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Skargoth

Accused of Loaded Dice

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Events like this build character, getting all shaken because someone you barely know assumed you cheat is something you should get rid off anyway.

This ^

Most of the time it's us (bad positioning/target priority) who loses the match not dice, yet that's number one excuse educated grown ups use to justify a loss.

If you plan to compete be ready for that kind of commentary and stay above by graciously say 'sorry' if having lucky shots, your opponent just needs an excuse to feel better , give it to him/her and collect your acrylics ;)

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Events like this build character, getting all shaken because someone you barely know assumed you cheat is something you should get rid off anyway.

This ^

Most of the time it's us (bad positioning/target priority) who loses the match not dice, yet that's number one excuse educated grown ups use to justify a loss.

If you plan to compete be ready for that kind of commentary and stay above by graciously say 'sorry' if having lucky shots, your opponent just needs an excuse to feel better , give it to him/her and collect your acrylics ;)

 

 

I agree that staying cool and composed is a really important talent(I play with the OP IRL), but this kind of thing is really tailor-made to throw off somebody's mind.  I don't know how I would feel if it were just intimated to me.

 

Any kind of TO direct action like that is going to hit someone mentally, but the way it was done as it sounds in this post is really unprofessional and just wrong.  If you think someone is cheating, then deal with it.  If you don't think someone is cheating, then say absolutely nothing, but don't do this in-between thing where you hide behind "well, other players are saying this but you could clear your name if you did this".  Presenting it as a choice is absolutely the worst thing because that kind of accusation makes it really no choice while taking all the responsibility off the TO.

 

I would've been there with the other guys if I hadn't already won the local SC here and the OP is definitely good enough to win- he made the top 4 at that one as well.

Edited by Panzeh

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At the same time, no one should feel shamed into having to use their opponents dice.

A player doesn't have to clear their name if they've done nothing wrong, and if someone wants to push the issue with loaded dice they'd better have better evidence than 'Well, we rolled them a couple of times and they seemed pretty lucky'.

If a TO asked me to switch dice because he thought I might be cheating, I'd be telling him there are two potential outcomes. Either I continue using my dice, or you eject me from the event. But I ain't changing dice to satisfy the unsubstantianed claims of a sore loser.

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Events like this build character, getting all shaken because someone you barely know assumed you cheat is something you should get rid off anyway.

This ^

Most of the time it's us (bad positioning/target priority) who loses the match not dice, yet that's number one excuse educated grown ups use to justify a loss.

If you plan to compete be ready for that kind of commentary and stay above by graciously say 'sorry' if having lucky shots, your opponent just needs an excuse to feel better , give it to him/her and collect your acrylics ;)

 

 

I agree that staying cool and composed is a really important talent(I play with the OP IRL), but this kind of thing is really tailor-made to throw off somebody's mind.  I don't know how I would feel if it were just intimated to me.

 

Any kind of TO direct action like that is going to hit someone mentally, but the way it was done as it sounds in this post is really unprofessional and just wrong.  If you think someone is cheating, then deal with it.  If you don't think someone is cheating, then say absolutely nothing, but don't do this in-between thing where you hide behind "well, other players are saying this but you could clear your name if you did this".  Presenting it as a choice is absolutely the worst thing because that kind of accusation makes it really no choice while taking all the responsibility off the TO.

 

I would've been there with the other guys if I hadn't already won the local SC here and the OP is definitely good enough to win- he made the top 4 at that one as well.

 

 

Getting your opponent off balance is one key element for any direct competitive sports. You simply play mind games. That is how it works and TO give him simply the option to play with new dice. Not that I would have picked that option, I would have insisted on the TO testing my dice. But in the end, whatever the TO would have done about this, the OP would have been thrown off because he was simply nervous about it. Mental strength in competitive environments and his opponents had for sure deal with their own issues. Next tourney the OP should be more experienced and less likely the be thrown off. And simply sharing dice and maneuvers for this fluffy feeling that this will not happen again.  :)

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I reckon the TO did the right thing in one way, but I think a better solution would be to set up the top table with the store's templates and dice and say both players should use the same ones. No accusations or explanations.

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Getting your opponent off balance is one key element for any direct competitive sports. You simply play mind games. That is how it works and TO give him simply the option to play with new dice. Not that I would have picked that option, I would have insisted on the TO testing my dice. But in the end, whatever the TO would have done about this, the OP would have been thrown off because he was simply nervous about it. Mental strength in competitive environments and his opponents had for sure deal with their own issues. Next tourney the OP should be more experienced and less likely the be thrown off. And simply sharing dice and maneuvers for this fluffy feeling that this will not happen again.   :)

 

 

I don't think the TO should be taking part in mind games- as I said before, it was unprofessional and a really dumb in-between choice.  TOs in tournaments should make themselves as unobtrusive as possible.  Unfortunately the choice taken was the most obtrusive possible.  Either just make a decision and do it or don't.  What happened as posted in the OP was a non-decision.

