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Firespray-32

Dual Cards and the X-Wing Fix

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The problem I have with IA as the fix, is it then limits other options for the T-65, no EU, no Hull, no Shield, no Chimps. That's why I strongly feel it needs a title to allow 2 mods (I now it's already been done). For the dual card, it could be interesting to give it an option to add an extra mod on one side or and extra EPT on the other(preferably with a discount if you equipment 2 mods or 2 EPT, like a 2 point discount if you equipment a 2+ point mod/ept). The T-65 was supposed to be a flexible fighter, that could add to its flexibility.

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The problem I have with IA as the fix, is it then limits other options for the T-65, no EU, no Hull, no Shield, no Chimps. That's why I strongly feel it needs a title to allow 2 mods (I now it's already been done). For the dual card, it could be interesting to give it an option to add an extra mod on one side or and extra EPT on the other(preferably with a discount if you equipment 2 mods or 2 EPT, like a 2 point discount if you equipment a 2+ point mod/ept). The T-65 was supposed to be a flexible fighter, that could add to its flexibility.

Of the mods available to the x-wing, IA is better than just about every single one. It's wildly better than hull upgrade, about equal to a shield. Munitions failsafe is a dead card, targeting computer doesn't apply. Stealth device isn't ideal, as it's expensive and likely to fail on the first try. Engine upgrade is expensive and doesn't fix the x-wing. That leaves experimental interface, which is expensive, has drawbacks and only works if you sink more points into it.

Yes, you can't use guidance chips. If you want 4 proton torpedo carriers you should be using y-wings anyway. Next question?

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Integrated astromech fixed the x-wing.

It did not need something massive.

It wasn't. It does. They are bad. Goodnight.

Tell that to my regional bye.

OH NO! You just blew MJ's jousting stats, list juggler results, the designers themselves comments on the ship and the personal accounts of everyone but yourself away with that one anecdote! I guess one person winning a store championship with an X-Wing in their list proves that they're a top tier ship up there with Soontir and Vader!

I mean yeah. I did. More than once. Those numbers are statistical averages, and in a vacuum. They aren't law. Maybe get better at the game and then get back at me.

 

 

Ah yes, 'git gud', the clever man's response.

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Integrated astromech fixed the x-wing.

It did not need something massive.

It wasn't. It does. They are bad. Goodnight.

Tell that to my regional bye.

OH NO! You just blew MJ's jousting stats, list juggler results, the designers themselves comments on the ship and the personal accounts of everyone but yourself away with that one anecdote! I guess one person winning a store championship with an X-Wing in their list proves that they're a top tier ship up there with Soontir and Vader!

I mean yeah. I did. More than once. Those numbers are statistical averages, and in a vacuum. They aren't law. Maybe get better at the game and then get back at me.

 

Ah yes, 'git gud', the clever man's response.

So if I'm dumb and I win, what does that make you?

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Alright, I'm coming to this conversation as an Empire only player. It's been the one and only faction I've played since wave 1. First off, YES, the x-wing pretty obviously needs a small push in the right direction still. What they can do to give it that push, and it still have a unique role in a rebel fleet, I don't know. I think it's biggest problem is it is simply out dated, and I can't off hand think of an easy way to fix that.

From my Imperial point of view, the first ship fix we recieved was Imperial aces, and afterward Tie Interceptors still weren't quite there (I'm not saying Soontir Fel wasn't good, I'm saying he and every other interceptor died to the Falcon.) So they supplemented it with Autothrusters, and now Interceptors can be seen featured in most Imperial lists. (only 2 ever really see play though, Carnor and Fel.) The next ship that was fixed for us was a nerf, and rightfully so the phantom was disgusting. It's in a much healthier place now and I'm happy to fly them. The Tie advanced was next and man thats a great ship now, if tlt's didn't kill them so hard I'm sure I'd love to fly more of them. (I still fly a squad of four fairly often) next up were getting a fix for the defender, and yeah, since they can't just erratta points costs, it needed it. The cannon title would be ludicrous if not for a far cheaper Y-wing doing the same thing only more disgustingly with r3-a2. The Bomber is getting a completely unnecessary fix, plus a title that completely changes the ship and oddly even though I love defenders, I find myself more excited by the bombers.

