Boba Fett and Extra Munitions

[Ubul 887]

Look at it this way,

 

A-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->  EM rules statement on how to treat EM tokens

B------------------------------------------                                                           Physical EM card on the ship

C                                                     C                                                        Boba Fetting

 

 

At time point C, you discard the EM card.  However, there is no timing window to check for how the tokens work again- it was a statement at setup.  The only timing on how the tokens work (If they are still available at point C) is at setup.  There is not another check on the EM card during the game.   

 

I don't understand what you mean 'check on the EM card'. EM gives you the ability to equip and use ordnance tokens. Once the card is gone, you lose these abilities, just like with other upgrade cards in the game.

Edited March 11, 2016 by Ubul

[WWHSD 9,273]

 

Extra Muntions has two sections each with different triggers.

 

When you equip this card: Place one ordnance token on each equipped [TORPEDO], [MISSILE], and [bOMB] Upgrade card.

 

When you are instructed to discard an Upgrade card: When you are instructed to discard an Upgrade card, you may discard 1 ordnance token on that card instead.

 

 

If the Extra Munitions card is not in play when you hit the trigger, then the token doesn't do anything. It has no triggers or abilities of its own. It requires rules to make it do anything. Those rules cease to exist then the card leaves play.

If I have two ships that both have Extra Munitions, and the EM from ship A is discarded somehow, does the EM from ship B allow the remaining tokens on ship A to work? Or are ship A's tokens out of scope because the EM on ship B says "you"?

 

 

Yes, ship A's tokens would be out of scope for ship B's EM because of the wording. 

[WWHSD 9,273]

Look at it this way,

 

A-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->  EM rules statement on how to treat EM tokens

B------------------------------------------                                                           Physical EM card on the ship

C                                                     C                                                        Boba Fetting

 

 

At time point C, you discard the EM card.  However, there is no timing window to check for how the tokens work again- it was a statement at setup.  The only timing on how the tokens work (If they are still available at point C) is at setup.  There is not another check on the EM card during the game.   

 

When you discard a card this is what the rules say happens:

 

"When an Upgrade card is discarded, it is flipped facedown. The card is out of play for all purposes except when determining the total squad point cost of the ship to which it was equipped. If an Upgrade card is flipped faceup by a game effect, it returns to play equipped to the same ship."

 

 

Without referencing the EM upgrade that is now "... out of play for all purposes ...", what rules govern the usage of those tokens?

Edited March 11, 2016 by WWHSD

[Pandademic 425]

Look at it this way,

 

A-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->  EM rules statement on how to treat EM tokens

B------------------------------------------                                                           Physical EM card on the ship

C                                                     C                                                        Boba Fetting

 

 

At time point C, you discard the EM card.  However, there is no timing window to check for how the tokens work again- it was a statement at setup.  The only timing on how the tokens work (If they are still available at point C) is at setup.  There is not another check on the EM card during the game.   

 

The second sentence of Extra Munitions is, "When you are instructed to discard an Upgrade card, you may discard 1 ordnance token on that card instead." This is a triggered effect. It has a trigger condition ("When you are instructed to discard an Upgrade card") and an effect with a cost ("discard 1 ordnance token on that card instead").

 

It works the same way that, say, R7 Astromech does. R7 has a trigger condition ("when defending, if you have a target lock on the attacker") and an effect with a cost ("spend the target lock to choose any or all attack dice. The attacker must reroll the chosen dice"). If R7 is discarded, then its effect is no longer in play, so it can't be triggered.

 

Only the first sentence of Extra Munitions applies at setup. The second sentence is a triggered effect that is only accessible for as long as the card is in play.

[Amraam01 154]

 

Look at it this way,

 

A-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->  EM rules statement on how to treat EM tokens

B------------------------------------------                                                           Physical EM card on the ship

C                                                     C                                                        Boba Fetting

 

 

At time point C, you discard the EM card.  However, there is no timing window to check for how the tokens work again- it was a statement at setup.  The only timing on how the tokens work (If they are still available at point C) is at setup.  There is not another check on the EM card during the game.   

