Boba Fett and Extra Munitions

[TwilightGarrison 16]

So Extra Munitions reads: When you equip this card, place 1 ordnance token on each equipped Torpedoes, Missiles, and Bomb Upgrade card. When you are instructed to discard an Upgrade card, you may discard 1 ordnance token on that card instead. 

Boba Fett reads: After performing an attack, if the defender was dealt a faceup Damage card, you may discard this card to choose and discard 1 of the defender's Upgrade cards

 

Since EM says when instructed to discard an upgrade card (that has an ordnance token on it) you may discard an ordnance token instead, does that mean if Boba was trying to discard an upgrade with an ordnance token on it, I could simply discard the token instead?

 

[digitalbusker 2,248]

Barring some really Dadaist hair-splitting around the distinction between you being instructed to discard a card and your opponent being instructed to discard your card, I'd say yes.

[DR4CO 6,234]

Also note that Extra Munitions includes itself, so Boba cannot go after it instead of your actual munitions.

[DraconPyrothayan 6,107]

Barring some really Dadaist hair-splitting around the distinction between you being instructed to discard a card and your opponent being instructed to discard your card, I'd say yes.

That... is a fairly large loophole actually.

[DailyRich 3,346]

Seems a pretty easy interpretation to say the owner of Fett choosing which upgrade of yours to discard is you being instructed to discard it.

[thespaceinvader 17,568]

Eh, I'd argue that one way or another Boba gets to discard a single shot of a given munition; Extra Munitions seems to protect against him.

 

But I think it would be rare that the Boba player would actually WANT do destroy the munitions rather than the Guidance Chips or FCS, or... etc.

[StephenEsven 632]

Since it is Boba Fett discarding the card, EM does not protect the cards. You in the RM card refers to the owning ship. Boba Fett is the source of the discard, not you or your upgrade cards. On an ordnance heavy enemy he really should discard EM thus rendering all the ordnance tokens useless.

[WWHSD 9,273]

Since it is Boba Fett discarding the card, EM does not protect the cards. You in the RM card refers to the owning ship. Boba Fett is the source of the discard, not you or your upgrade cards. On an ordnance heavy enemy he really should discard EM thus rendering all the ordnance tokens useless.

 

 

 

 

 

Nailed it.

 

 

When EM is discarded, it leaves the tokens on the upgrades but they don't have any effect without the EM card in play.

Edited March 10, 2016 by WWHSD

[ZealuxMyr 1,944]

Boba Fett (Crew): "you may discard this card to choose and discard 1 of the defender's Upgrade cards."

 

That seems to say it all: the defender does not discard the card but rather the player with Boba Fett (crew) discards the card. Extra Munitions doesn't have a chance to trigger as it doesn't pertain to the player with Boba Fett (crew) nor would it matter if it did because EM says "may" and the attacker would simply be able to choose not to discard the token and discard the card instead.

 

In order for Boba Fett (crew), as written, to be stopped by an EM token the EM upgrade card would have to be worded: "When an card with an ordinance token on it would be discarded, the token must be discarded instead." <-- or something along those lines.

 

Based on the cards as they are written and allowing for a strictly literal interpretation I must conclude that Boba Fett (crew) may discard any ordinance he chooses, regardless of the presence of extra munitions tokens.

[Vulf 911]

In a tournament, are you allowed to grab your opponent's property and rub them and flip them and lick them and discard them all you want?

 

Can I take your ships off the pegs and run around the room making laser noises?

 

Do I Physically get to reach across the table and slap your cards out of the way when my Boba Fett triggers?

 

Whose hand flips the card over, is what I'm saying?

 

Discarded Cards

When a player is instructed to discard a ship card or Upgrade card, he or she flips it facedown instead.

 

If you are choosing an opponent's card to discard without being instructed to do so, what do you actually do? If we want to get anal with the wording. A player is not being asked to discard a card, the ship is being asked to discard the card, so nothing actually happens?

 

You on an equipped upgrade card refers to the ship.

 

Good work Heaver.

Edited March 10, 2016 by Vulf

[StephenEsven 632]

just like with rerolling opponents dice, you are doing the discarding (or modifying) even though the opponent is the one physically flipping the card over (or picking up the dice and rolling them again)

The opponent did not use an effect that instructed him to discard a card. You did.