I hope that whatever they do to the x-wing, it makes it see the table. I also hope they don't fix it, and then introduce it's anathema in half a wave like the advanced recieved with tlt. It's difficult for ffg to fix because of all the pilots on the X. Trying not to break any of them while making the X viable is surely a challenge. I look forward to a spell of less tlt's and poe miranda regen when all of those excellent pilots can fly a healthy craft.

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Integrated astromech fixed the x-wing.

It did not need something massive.

It wasn't. It does. They are bad. Goodnight.

Tell that to my regional bye.

OH NO! You just blew MJ's jousting stats, list juggler results, the designers themselves comments on the ship and the personal accounts of everyone but yourself away with that one anecdote! I guess one person winning a store championship with an X-Wing in their list proves that they're a top tier ship up there with Soontir and Vader!

I mean yeah. I did. More than once. Those numbers are statistical averages, and in a vacuum. They aren't law. Maybe get better at the game and then get back at me.

 

Ah yes, 'git gud', the clever man's response.

So if I'm dumb and I win, what does that make you?

 

 

The attack was against your attack, and admit it "get better at the game" is indeed simply a stupid statement in a balance discussion. 

Instead you could make a clever argument via explaining why you still win when you have a statistical disadvantage. Which is either related that your opponents should "git gud", something special about your list or the X-Wing maneuver dial.

If it is not that your opponents just suck then it would actually worth exploring in this discussion. 

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I think people don't realize that the x wing shouldn't be the top tier or at the bottom. It is supposed to be the middle of the road ship that the rest is compared too.

In an ideal world, there wouldn't BE any tiers. All ships would be good value for points.

I think a 0-point title that adds barrel roll to their action bar is all the X Wing needs. Coupled with IA, it is now the same ship you were always flying but with an extra 'shield' and the ability to barrel roll. I will never understand why the X Wing can't barrel roll but the B Wing can.

Failing that, simply giving the ship 4 red dice so it can joust like a mother-****** would be good. Yes, that's five dice at close range. Yes, that makes Wedge a beast. But gee it would be great if X Wings were suddenly a good buy and we could stop seeing TLT spam on every table!

Edited by Chucknuckle

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IRL, the slower a plane is, the easier it is to do weird maneuvers - doing a barrel roll in a prop plane is no big deal but in a jet will almost certainly black you out.

 

That being said, I do like the idea of X-Wings getting the short-range bonus out to Range 2.

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IRL, the slower a plane is, the easier it is to do weird maneuvers - doing a barrel roll in a prop plane is no big deal but in a jet will almost certainly black you out.

Then let's take the barrel roll away from the TIE Interceptor, and listen to Soontir howl!

Edited by Chucknuckle

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Imperials are the only faction whose fixes define the meta. Imperials have their wants and desires catered to. That's why we need a good X-Wing fix.

That's why the current meta is full of stress hogs (so imperial) brobots (yes, imperial) and lots of ps10 Poe. (Another imperial)

Yeah that was sarcasm, just in case.

How can you say that imperials get all the fancy stuff when any ship released for that faction sucks at the beginning and doesn't see play needing a later fix?

Take the Punisher. Do you see it on the tables ? Here in Europe we don't.

Bombers? Nay. Defenders? We all wait for imperial Vets and I still doubt that it will have such great effect on the meta.

The only advanced that sees the tables is Vader.

Only interceptor is Fel.

The imperial Firespray has vanished, while Scum Boba + VI is all over the place.

Only some brave use the Phantom with some cunning ideas but most of the time they can't win more than a couple of matches.

Yeah the imperials define the meta.

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IRL, the slower a plane is, the easier it is to do weird maneuvers - doing a barrel roll in a prop plane is no big deal but in a jet will almost certainly black you out.

Then let's take the barrel roll away from the TIE Interceptor, and listen to Soontir howl!

 

Then let's take it from the same source that the game did: the movies. The B-Wing plainly barrel rolls multiple times, rotating around its cockpit to give a 'stable' firing platform. TIEs of all brands barrel roll (aside from the TIE Bomber) presumably because its wing/engine structure lets it do so easily in vacuum. X-Wings and Y-Wings, on the other hand, don't. Neither do A-Wings. Therefore they don't get the barrel roll action.

 

Getting into the EU is iffier but I think that they've decided Rebels is the faction that has reliability in firepower and defenses, whereas the Empire is the faction that relies on maneuverability and piloting. I'm an Empire player mostly by default, I think I'd've preferred the reliability of the Alliance had I known more about the game before buying into it, but it is what it is.