 

The second sentence of Extra Munitions is, "When you are instructed to discard an Upgrade card, you may discard 1 ordnance token on that card instead." This is a triggered effect. It has a trigger condition ("When you are instructed to discard an Upgrade card") and an effect with a cost ("discard 1 ordnance token on that card instead").

 

It works the same way that, say, R7 Astromech does. R7 has a trigger condition ("when defending, if you have a target lock on the attacker") and an effect with a cost ("spend the target lock to choose any or all attack dice. The attacker must reroll the chosen dice"). If R7 is discarded, then its effect is no longer in play, so it can't be triggered.

 

Only the first sentence of Extra Munitions applies at setup. The second sentence is a triggered effect that is only accessible for as long as the card is in play.

 

I can definitely see your point of view.  Lets hope for clarification with a new FAQ with wave 8.  

[Vulf 911]

In a tournament, are you allowed to grab your opponent's property and rub them and flip them and lick them and discard them all you want?

 Can I take your ships off the pegs and run around the room making laser noises?

 Do I Physically get to reach across the table and slap your cards out of the way when my Boba Fett triggers?

 Whose hand flips the card over, is what I'm saying?

 Discarded Cards

When a player is instructed to discard a ship card or Upgrade card, he or she flips it facedown instead.

 If you are choosing an opponent's card to discard without being instructed to do so, what do you actually do? If we want to get anal with the wording. A player is not being asked to discard a card, the ship is being asked to discard the card, so nothing actually happens?

 You on an equipped upgrade card refers to the ship.

 Good work Heaver.

Apart from the rules lawyering, snarky comments addressed to Heaver for a card he designed before extra munitions were designed...seems like the wrong target of your righteous indignation.

 

 

I think you mean self-righteous indignation.

 

Calling it just plain righteous means it is justified and you agree with me, and I'm sure you meant to be insulting. If you are going to be pretentiously belittling others, you need to do it right!

Edited March 12, 2016 by Vulf

[Ken at Sunrise 2,065]

I think we'll get FFG to comment on this if they already haven't and I simply missed it.

 

I don't buy the "Rules no longer exist" part.  The whole point of getting and extra EPT with droid issue is the droid gives you and EPT slot.  If the droid goes away the slot goes away yet you are allowed to keep and continue to use the EPT card/upgrade that would otherwise be in violation of the rules as they currently exist.

 

I could go either way on this but it does seem to me that if the secondary weapon was gone the tokens are useless; if EM is gone the tokens may be useless. But looking at the droid thing again I could see it going either way.  I don't however see rules ceasing to exist, at least not like we are framing it here.

[RowUrBoatGently 58]

Extra Munitions is a torpedo upgrade and should also get a token. If Boba -can't- disard a card with an EM-token in it (discarding the token instead) he can't discard the EM. If Boba -can- discard a card with an EM-token on it there's no need to discard EM. Edit: If there's only one other torpedo/missile/bomb upgrade. 

Edited April 5, 2016 by tinnitus

[Rapture 499]

But looking at the droid thing again I could see it going either way.  I don't however see rules ceasing to exist, at least not like we are framing it here.

That does not work as a comparisson. The EPT slot, or any upgrade slot, only matters during the list building portion of the game. That it when you are required to have the slot in order to add an upgrade card to a ship. Once the game starts, the rules do not instruct to look back at those upgrade slots at any point.

[WWHSD 9,273]

 

I don't buy the "Rules no longer exist" part.  The whole point of getting and extra EPT with droid issue is the droid gives you and EPT slot.  If the droid goes away the slot goes away yet you are allowed to keep and continue to use the EPT card/upgrade that would otherwise be in violation of the rules as they currently exist.

 

 

The most mechanically similar upgrade to Extra Munitions that I can think of currently in the game is Agent Kallus. He has you designate a target at the start of the match. This designation only has meaning while Agent Kallus is in play because there are no other rules that instruct you as to the significance of a designated target. Would you argue that a ship that has has Agent Kallus removed by Boba Fett continues to receive the benefit of his dice modification?