[Jehan Menasis 1,562]

Since it is Boba Fett discarding the card, EM does not protect the cards. You in the RM card refers to the owning ship. Boba Fett is the source of the discard, not you or your upgrade cards. On an ordnance heavy enemy he really should discard EM thus rendering all the ordnance tokens useless.

 

Oh, but I swear that I'm not going to let you put your filthy fingers on my cards. If you want any of my upgrades discarded, you are going to have to instruct me which one to discard.

[WWHSD 9,273]

In a tournament, are you allowed to grab your opponent's property and rub them and flip them and lick them and discard them all you want?

 

Can I take your ships off the pegs and run around the room making laser noises?

 

Do I Physically get to reach across the table and slap your cards out of the way when my Boba Fett triggers?

 

Whose hand flips the card over, is what I'm saying?

 

Discarded Cards

When a player is instructed to discard a ship card or Upgrade card, he or she flips it facedown instead.

 

If you are choosing an opponent's card to discard without being instructed to do so, what do you actually do? If we want to get anal with the wording. A player is not being asked to discard a card, the ship is being asked to discard the card, so nothing actually happens?

 

You on an equipped upgrade card refers to the ship.

 

Good work Heaver.

 

It's actually Extra Munitions and not Fett that is broken if we get down to it. None of the ordnance that needs to be discarded uses the word "you". The are simply "Discard this card to perform this attack". Extra Munitions specifies "When you". Using your logic, Extra Munitions would never trigger because it is the player and not the ship that is discarding the ordnance card.

 

It doesn't matter who physically flips the card over. Fett specifies that it is the ship Fett is on that discards the upgrade, and Extra Munitions requires the ship it is equipped to to be the one that discards the upgrade. 

Edited March 10, 2016 by WWHSD

[Amraam01 154]

Seems perfectly clear to me, discard your token only.  You keep the original munition.  

 

Boba Fett: "... discard one of the defender's upgrade cards".  

Extra munitions:  "...When you are instructed to discard an upgrade card, discard one ordinance token on that card instead."

[Stronghammer 195]

Since it is Boba Fett discarding the card, EM does not protect the cards. You in the RM card refers to the owning ship. Boba Fett is the source of the discard, not you or your upgrade cards. On an ordnance heavy enemy he really should discard EM thus rendering all the ordnance tokens useless.

 

 

When EM is discarded, it leaves the tokens on the upgrades but they don't have any effect without the EM card in play.

Well would that be the same as and X-wing with R2-D6 in regards to discarding the droid, you still get to keep the ept?

[WWHSD 9,273]

 

 

Since it is Boba Fett discarding the card, EM does not protect the cards. You in the RM card refers to the owning ship. Boba Fett is the source of the discard, not you or your upgrade cards. On an ordnance heavy enemy he really should discard EM thus rendering all the ordnance tokens useless.

 

 

When EM is discarded, it leaves the tokens on the upgrades but they don't have any effect without the EM card in play.

Well would that be the same as and X-wing with R2-D6 in regards to discarding the droid, you still get to keep the ept?

 

 

The tokens don't have any inherent effect. Without the Extra Munitions upgrade in play they are just meaning less tokens.

 

If Extra Munitions would have just instructed you to place the tokens on all of your Bomb, Missile, and Torpedo upgrades and the rest of the card ended up on a on an Ordnance Token rule card, then losing the Extra Munitions upgrade would have no effect. 

[Amraam01 154]

 

 

 

Since it is Boba Fett discarding the card, EM does not protect the cards. You in the RM card refers to the owning ship. Boba Fett is the source of the discard, not you or your upgrade cards. On an ordnance heavy enemy he really should discard EM thus rendering all the ordnance tokens useless.

 

 

When EM is discarded, it leaves the tokens on the upgrades but they don't have any effect without the EM card in play.

Well would that be the same as and X-wing with R2-D6 in regards to discarding the droid, you still get to keep the ept?

 

 

The tokens don't have any inherent effect. Without the Extra Munitions upgrade in play they are just meaning less tokens.

 

If Extra Munitions would have just instructed you to place the tokens on all of your Bomb, Missile, and Torpedo upgrades and the rest of the card ended up on a on an Ordnance Token rule card, then losing the Extra Munitions upgrade would have no effect. 