 

 

I'm in this thread because I've seen X-Wings across from me on the table and I recognize that in terms of tier lists, they're flat C-tier: worse than all other options, definitely in need of buffs. The fact that they KEEP GETTING BUFFS is irrelevant, because if those buffs worked than we wouldn't still be having this argument. 

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Then let's take it from the same source that the game did: the movies. The B-Wing plainly barrel rolls multiple times, rotating around its cockpit to give a 'stable' firing platform. TIEs of all brands barrel roll (aside from the TIE Bomber) presumably because its wing/engine structure lets it do so easily in vacuum. X-Wings and Y-Wings, on the other hand, don't. Neither do A-Wings. Therefore they don't get the barrel roll action.

giphy.gif

giphy.gif

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Before some discuss barrel rolls with more atmospheric examples, let's just say in space a barrel roll is just a roll and has more or less zero-g on the pilot. Faster or slower does not matter, rotational axis do not pull g because there is no air that will force you do make lateral movement along a roll. 
 
So basically a barrel roll in x-wing is just strafing (while rolling). Strafing pulls normal g's no matter your forward speed. On top of that, thanks to the rolling the g's lateral, and positive, which reduces the problems for the pilot furthermore. Agility of a ship is in this regard usually the key factor not speed for pulling high-g as the mostly the same thrusters can be used for strafing as they can be used for pitch/yaw. 
 
With that said, it makes sense that less agile X-Wings and Y-Wings do not barrel roll, but they left this out for the A-Wing. Why? Must have been some weird balancing concerns, which is a little silly in context that they added an elite later and people are still not happy about it when compared to TIE/LN which are base-line is 3 points cheaper and has a barrel roll over a shield point and a boost and an elite. 
 
And btw, the images show rolls, not barrel rolls.(edit: Ok I admit there is a slight barrel roll as in the first one, but that is not even enough to move the center of mass outside of the originals ship position)
 

barrel roll is an aerial maneuver in which an airplane makes a complete rotation on both its longitudinal and lateral axes, causing it to follow a helical path, approximately maintaining its original direction. It is sometimes described as a "combination of a loop and a roll.

 

 Rising_circular.gif

Edited by SEApocalypse

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Looks more like an evade action to me. :P Hey, now that's an idea! But didn't remember that scene. Maybe he had Expert Handling equipped? Heh.

 

Still, I'm not sure barrel rolling is the right action to add anyway. The TIE/AD had it for a very long time and it didn't become viable until they went beyond the action bar. The X-Wing is supposed to be a medium-speed dogfighter, not a slippery interceptor. Strengthening its attack or defense, or improving its action economy ("When you acquire a target lock, add a focus token/evade token to your ship"), WITHOUT just making the T-70 better (and failing the T-65!), should be the goal.

 

I think that's going to be the tricky part. By putting "X-Wing" in the name of the T-70 they've guaranteed that anything that might fix the T-65 will make the 70 that much better, without tricky wording like "X-Wings without T-70" or something.

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What went wrong with the T-65 fix? Well.

 

It's a shame that their newest 1pt Droid didn't work properly with it (discardable, when IA depends on discarding? Eeesh, even if the card itself is neat!), and that Targeting Astromech ended up being a rubbish Outlaw Tech when everyone was praying for a rubbish K4 or even a rubbish FCS. (Let's face it, when looking at astromechs the only thing not 'rubbish' is regen, heh), so that the baseline ship didn't have a couple more interesting options.

 

It's also a shame it didn't give a -1pt discount to the Astromech; while this might've been too much it would have landed the X-wing squarely in King Three Die Jouster territory, and let the difference between a 21pt Rookie and a 22pt Blue shine brightly. I do occasionally feel annoyed when I wanted a 21pt ship, and Rookies no longer count, y'know?

 

But the ships biggest problem is simple: Its fix came out after TLT. It's pushed B-wings, Kithraxz, and (freshly fixed) X-wings out of the picture. Poor Kithraxz were released literally the same wave they became obsolete; the Mist Hunter is going to be dead on arrival because it is (fairly) costed in comparison to a B-wing... and likewise, IA X-wings would've been fine.

 

Alex admitted they hadn't meant TLT to do this on purpose. Now with x7 Defenders coming, I wonder if the whole school of 3-die jousters isn't going to need a little bit of work as a whole - and that's a thought that troubles me greatly, given that B-wings and X-wings already have modifications, and the Mist Hunter has its title. There's just nowhere left.