 

The example of the astromech that grants an EPT doesn't really apply here. That droid changes the rules in the squad building part of the game. Once the card has entered play it no longer requires a slot to be active. The same holds true for cards that require a minimum PS to equip. The rules tell us how to handle EPTs. The droid being removed doesn't change that. The same can't be said for Extra Munitions.

 

Extra Munitions tokens are meaningless without  the Extra Munitions Upgrade in play. Without using that upgrade card, try to find something in the rules that tell you what they do.

Edited April 5, 2016 by WWHSD

[StephenEsven 632]

This one is quite clear. If you lose EM, the you no longer have the rule that allows you to discard the token in place of the card you are instructed to discard. The droid example is just fine. FFG has made it clear that if you use IA to get rid of the astromech, you lose the Elite Slot. It just doesn't affect anything as the slot only matters during squad building. You lose the slot but keep the card you equipped to that slot.

[WWHSD 9,273]

This one is quite clear. If you lose EM, the you no longer have the rule that allows you to discard the token in place of the card you are instructed to discard. The droid example is just fine. FFG has made it clear that if you use IA to get rid of the astromech, you lose the Elite Slot. It just doesn't affect anything as the slot only matters during squad building. You lose the slot but keep the card you equipped to that slot.

 

On top of that, the Mist Hunter title set the precedent that upgrades don't require slots.

[Vulf 911]

Ordnance Tokens. Perhaps they need their own rule card.

[Achowat 131]

This whole conversation is much ado about nothing. Fett can't discard EM because EM is a torpedo upgrade, with an EM Token on it. There's currently no way to discard both the EM Token on the EM card and the EM card itself.

[WWHSD 9,273]

This whole conversation is much ado about nothing. Fett can't discard EM because EM is a torpedo upgrade, with an EM Token on it. There's currently no way to discard both the EM Token on the EM card and the EM card itself.

 

Based on the wording on the Boba Fett crew and Extra Munitions card, Extra Munitions should't trigger when Fett discards a card. Discarding EM instead of the a specific torpedo/missile/bomb upgrade is almost always going to be a suboptimal choice though.

Edited April 6, 2016 by WWHSD

[player1399050 42]

Yep...this argument is currently moot. On the Missile Boats, Fett has a better target.  Same on a K-WIng or Punisher.  On a Z-95 or such, the ship is almost dead by the time you get the crit on it anyway.

Edited April 6, 2016 by Wizzardx3

[Rawling 345]

This whole conversation is much ado about nothing. Fett can't discard EM because EM is a torpedo upgrade, with an EM Token on it. There's currently no way to discard both the EM Token on the EM card and the EM card itself.

 

... unless we make the distinction between BF instructing you to discard the card, and EM only triggering when they discard the card.

 

Edit: 'd

Edited April 6, 2016 by Rawling

[Sentinal 150]

This is not that hard to figure out. It is pointless for Boba Fett to remove "Extra Munitions" upgrade card. The effect of EM remains in play even after the card is removed.

Case in point - •R2-D6 adds an EPT to a ship, "Integrated Astromech" removes R2-D6 to absorb a hit, the EPT remains on board and is still active.

Boba Fett removes the EM upgrade card, the tokens remain and are still useable (according to the text of the card).

Therefore, Boba Fett removes "Plasma torpedo" card instead (because the player controlling Boba Fett can do so, not the player owning EM upgrade). The munitions token assigned to the "removed" Plama torpedo card goes inert because the upgrade card was removed already (based on the wording of the firing ordnance rule, requiring to remove the specified ordnance card in order to fire said weapon).

[StephenEsven 632]

No that is not correct. By that logic EM would be unnecessary, because I could just keep firing the torpedos I already discarded.

Once EM is gone the tokens have no effect because it is EM that allows you to discard a token in place of a card.

[Rawling 345]

... are still useable (according to the text of the card).

What card? Once it's gone, you no longer have the ability to use the tokens, just like with Palatine gone you no longer have the ability to change dice results.

R2-A6 equipping an EPT is different, as equipping happens during setup and no slot is required to keep an upgrade (see Must Hunter).

[Sentinal 150]

Placement of munition tokens happens during setup, just like the (EPT) slot for R2-D6 or (bomb) slot from Sabine (crew). Even if the upgrade card which allows the placement to occur is removed/discarded any equipped items from said cards remain in place and the effects of equipped items continue as normal.

