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maldion

pins and needles and doom

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one hero is doomed
he gets hit from a attack and takes 4 damage, one more for doom, can you make the pins and needles on that doom damage?

and if you cant do that, if a heroe is damaged whit 1 damage and have doom can you make the pins and needles on the damage and then add the doom

 

https://images-cdn.fantasyflightgames.com/filer_public/fc/64/fc64b596-afbf-4d44-b4b9-68b7fd2e6557/pins-and-needles.png

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I would say no because pins and needles says exactly one damage but dooms damage is during the assign damage phase of combat right? What I did in one instance is refused to spend a surge so that only one damage was suffered against a hero and then he was full on stamina so got another extra point of damage which was exactly enough to knock out a hero. I love pins and needles.

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Doom is additional damage. It is not its own instance of damage. That means if a hero suffers 1 wound +1 from doom, he's suffering 2, so pins and needles couldn't trigger. 

 

Actually, since "Doomed" increases all the wound you suffer by 1, if a hero is doomed it's impossible to trigger pins and needles on him (unless somehow he reduces his suffered wound, such as if Jain suffers 1 as damage and 1 as fatigue).

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Doom is additional damage. It is not its own instance of damage. That means if a hero suffers 1 wound +1 from doom, he's suffering 2, so pins and needles couldn't trigger. 

 

Actually, since "Doomed" increases all the wound you suffer by 1, if a hero is doomed it's impossible to trigger pins and needles on him (unless somehow he reduces his suffered wound, such as if Jain suffers 1 as damage and 1 as fatigue).

 

I do not think that part about doomed is correct...

Both the cards trigger on the same condition, a figure suffering one (or for doomed one or more) damage, there is nothing that prevents you from triggering pins and needles first, just like you could decide the order of end / start of turn effects.

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Doom is additional damage. It is not its own instance of damage. That means if a hero suffers 1 wound +1 from doom, he's suffering 2, so pins and needles couldn't trigger. 

 

Actually, since "Doomed" increases all the wound you suffer by 1, if a hero is doomed it's impossible to trigger pins and needles on him (unless somehow he reduces his suffered wound, such as if Jain suffers 1 as damage and 1 as fatigue).

 

I do not think that part about doomed is correct...

Both the cards trigger on the same condition, a figure suffering one (or for doomed one or more) damage, there is nothing that prevents you from triggering pins and needles first, just like you could decide the order of end / start of turn effects.

 

I disagree because the damage from doomed is not a separate instance of damage. The figure does not suffer 1 damage, and then separately suffer 1 more damage because of doomed. Doomed increases the amount of damage suffered by 1, such that when the figure would suffer 1, it instead suffers 2. When it would suffer 2, it instead suffers 3, etc.

 

Suppose "Word of Misery" is in play. Are you suggesting that the hero would suffer 1 damage (and a fatigue), and then 1 damage from doomed (and then a fatigue)? I would argue this is not the case, that is, the hero suffers 2 damage and then just 1 fatigue due to word of misery.

Edited by Zaltyre

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Doom is additional damage. It is not its own instance of damage. That means if a hero suffers 1 wound +1 from doom, he's suffering 2, so pins and needles couldn't trigger. 

 

Actually, since "Doomed" increases all the wound you suffer by 1, if a hero is doomed it's impossible to trigger pins and needles on him (unless somehow he reduces his suffered wound, such as if Jain suffers 1 as damage and 1 as fatigue).

 

I do not think that part about doomed is correct...

Both the cards trigger on the same condition, a figure suffering one (or for doomed one or more) damage, there is nothing that prevents you from triggering pins and needles first, just like you could decide the order of end / start of turn effects.

 

I disagree because the damage from doomed is not a separate instance of damage. The figure does not suffer 1 damage, and then separately suffer 1 more damage because of doomed. Doomed increases the amount of damage suffered by 1, such that when the figure would suffer 1, it instead suffers 2. When it would suffer 2, it instead suffers 3, etc.

 

Suppose "Word of Misery" is in play. Are you suggesting that the hero would suffer 1 damage (and a fatigue), and then 1 damage from doomed (and then a fatigue)? I would argue this is not the case, that is, the hero suffers 2 damage and then just 1 fatigue due to word of misery.

 

 

 

Each time you suffer 1 or more X, suffer 1 additional X

Each of your attacks gains:

: Discard this card or token.

 

That is doomed.

So, yes, it is suffer one additional damage. It is not a separate INSTANCE, but you miss the core argument:

It is a matter of which triggers first. Doomed will of course invalidate the trigger for Pins and Needles, however, it works perfectly when on the event of suffering one damage (as a hero), the overlord immediately triggers pins and needles and THEN lets doom apply to increase the damage by one more: 1 damage + 2 damage and 1 fatigue + 1 damage.

 

Of course, given that the golden rule explicitly states that timing conflicts are resolved by the player whose turn it is, a doomed and poisoned hero would have the right to first resolve his conditions both, before the overlord plays pins and needles, which then of course he cannot do anymore.

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I understand your argument, but I still do not agree. I do not believe there is a timing conflict because the hero never suffers 1 wound. Doomed alters the amount of wound suffered before the hero suffers anything, so there is no valid trigger for Pins and Needles. I think your interpretation would be exactly the case if doomed were a separate instance of damage.