 

I agree that the part you can control is yourself, but that doesn't excuse the TO for handling this badly.

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It was the easiest option for the TO really. Just take new dice and everyone will shut up. Checking the dice would have made a more big deal out of it and waste a lot of time of the TO over a minor issue. But hey, as I said, I would still insisted that the TO check my dice, while I can totally understand the lazy and unprofessional approach of the TO. 

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I once had a sore loser start picking up and rolling my dice, without asking, because he thought they weren't fair. He's pointing out how many hits and evades they're rolling -- after I'd had a bunch of blank-outs, too -- so I simply offered to allow him to use them, or told him I'd use his. He shut up after that.

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I once had a sore loser start picking up and rolling my dice, without asking, because he thought they weren't fair. He's pointing out how many hits and evades they're rolling -- after I'd had a bunch of blank-outs, too -- so I simply offered to allow him to use them, or told him I'd use his. He shut up after that.

I would give anyone that option because I know how frustrating those cold streaks vs hot opponents can be and as stated I'm not superstitious or anything about my dice. No one addressed things with me directly, besides the side comments like "****, hot dice."

And I do say "sorry" when I roll consistently hot against a cold opponent. Again, empathetic to that frustration.

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You go to someone else's town and you're at their mercy. Sounds like they had the Sore Loser Click in full press mode. The TO system is wack. I don't know why anyone would agree to change dice.

 

Because there's no disadvantage in doing so but prevents any accusation of defective dice? I'm honestly not seeing what the TO did wrong here.

 

There's no way I would have agreed to switch dice. That's bowing to pressure when you've done nothing wrong. It's lending legitimacy to baseless claims.

 

Quite the opposite. Switching dice changes nothing in terms of probability unless your dice are loaded: you have no motive to refuse unless your dice are loaded.

 

Wait, no observations? Pathetic.

 

What exactly would observing a game achieve? You can't tell if dice are loaded by watching someone roll them.

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First, it's obviously a little silly to lodge a complaint about loaded dice, because it's impossible to take a statistically meaningful sample over the course of a single tournament. It's always easy to blame the dice for a loss, instead of your list-building or your play.

Second, I sympathize with the TO. Once someone has made a complaint, it's the TO's job to take it seriously. And--for the same reason it's silly to accuse someone of using loaded dice--neither you nor the TO can prove your dice aren't loaded. So he made a reasonable suggestion: swap your dice for an unimpeachably new set.

I'm really sorry this ruined your experience, though. Hopefully you have at least one more event to look forward to, with less litigious competitors!

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Skargoth: those poor saps have no understanding of "loaded dice" or the actual effects of such. I loaded 2d6 back in the 90's (for entertainment purposes only!). It raised the average roll from 7 to 8. Loading a d8 would bring perhaps a 12.5% advantage and be extremely difficult. It would be easier to use a semi-controlled shot by using a dice cup (beware of such!). Sorry you got rattled. Bet it won't happen again.... : )

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Try using Horton and have a focus and then get called for loaded dice....

 

People are going to find whatever excuses they need to make a loss seem like something out of their control.  Its hard for some folks as they feel that there is some sort of top secret black market for x wing dice out there.  This is something that you will come across in competitive gaming and the best solution is just to offer them to roll the dice on their turns. 

 

As for going to regionals you better plan on showing up because if you don't this will only confirm their suspicions.

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Although I sympathise with your mindset and that it caused your head not to be in the game (I imagine if such an accusation were levelled at me I'd feel the same way, although that is unlikely unless people think I'm loading my dice to roll blanks), I think the TO probably handled things as well as they could. I imagine the quickest resolution for them would be to simply swap your dice. I might have thought first steps may have been to casually observe one of your matches to see if your dice are behaving unusually or something, but I suppose swapping the dice is quicker.

Did they examine your dice at all first or did they go straight to offering the fresh pack?

Wrong, the TO handled it piss poorly, and so did the people accusing him of loaded dice.

First, there was no chance for the player to know who these accusers were.

Second, the TO took the complaints at face value, and didn't choose to take measures until the final four game.

Third, if there was a complaint, the TO should have immediately examined the dice or observed a game.

Fourth, no action was taken until an out of town player threatened to come in and win the tournament.

All of this would have had me screaming mad. I get it. You don't want someone to come from somewhere miles away and make off with your precious hunks of plastic (range ruler, I believe) you feel entitled to. But if it bothers you, fly better. This was poor sportsmanship and protectionism. Seen it repeatedly in W40K tournaments where TO bias, enforcing bizarre house rules, and creative (i.e. Whatever favored the local) rules interpretations were taken for granted.

