has a barrel roll and is clearly purpose built for blocking and messing a blocked nerd up I think the only ship you want to think about touching that with is the shuttle. Aces should split up a bit then let the shuttle lead off and bump/tank the alpha while they come in from various obtuse angles.

 

 I set my ships up alongside each other and fortressed round 1 (hard turns into each other) to see where he was going. Omega Leader and Wampa were coming down the side near me, and Inquisitor was flanking down the center of the map. By the end of turn 2, the BumpMaster was the innermost ship towards the center of the map, and was in position to block either Inquisitor or Omega Leader / Wampa.  He thought I was going for Inquisitor, but I choose Omega Leader as I didn't want that ship to survive to the end game.

 

The Inquisitor spent the next 4-5 rounds getting blocked by various ships (usually not the BumpMaster) while I worked down the PalpMobile.

 

 

 

 

[edit] This was my round 5 game (4-0 vs 4-0) at last weekend's 36 player store championship.

I don't understand why they just let that happen to themselves.... unless you've greatly simplified how hard you worked to trap and bump him.

 

It starts at turn 0. ;) Figure out what that one thing is that the list does well, and then have the discipline to stick with it. I got away from that in my Top 4 and it bit me.

 

The BumpMaster is a skill ship / list. I only expect the top 5% - 10% to really be able to fully utilize it well. It takes some homework on your openings, deployments, and rock placements to really make it shine. But give the list to someone like Aaron Bonar for a week, and lookout. I'm reasonably confident that if Aaron were to play this particular list vs Jeremy Howard's Palp Aces, Aaron would win around 80% of the time.

 

I don't think you understand how badly this list (like any control list) actually WANTS to fly against action and AGI-dependent Aces. I have yet to lose to Palp Aces with this list. I have flown vs multiple Store Champions who won with Palp Aces. It's a really fun matchup and favors positional flying skill over simple dice mods, but I feel the control list has the advantage. For that matter, control lists in general should beat Palp Aces. I never lost to Palp Aces on the table with Maximum Danger Zone either. You beat the aces by controlling them, and the more I play this list, the more I am thinking that the BumpMaster (especially the greedy intimidation version instead of Adaptability) is the best control ship in the game when it moves first.

 

 

That a lot of assumptions about dice results.

 

0 assumptions, that's how the game actually played out. :)  Omega Leader was marked for death and had close to a 0% chance of survival in that scenario. The only action Omega Leader ever got was taking the initial evade for Comm Rely. Getting Wampa for free was a nice bonus.

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I set my ships up alongside each other and fortressed round 1 (hard turns into each other) to see where he was going.

Okay, that's the critical piece of information I didn't have. I wondered how Omega Leader could be blocked by your Bumpmaster on round 0.

I would also note that you're an unusually skilled player. What you've really demonstrated with this anecdote is that triple JumpMasters, especially when they're actually double U-boats and a designated blocker, have a much higher skill ceiling than quad TLTs, which were last wave's The Sky Is Falling list--not necessarily that this wave's The Sky Is Falling list is actually overpowered.  ;)

 

Personally, I'm leaning toward the idea that I wish Deadeye were unique, because that would force some more interesting listbuilding decisions without putting the idea of a flexible torpedo boat completely out of the question--but I'm not yet convinced any change is necessary. There are a lot of ways to build lists that can tank 3-4 torpedoes worth of damage without falling apart, although it's definitely tough to build lists that can avoid that damage indefinitely the way arc-dodgers are used to doing.

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eh, unique deadeye wouldn't help too much

 

you'd replace a torp boat with a 33 point PS 9 Dengar-caddie Zuckuss (+ title) for a total of 1 torp boat, 1 bumpmaster, and Mr. Loves Unmodified Green Dice, who basically hits as hard as a torp boat anyway

 

 

 

 

it's not as fun, though. Derping around with two torp boats, one with Zuckuss and one with 4-lom, and having Manaroo try to manage all their shenanigans with her dead-eye enabling ability is some of the most fun I've had in this game

Edited by ficklegreendice

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You beat the aces by controlling them, and the more I play this list, the more I am thinking that the BumpMaster (especially the greedy intimidation version instead of Adaptability) is the best control ship in the game when it moves first.

 

The question of Intimidation (2 pts) is really interesting to me. Would you not rather prefer:

(1) Manaroo (+2 pts) with adaptability (0 pts; -1 PS to move at PS3) to share focus tokens;

(2) Feedback array on a second ship;

(3) Additional crew, e.g. Zuckuss/4-LOM/Fett (if you haven't already taken him)

 

The first option allows one of your torpedo boats to 4k turn after the first pass and still get off a second shot. The second option creates an even larger no-fly zone for aces. I'm less bullish on the third option but I've seen those crew combinations work in other scenarios.