 

Isnt that exactly what EM does?  You literally put a token on each ordinance with a rule statement on how the token works,  If the token is still there the rule statement applies because the timing for the effect is when you equip it at the start of the game so discarding the EM card is totally pointless.  .  

Edited March 11, 2016 by Amraam01

[ZealuxMyr 1,944]

As I believe was indicated above the Extra Munitions card is, itself, a Torpedo Upgrade Card and therefore must have 1 ordnance token placed on it during match set up (see card wording below). If we are to go with the premise that Boba Fett (crew) actually instructs the owner of the Upgrade Card to discard it (and therefore a munitions token protects each ordnance card) you would not be able to use Boba Fett (crew) to cause your opponent to discard the Extra Munitions card as they would just discard the token instead.

 

Extra Munitions: Limited. When you equip this card, place 1 ordnance token on each equipped {torpedo}, {missile}, and {bomb} Upgrade card. When you are instructed to discard an Upgrade card, you may discard 1 ordnance token on that card instead.

 

Edit: No one does this as, until now, there hasn't been a justification for putting an ordnance token on the EM upgrade card. But, that being said, the card does instruct you to place 1 ordnance token on each equipped {torpedo} Upgrade card and makes no effort to distinguish between secondary weapon {torpedo} Upgrade card or non-secondary weapon {torpedo} Upgrade card.

Edited March 11, 2016 by ZealuxMyr

[WWHSD 9,273]

 

 

 

 

Since it is Boba Fett discarding the card, EM does not protect the cards. You in the RM card refers to the owning ship. Boba Fett is the source of the discard, not you or your upgrade cards. On an ordnance heavy enemy he really should discard EM thus rendering all the ordnance tokens useless.

 

 

When EM is discarded, it leaves the tokens on the upgrades but they don't have any effect without the EM card in play.

Well would that be the same as and X-wing with R2-D6 in regards to discarding the droid, you still get to keep the ept?

 

 

The tokens don't have any inherent effect. Without the Extra Munitions upgrade in play they are just meaning less tokens.

 

If Extra Munitions would have just instructed you to place the tokens on all of your Bomb, Missile, and Torpedo upgrades and the rest of the card ended up on a on an Ordnance Token rule card, then losing the Extra Munitions upgrade would have no effect. 

 

Isnt that exactly what EM does?  You literally put a token on each ordinance with a rule statement on how the token works,  If the token is still there the rule statement applies because the timing for the effect is when you equip it at the start of the game so discarding the EM card is totally pointless.  .  

 

 

Rules reference cards are always in effect. For instance, an Ion Token has meaning that is independent from any upgrades that are in play. The effect of a Munitions Token isn't defined anywhere except for the Extra Munitions upgrade. If that card leaves play there are no longer any rules that permit you to use those tokens.  This is similar to Agent Kallus. The target he designates remains designated but if he gets discarded that designation is meaningless.

  

 

[WWHSD 9,273]

I'd like to see FFG give Munitions Tokens a rules reference and errata the upgrade to just cover the assignment of the tokens. I think that would open up some design space for other upgrades that can grant those tokens and keep the tokens' effect consistent across the all of the upgrades.   

[Amraam01 154]

 

 

 

 

 

Since it is Boba Fett discarding the card, EM does not protect the cards. You in the RM card refers to the owning ship. Boba Fett is the source of the discard, not you or your upgrade cards. On an ordnance heavy enemy he really should discard EM thus rendering all the ordnance tokens useless.

 

 

When EM is discarded, it leaves the tokens on the upgrades but they don't have any effect without the EM card in play.

Well would that be the same as and X-wing with R2-D6 in regards to discarding the droid, you still get to keep the ept?

 

 

The tokens don't have any inherent effect. Without the Extra Munitions upgrade in play they are just meaning less tokens.

 

If Extra Munitions would have just instructed you to place the tokens on all of your Bomb, Missile, and Torpedo upgrades and the rest of the card ended up on a on an Ordnance Token rule card, then losing the Extra Munitions upgrade would have no effect. 