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You go to someone else's town and you're at their mercy. Sounds like they had the Sore Loser Click in full press mode. The TO system is wack. I don't know why anyone would agree to change dice.

The fact TOs are allowed to compete, even with a secondary TO, is the major piece of BS that FFG seriously needs to reconsider on all levels of competitive play.

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You go to someone else's town and you're at their mercy. Sounds like they had the Sore Loser Click in full press mode. The TO system is wack. I don't know why anyone would agree to change dice.

The fact TOs are allowed to compete, even with a secondary TO, is the major piece of BS that FFG seriously needs to reconsider on all levels of competitive play.

There's no way I would have agreed to switch dice. That's bowing to pressure when you've done nothing wrong. It's lending legitimacy to baseless claims.

At that point I was very shaken up and was of the mindset to do anything to clear my name. Unfortunately, being shaken up also means I played like garbage. I think that bothers me most. Now that I lost with the "neutral dice" it must mean I had done something shady.

This is the location that's hosting the only Regionals in my area (yay, peninsula of Florida) so now I don't know what to do. I show up and the local clique start gossiping? My friends and I came here to check out the environment, now no one wants to come back.

I'd go, and then invoke the rule that both players use the same dice and templates and demand to use THEIR dice.

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Although I sympathise with your mindset and that it caused your head not to be in the game (I imagine if such an accusation were levelled at me I'd feel the same way, although that is unlikely unless people think I'm loading my dice to roll blanks), I think the TO probably handled things as well as they could. I imagine the quickest resolution for them would be to simply swap your dice. I might have thought first steps may have been to casually observe one of your matches to see if your dice are behaving unusually or something, but I suppose swapping the dice is quicker.

Did they examine your dice at all first or did they go straight to offering the fresh pack?

Wrong, the TO handled it piss poorly, and so did the people accusing him of loaded dice.

First, there was no chance for the player to know who these accusers were.

Second, the TO took the complaints at face value, and didn't choose to take measures until the final four game.

Third, if there was a complaint, the TO should have immediately examined the dice or observed a game.

Fourth, no action was taken until an out of town player threatened to come in and win the tournament.

All of this would have had me screaming mad. I get it. You don't want someone to come from somewhere miles away and make off with your precious hunks of plastic (range ruler, I believe) you feel entitled to. But if it bothers you, fly better. This was poor sportsmanship and protectionism. Seen it repeatedly in W40K tournaments where TO bias, enforcing bizarre house rules, and creative (i.e. Whatever favored the local) rules interpretations were taken for granted.

Let me stop you right here as I was a witness at the event before you continue to make more false accusations.

First, the player was aware of at least one accusser when he witnessed him checking his dice after a match.

Second, The TO got the 3rd complaint after the Top 8 game, so this was when they felt it warranted taking an action.

Third, the TO DID examine the dice, and felt it warranted approaching the player and asking him what he would like to do (continue using his dice, use another set/dice app).

Fourth, all 4 players in the top 4 were out of town.

I love people that come to conclusions and make false claims! Let's talk facts here people.

The TOs were in a tough position and had to approach the player. He was never accused by the TOs and was given a CHOICE on what he'd like to do. We'd be having this rant by someone else that said a player was accused of having tampered dice 3 times and the TOs did nothing to address the situation.

Edited by VaynMaanen

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All the TO needed to do was take a look at the players list, and realize that there is a ton of dice manipulation built into his squad. Of course the dice will be good, that's by design.

Conversations need to be had with the accusers about their perception of good dice. The human brain isn't very good at recognizing random events. This is also why observing his games wouldn't accomplish anything either (and too small a sample size).

A conversation should also be had with the accused, rather than going through his things. That is completely unfair, and in no circumstances is it socially acceptable to do this.

Personally, I would not have agreed to use new dice. I worked hard last year to earn two sets of regional dice. I am going to use them. If my opponent wants to use them too, that's fine. With that being said, I understand why OP agreed to use new dice. He was in a lose-lose situation.

That's an all around crappy situation. I hope it doesn't affect your future enjoyment of tournaments.

Edited by Criwi Romed

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If you seriously think someone's cheating, you don't give them a choice.  You just say "In the final rounds you will use the same dice as your opponent."

 

That's what good TOing is, not "Look, you can clear your name if you use the dice app or some fresh dice".  Remember that his list has HLCs so a single set of 3 dice is inconvenient.