 

Intimidation can also be very strong - and in some ways can be thought of as an anti-Palp tool, because he cannot modify dice that aren't rolled - so I'm having the hardest time deciding what to spend most of my time working on.

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I think Intimidation is pretty cool for a dedicated bumping ship. All of the options you've presented are very good so it's hard to say it's definitively better but intimidation has some great potential. After all, it's not damage that counts, it's damage past the green dice and especially since you're down to two torp boats I think it's pretty nice. If it means one more damage so you can sneak a crit past the shields, it's really paid for itself.

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[edit] This was my round 5 game (4-0 vs 4-0) at last weekend's 36 player store championship.

I don't understand why they just let that happen to themselves. I'm sure you flew well but it sounds like they flew like a paper bag or just couldn't puzzle out the (fairly obvious) point of your list. If there's 1 big ship on the enemy side and it has a barrel roll and is clearly purpose built for blocking and messing a blocked nerd up I think the only ship you want to think about touching that with is the shuttle. Aces should split up a bit then let the shuttle lead off and bump/tank the alpha while they come in from various obtuse angles.

 

 I set my ships up alongside each other and fortressed round 1 (hard turns into each other) to see where he was going. 

 

 

 

You should have  just revealed all your dials at the same time and say, "Whoops!  I don't get actions and can't move!"

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I set my ships up alongside each other and fortressed round 1 (hard turns into each other) to see where he was going.

Okay, that's the critical piece of information I didn't have. I wondered how Omega Leader could be blocked by your Bumpmaster on round 0.

 

Yeah, that's one strategy. I'm working out some others.

 

Omega Leader bumped on turn 3, which was the first round were dice were rolled, but it was set in motion on turn 0. :)

 

 

 

I would also note that you're an unusually skilled player. What you've really demonstrated with this anecdote is that triple JumpMasters, especially when they're actually double U-boats and a designated blocker, have a much higher skill ceiling than quad TLTs, which were last wave's The Sky Is Falling list--not necessarily that this wave's The Sky Is Falling list is actually overpowered.  ;)

 

Thanks for the kind words. I do agree that it has a higher skill cap than TLT Y-wings, and in particular has a higher turn 0 skill cap. I specifically choose the BumpMaster because I wanted to make games about flying and not dice. It's more fun, and also more reliable in tournaments.

 

 

 

You beat the aces by controlling them, and the more I play this list, the more I am thinking that the BumpMaster (especially the greedy intimidation version instead of Adaptability) is the best control ship in the game when it moves first.

 

The question of Intimidation (2 pts) is really interesting to me. Would you not rather prefer:

(1) Manaroo (+2 pts) with adaptability (0 pts; -1 PS to move at PS3) to share focus tokens;

(2) Feedback array on a second ship;

(3) Additional crew, e.g. Zuckuss/4-LOM/Fett (if you haven't already taken him)

 

The first option allows one of your torpedo boats to 4k turn after the first pass and still get off a second shot. The second option creates an even larger no-fly zone for aces. I'm less bullish on the third option but I've seen those crew combinations work in other scenarios.

 

I'm toying with dropping down to Adaptability and spending the extra 2 points to upgrade the OCR4 to R4 on the Plasma Boat, and adding 4LOM crew. It's still 99 for the initiative bid. I'll probably try it out.

 

I have seen multiple Feedback Arrays. I'm not sure that it's necessary though, and 2 points can get you enough other stuff to significantly help in-game tactics. For optimal list building every point needs to be doing something. X-wing = moneyball.

 

I have a hard time with Manaroo. If you make that ship the BumpMaster, it wants to spend its action on barrel rolling 90% of the time in combat anyway, so the pilot ability isn't useful. And if you load it up with Torpedoes then you want to keep your tokens, and the pilot ability still isn't useful.

 

 

 I set my ships up alongside each other and fortressed round 1 (hard turns into each other) to see where he was going. 

 

You should have  just revealed all your dials at the same time and say, "Whoops!  I don't get actions and can't move!"

 

 

Ha ha, yes, except in this case you actually can't move!

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Over 20+ years of wargaming,one of the strangest skills I've found most people lack is the ability to see things from the other side of the table. If you can do that, if you can see your opponent's force and say to yourself, "Okay, if I were trying to beat ME with THAT force, what would I do?" you're halfway to winning.