 

TL;DR: TLTs broke jousting the wave X-wings got their jousting. The fix itself, though? Yeah, that was pretty clever. C'est la vie. ;)

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I totally agree. Hopefully I didn't come across as sarcastic. That was the farthest thing from my intention.  I love flying X wings and TIEs. Now if FFG would bring out some Scum uglies at about 10-12pts. Y-Tie and Tie-Wings for the hilarity.

That would be awesome, but their dials would be really screwed up.

I know I'm in the minority, but I'd love some Scum Uglies. Make 'em worse & cheaper than TIEs or Z-95s so you just run them in big fragile swarms.

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The image of X Wings flapping their S Foils open and closed in the middle of a dogfight is absurd.

 

I used to think so too but it looked fine in TFA.

 

I think that's going to be the tricky part. By putting "X-Wing" in the name of the T-70 they've guaranteed that anything that might fix the T-65 will make the 70 that much better, without tricky wording like "X-Wings without T-70" or something.

 

X-wing only. Rebel Alliance Only.

Edited by Blue Five

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The image of X Wings flapping their S Foils open and closed in the middle of a dogfight is absurd.

 

I used to think so too but it looked fine in TFA.

Yeah, Poe totally did that in the middle of a dogfight to gain speed/agility.

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Well, he did it to fit through a hole. The important thing though is it didn't look daft.

 

I suppose in that case context makes all the difference. The X-Wing only closes it's S-Foils to fit through a tight gap

 

Humans may turn sideways to walk through a narrow gap, but we don't all walk around like crabs normally.

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Well, he did it to fit through a hole. The important thing though is it didn't look daft.

 

I suppose in that case context makes all the difference. The X-Wing only closes it's S-Foils to fit through a tight gap

 

Humans may turn sideways to walk through a narrow gap, but we don't all walk around like crabs normally.

 

 

Tactical maneuverability: Xwing only

When you would take a damage from an asteroid or debris, roll a green die. On an evade, ignore the damage.

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The image of X Wings flapping their S Foils open and closed in the middle of a dogfight is absurd.

 

You realise Poe did this in the battle of Starkiller base to get in and out of the reactor chamber. Looked awesome too.

 

Edit - beaten to the comment. Still looked cool.

Edited by The Penguin UK

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I totally agree. Hopefully I didn't come across as sarcastic. That was the farthest thing from my intention.  I love flying X wings and TIEs. Now if FFG would bring out some Scum uglies at about 10-12pts. Y-Tie and Tie-Wings for the hilarity.

That would be awesome, but their dials would be really screwed up.

 

I know I'm in the minority, but I'd love some Scum Uglies. Make 'em worse & cheaper than TIEs or Z-95s so you just run them in big fragile swarms.

 

With Scyks that should have been cheaper than TIE/Ln and FFG stating that 12pts is the bottom line 

we won't see the uglies :C

E-wing is ugly but not an 'Ugly'

Edited by Warpman

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The old Rogue Squadron games and Empire at War enabled you to close the s-foils to go faster (not harder to hit, just faster in a straight line) at the cost of firepower, so it's not unprecedented. You did it to get from A to B but you opened them up when you wanted to shoot.

 

I do like the idea of a dual card that flips during the game to represent power shunting though. For example, one you can flip it when you reveal your dial which has an offensive minifocus on one side and the boost action on the other.

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The old Rogue Squadron games and Empire at War enabled you to close the s-foils to go faster (not harder to hit, just faster in a straight line) at the cost of firepower, so it's not unprecedented. You did it to get from A to B but you opened them up when you wanted to shoot.

 

I do like the idea of a dual card that flips during the game to represent power shunting though. For example, one you can flip it when you reveal your dial which has an offensive minifocus on one side and the boost action on the other.

 

Exactly, from a rules point of view there is no difference between S-Foils and Power distribution, so if FFG really want to go with the whole 'flippable dual card' thing I'd rather they go with the latter, as it makes more sense and doesn't look stupid.

 

I think the main kicker for the 'S-Foils make you go faster' argument is that not one of the X-Wings in the Death Star Trench close their S-Foils, a situation where you'd assume an increase in speed would be needed.

 

Indeed, Luke even says 'go in full throttle', which I'm assuming means 'go in full throttle', not 'go in not full throttle'.

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