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I have two questions which relate to the same issue, which is timing conflict regarding recovery.

 

1) A doomed hero suffers 1 wound from an attack. The overlord wishes to play "Pins and Needles".

a) Do "Pins and Needles" and Doomed both resolve their effects? (the hero suffers 4 damage and 1 fatigue total, regardless of order).

b) Does "Pins and Needles" only resolve if the active player chooses it first? (The hero could suffer 2 damage- Doomed first- , or 3 damage and 1 fatigue -PaN first- , at the discretion of the active player).

 

2) A Bard has "Understudy" active, and a hero recovers 1 wound from another effect. A Crow Hag is also near with "Lifethirst".

a) Does the hero recover 1 wound (1+Understudy-Lifethirst)? (i.e., do both abilities resolve regardless of which happens first)

b) Does Understudy only trigger if it is the first ability to resolve based on the active player? (The active player resolves Lifethirst first, reducing the initial damage to zero, giving Understudy no trigger).

 

Thanks!

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Hey Paul,

 

1) No, "Pins and Needles" and Doomed are mutually exclusive. That is to say, if a hero is Doomed they will never suffer an instance of 1 damage, because Doomed will make that instance of 1 damage into 2 damage, thereby removing the possible trigger for Pins and Needles. Doomed is not a separate instance of damage dealing, so there is not timing conflict in which it can be chosen to be resolved second, it simply modifies the one instance of damage to be one more than it was before.

 

2) B) Understudy only triggers if its the first ability to resolve based on the active player. When the other effect allows a hero to recover 1 health, both Lifethirst and Understudy trigger from that event. As there is a conflict between resolving them, the active player chooses in which order to resolve. If resolving Lifethirst first, the hero’s recovery is reduced by 1 to 0, thereby removing the trigger for Understudy (the hero is no longer recovering 1 or more health). If Understudy is triggered first, the hero recovers 2 health which is reduced down to 1 due to the subsequent resolution of Lifethirst.

 

I hope this helps!

 

Thanks for playing,

Kara Centell-Dunk

Game Developer

Fantasy Flight Games

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Aloha,

 

I have another question revoling around pins and needles. If an mirror image from a conjurer is killed, he suffers 1 damage and 1 fatigue.

He is therefore eligible to be the target of pins and needles. Can pins and needles trigger when the conjurer is at max fatigue?

 

I hope you can explain the reasoning behind it.

 

Greetings Funkfried

Edited by Funkfried

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I gather you could be asking one of two things:

 

1) If a hero is at max fatigue and suffers 1 damage, can "Pins and Needles" trigger?

Sure. The fatigue "Pins and Needles" makes him suffer will just be suffered as a wound.

 

2)If a hero is at max fatigue and suffers 1 damage and 1 fatigue, can "Pins and Needles" trigger?

No, I don't think so. The fatigue he suffers will be suffered as a wound, meaning he'll suffer 2 wound, which doesn't fit the "exactly 1 wound" requirement.

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2)If a hero is at max fatigue and suffers 1 damage and 1 fatigue, can "Pins and Needles" trigger?

No, I don't think so. The fatigue he suffers will be suffered as a wound, meaning he'll suffer 2 wound, which doesn't fit the "exactly 1 wound" requirement.

 

That means damage is always calculated in a single step although fatigue and damage are two different things? The damage-step is only explained as part of combat.

I would argue that both are seperate triggers and therefore have to be calculated seperatly. Especially since the damage is not the result onf direct attack on the hero but an effect from his class card.

Edited by Funkfried

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2)If a hero is at max fatigue and suffers 1 damage and 1 fatigue, can "Pins and Needles" trigger?

No, I don't think so. The fatigue he suffers will be suffered as a wound, meaning he'll suffer 2 wound, which doesn't fit the "exactly 1 wound" requirement.

 

That means damage is always calculated in a single step although fatigue and damage are two different things? The damage-step is only explained as part of combat.

I would argue that both are seperate triggers and therefore have to be calculated seperatly. Especially since the damage is not the result onf direct attack on the hero but an effect from his class card.

 

I disagree. As a counter-example, let's say "Word of Misery" is in play when your conjurer's image token is destroyed (and he is already at full fatigue). Would you be willing to say that the conjurer takes 1 damage (+1 fatigue from WoM which becomes a damage) and then a fatigue, which he takes as damage (+1 fatigue from WoM which becomes a damage).

 

Alternately, if the hero were doomed: are you saying he'd take 4 damage when his image token is destroyed (1+1 and then 1+1).

 

The wound and the fatigue are suffered at the same time- there is nothing separating the suffering of damage from the suffering of fatigue (which is suffered as damage in this case). Therefore, it's my position that it would be a single instance of suffering damage, not two. Referring back to the above examples, that means I think if WoM were in play, it would be a total of 3 damage (1 damage and 2 fatigue as damage) and doomed would also be 3 damage (1 damage, 1 fatigue as damage, and 1 additional damage.)

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That is a good example thank you. I still like the plot card though :D

There would be no reason to not like Pins and Needles. I chose my plot deck mainly because of that card. With as many times as I've used it, I don't regret my decision. I hate giving fortune tokens to heroes, so free damage for no threat is a no brainer. Plus my group is often stamina max so I usually get to quadruple the damage from a source which does only one.

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