 

He failed in that and you succeeded, because you saw that OL was the late-game threat to your list, and he was apparently, "PROTECT THE EMPEROR!" like this was 40k and not Star Wars.

 

Though I've personally dropped Palpaces in favor of other lists, I think that just changing tactics from "preserving Palpatine" to "sacrificing Palpatine ASAP" is a solid choice - and it's not as though the Bumpmaster squad can just ignore Palpatine as he's turning the tables and making THEM bump to lose their precious Focus while still firing at anything in arc.

 

I've been testing out Whisper+RAC against Bumpmaster, and I've found that using a veteran player's desire to chase Whisper is surprisingly effective, as Whisper can lead multiple ships on a merry chase while RAC guns them down.

Edited by iamfanboy

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Over 20+ years of wargaming,one of the strangest skills I've found most people lack is the ability to see things from the other side of the table. If you can do that, if you can see your opponent's force and say to yourself, "Okay, if I were trying to beat ME with THAT force, what would I do?" you're halfway to winning.

 

True enough in any wargame. Even better than gedankenexperiment, actually put that force on the table and play it a bit is the best way to find weaknesses. With X-wing the first time I faced phantoms on the table, they seemed to be the most broken thing I've experienced - then I bought one and boy there were a lot of downsides I hadn't appreciated.

 

But in this case, triple U-boats is pretty easy to fly. The lopsided dial certainly takes a bit of getting used to and there's an art to bumping the enemy and not getting bumped in return but the sheer durability, flexibility and damage output of this list makes it seem pretty **** solid flying it as well as facing it. The flip side of what you're saying is when you run a list and the feeling is "whoa, this seems pretty **** solid" it probably is pretty good and that's the feeling I get with the triple U-boat. I suspect that the U-boats will leave a big dent in the meta. The meta will warp around them as such things do, but it's going to take some time.

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Honestly, I still think palp aces are the list to beat

 

Jumpmasters are a powerhouse, no doubt about it, but you're not hitting through palp aces without action denial and help from feedback; especially not the one left over after you've spent your torps

And all Palpaces needs to do is a modification of strategy - knowing that 2-dice PWT can't hit Soontir and Vader reliably, they drive the shuttle straight up the middle and dare the JM player to use his torps on it while the Aces flank. Also, blocking with the shuttle is a thing too.
I'm just wondering why is the jumpmaster player forced to use torps instead of a 3'atk primary at range 1.

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Honestly, I still think palp aces are the list to beat

 

Jumpmasters are a powerhouse, no doubt about it, but you're not hitting through palp aces without action denial and help from feedback; especially not the one left over after you've spent your torps

And all Palpaces needs to do is a modification of strategy - knowing that 2-dice PWT can't hit Soontir and Vader reliably, they drive the shuttle straight up the middle and dare the JM player to use his torps on it while the Aces flank. Also, blocking with the shuttle is a thing too.
I'm just wondering why is the jumpmaster player forced to use torps instead of a 3'atk primary at range 1.

 

Using primaries will take longer, let the shuttle get in close where it can make a nuisance of itself blocking and slinging 4 attack dice, and give the Aces an exposed flank to rip into. The PalpAce player still gets what he wants.

Edited by DR4CO

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This is the next list that I will playtest. 3 feedback arrays. Bring your aces, baby!

Triple JM5K Take2 (100)

Contracted Scout (34) - JumpMaster 5000

Deadeye (1), Plasma Torpedoes (3), Extra Munitions (2), Overclocked R4 (1), Feedback Array (2), Guidance Chips (0)

Contracted Scout (36) - JumpMaster 5000

Deadeye (1), Proton Torpedoes (4), Extra Munitions (2), R4 Agromech (2), Feedback Array (2), Guidance Chips (0)

Contracted Scout (30) - JumpMaster 5000

Intimidation (2), Intelligence Agent (1), Feedback Array (2)

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This is the next list that I will playtest. 3 feedback arrays. Bring your aces, baby!

Triple JM5K Take2 (100)

Contracted Scout (34) - JumpMaster 5000

Deadeye (1), Plasma Torpedoes (3), Extra Munitions (2), Overclocked R4 (1), Feedback Array (2), Guidance Chips (0)

Contracted Scout (36) - JumpMaster 5000

Deadeye (1), Proton Torpedoes (4), Extra Munitions (2), R4 Agromech (2), Feedback Array (2), Guidance Chips (0)

Contracted Scout (30) - JumpMaster 5000

Intimidation (2), Intelligence Agent (1), Feedback Array (2)

This is a list I thought about too. But I didn't use Intimidation to have Proton Torpedoes and R4 Agromech on both UBoats.

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