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Although I sympathise with your mindset and that it caused your head not to be in the game (I imagine if such an accusation were levelled at me I'd feel the same way, although that is unlikely unless people think I'm loading my dice to roll blanks), I think the TO probably handled things as well as they could. I imagine the quickest resolution for them would be to simply swap your dice. I might have thought first steps may have been to casually observe one of your matches to see if your dice are behaving unusually or something, but I suppose swapping the dice is quicker.

Did they examine your dice at all first or did they go straight to offering the fresh pack?

Wrong, the TO handled it piss poorly, and so did the people accusing him of loaded dice.

First, there was no chance for the player to know who these accusers were.

Second, the TO took the complaints at face value, and didn't choose to take measures until the final four game.

Third, if there was a complaint, the TO should have immediately examined the dice or observed a game.

Fourth, no action was taken until an out of town player threatened to come in and win the tournament.

All of this would have had me screaming mad. I get it. You don't want someone to come from somewhere miles away and make off with your precious hunks of plastic (range ruler, I believe) you feel entitled to. But if it bothers you, fly better. This was poor sportsmanship and protectionism. Seen it repeatedly in W40K tournaments where TO bias, enforcing bizarre house rules, and creative (i.e. Whatever favored the local) rules interpretations were taken for granted.

Let me stop you right here as I was a witness at the event before you continue to make more false accusations.

First, the player was aware of at least one accusser when he witnessed him checking his dice after a match.

Second, The TO got the 3rd complaint after the Top 8 game, so this was when they felt it warranted taking an action.

Third, the TO DID examine the dice, and felt it warranted approaching the player and asking him what he would like to do (continue using his dice, use another set/dice app).

Fourth, all 4 players in the top 4 were out of town.

I love people that come to conclusions and make false claims! Let's talk facts here people.

The TOs were in a tough position and had to approach the player. He was never accused by the TOs and was given a CHOICE on what he'd like to do. We'd be having this rant by someone else that said a player was accused of having tampered dice 3 times and the TOs did nothing to address the situation.

 

 

Yes, the TO was in a tough position but he punted instead of making a decision, which is his job. HE should have made the choice of what the player should use and honestly, if he saw no overt signs of dice tampering, he should have let the player keep using his dice and tell the complainers that that was his decision.

 

It's been proven that FFG dice are not manufactured to Vegas casino standards by any stretch of the imagination. Also, baking dice is a lot harder than people think it is. So by giving the player the choice, TO is essentially saying "This decision is too hard for me to make, I am going to be passive aggressive about this and let you choose. But because I'm making you choose, you now have the stink of guilty on you." If the TO even thought there was the hint of cheating, he should have suspended the player and let FFG OP know. That's what it's there for now. But by letting him choose to play with other dice instead of his own, TO is basically saying "You cheated to get here, but go ahead and play with new dice because that will make me look good."

 

I would rather see people complain here about people accusing others because honestly, we all know who is out in the community that is always complaining. In this instance, TO did do something to address the situation: HE LOOKED AT THE DICE. I would rather have that than have some poor guy get accused of cheating just because he won and got the rolls. It happens. THAT IS THE GAME.

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I'm no expert on loaded dice but something I've thought of that may help with this issue ever coming up is if ffg used transparent dice? I know they use them as prizes but wouldn't that also help with loaded dice as well? I know there are different ways to change dice and again I know very little about it but having transparent dice would make it hard to also mark certain sides of dice. Or I could be wrong with all these suggestions Haha. Just my 2 cents. Also I really want transparent dice from ffg so I could be biased to that too.

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You don't have enough of a sample size to make any kind of informed decision about a player's dice from one game, or even a few games, unless they're obviously and manifestly weighted to ALWAYS give one result. So watching you play a game would have been a pointless response. Dice swap is the best, fastest, and easiest way to go about it.

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I don't know what the best resolution was, I really just wonder if there was a way to do it without screwing up my head. I genuinely feel the officials threw the tournament for me. Imagine just playing normal and being picked out. 7/8 rounds 5am wake up 2.5 hour drive. Was flying high, then got shot down.

I didn't want to mention these details, but I can't help but feel it is relevant. One of the TOs husband was my final Swiss opponent. He seemed super cool, but he made an offhand comment about dice. He was running 4 TLT Y and I nearly always had Autothrusters due to angle or range. Then my top 8 I played a nice enough guy who ran VI IGB no GS and two TLT Y, but he turned salty quick for the same reasons. I knew to target his IG first, Crackshot it down, and then it was similar TLT Y vs IG favor. He's the one who examined my dice cup and dice while I was across the room talking to my friends. Of course after the fact he was sitting and conversing with the previous 4 TLT guy. They say many of the top were "not local," but I know the top 8 guy I beat was only 90 minutes away and clearly knew the people there.

Again, I had no problem finding some other dice resolution, but the way the situation was presented as it was could only cause me great anxiety.

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