The EM upgrade card equips tokens to other equipped ordnance cards. EM does not provide the power to the tokens, it just explains what the tokens do once placed.

If Boba Fett removes the ordnance card, then the token assigned to it is disabled because the rule for firing ordnance requires to discard the ordnance card. If there is no ordnance card to fire the weapon, then the munitions token cannot be used to replace it.

Edited April 7, 2016 by Sentinal

[Rawling 345]

EM does not provide the power to the tokens, it just explains what the tokens do once placed.

It does not explain what the tokens mean, it gives you an ability that uses the tokens. Once EM is gone, you no longer have that ability. EM does indeed "provide the power to the tokens".

[StevenO 2,996]

IF Boba Fett can discard EM, and this is really a question of whether he can force the discard of the card instead of the token on top of the card which would be discarded first by its owner, then EM would take its rules with it.  The Ordnance tokens on other cards would remain but they have no rules explaining what they do so it stands to reason they do nothing except hold the upgrade card down.

 

Now I believe that Boba Fett would remove the token from the card if the card were to be discarded which makes the argument pointless but if he can take the card that would make the tokens useless.

[WWHSD 9,273]

Placement of munition tokens happens during setup, just like the (EPT) slot for R2-D6 or (bomb) slot from Sabine (crew). Even if the upgrade card which allows the placement to occur is removed/discarded any equipped items from said cards remain in place and the effects of equipped items continue as normal.

The EM upgrade card equips tokens to other equipped ordnance cards. EM does not provide the power to the tokens, it just explains what the tokens do once placed.

If Boba Fett removes the ordnance card, then the token assigned to it is disabled because the rule for firing ordnance requires to discard the ordnance card. If there is no ordnance card to fire the weapon, then the munitions token cannot be used to replace it.

 

Both of those example are referencing upgrade cards that stay in play. There's nothing that says that you need to have a slot of an upgrade once the game has started. The Mist Hunter title sets a pretty clear precedent for that. Once you make it past the squad building phase, continuing to meet the requirements to have an upgrade equipped no long matter.  

Munitions tokens are different than that. There is nothing outside of the Extra Munitions upgrade that give those tokens any significance. Once Extra Munitions has been discarded it no longer has an effect on the game.

The tokens remaining on the upgrades (and Kallus' designated target remaining designated)  don't really have much of a point right now but allow for abilities that return discarded cards back into play to work with Extra Munitions and Agent Kallus.

[Obsidian Leader 17]

 

This one is quite clear. If you lose EM, the you no longer have the rule that allows you to discard the token in place of the card you are instructed to discard. The droid example is just fine. FFG has made it clear that if you use IA to get rid of the astromech, you lose the Elite Slot. It just doesn't affect anything as the slot only matters during squad building. You lose the slot but keep the card you equipped to that slot.

 

On top of that, the Mist Hunter title set the precedent that upgrades don't require slots.

 

 

Ehhhh,... Not really. That might be a stretch, I wouldn't exactly say that.

They designed it very specifically for game balance. It has nothing to do with upgrade cards not needing to be taken with assigned slots. By purchasing the Title, they are saying that your G-1A Starfighter is now the custom-designed, built-from-scratch Mist Hunter made specifically for Zuckuss. That version can barrel roll and is equipped with a Tractor Beam. They specifically worded the card so that you had to spend the point for the cannon and absolutely DID NOT instead gain a cannon slot, as this would allow you to put any cannon you wanted on that ship instead of the intended one. This idea of balance explains why they didn’t add the cannon icon to the ship in the first place.

 

As for the EPT droid, I personally hate that ruling that the EPT slot is removed but the upgrade card purchased isn’t lost. All the game mechanics (and fluff) insinuate that the only reason that poor EPT-less pilot can do whatever it is he pays for is because he bought a droid equipped with that talent. I understand, they don’t word the card as you put the EPT ON the droid, thusly making it so that you lose both if you lose one but it still rubs me the wrong way. Stupid droids! Rebels get all the cool stuff!