 

Isnt that exactly what EM does?  You literally put a token on each ordinance with a rule statement on how the token works,  If the token is still there the rule statement applies because the timing for the effect is when you equip it at the start of the game so discarding the EM card is totally pointless.  .  

 

 

Rules reference cards are always in effect. For instance, an Ion Token has meaning that is independent from any upgrades that are in play. The effect of a Munitions Token isn't defined anywhere except for the Extra Munitions upgrade. If that card leaves play there are no longer any rules that permit you to use those tokens.  This is similar to Agent Kallus. The target he designates remains designated but if he gets discarded that designation is meaningless.

  

 

 

Except you dont check for rules with extra munitions during the game.  It explicitly states at the setup in the beginning on how the tokens would work.  So, if there is a token on the card we know what to do.  Taking away the card doesnt take away what you stated in the beginning on how the tokens work because there is not another timing check for applying extra munitions.  I really not sure what you are trying to get at other than overly complicating it.  Just use Boba fett to go after the munition.          

[WWHSD 9,273]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Since it is Boba Fett discarding the card, EM does not protect the cards. You in the RM card refers to the owning ship. Boba Fett is the source of the discard, not you or your upgrade cards. On an ordnance heavy enemy he really should discard EM thus rendering all the ordnance tokens useless.

 

 

When EM is discarded, it leaves the tokens on the upgrades but they don't have any effect without the EM card in play.

Well would that be the same as and X-wing with R2-D6 in regards to discarding the droid, you still get to keep the ept?

 

 

The tokens don't have any inherent effect. Without the Extra Munitions upgrade in play they are just meaning less tokens.

 

If Extra Munitions would have just instructed you to place the tokens on all of your Bomb, Missile, and Torpedo upgrades and the rest of the card ended up on a on an Ordnance Token rule card, then losing the Extra Munitions upgrade would have no effect. 

 

Isnt that exactly what EM does?  You literally put a token on each ordinance with a rule statement on how the token works,  If the token is still there the rule statement applies because the timing for the effect is when you equip it at the start of the game so discarding the EM card is totally pointless.  .  

 

 

Rules reference cards are always in effect. For instance, an Ion Token has meaning that is independent from any upgrades that are in play. The effect of a Munitions Token isn't defined anywhere except for the Extra Munitions upgrade. If that card leaves play there are no longer any rules that permit you to use those tokens.  This is similar to Agent Kallus. The target he designates remains designated but if he gets discarded that designation is meaningless.

  

 

 

Except you dont check for rules with extra munitions during the game.  It explicitly states at the setup in the beginning on how the tokens would work.  So, if there is a token on the card we know what to do.  Taking away the card doesnt take away what you stated in the beginning on how the tokens work because there is not another timing check for applying extra munitions.  I really not sure what you are trying to get at other than overly complicating it.  Just use Boba fett to go after the munition.          

 

 

 

 

 

Extra Muntions has two sections each with different triggers.

 

When you equip this card: Place one ordnance token on each equipped [TORPEDO], [MISSILE], and [bOMB] Upgrade card.

 

When you are instructed to discard an Upgrade card: When you are instructed to discard an Upgrade card, you may discard 1 ordnance token on that card instead.

 

 

If the Extra Munitions card is not in play when you hit the trigger, then the token doesn't do anything. It has no triggers or abilities of its own. It requires rules to make it do anything. Those rules cease to exist then the card leaves play.

Edited March 11, 2016 by WWHSD

[digitalbusker 2,248]

Extra Muntions has two sections each with different triggers.

 

When you equip this card: Place one ordnance token on each equipped [TORPEDO], [MISSILE], and [bOMB] Upgrade card.

 

When you are instructed to discard an Upgrade card: When you are instructed to discard an Upgrade card, you may discard 1 ordnance token on that card instead.

 

 

If the Extra Munitions card is not in play when you hit the trigger, then the token doesn't do anything. It has no triggers or abilities of its own. It requires rules to make it do anything. Those rules cease to exist then the card leaves play.

If I have two ships that both have Extra Munitions, and the EM from ship A is discarded somehow, does the EM from ship B allow the remaining tokens on ship A to work? Or are ship A's tokens out of scope because the EM on ship B says "you"?

[Amraam01 154]

Look at it this way,

 

A-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->  EM rules statement on how to treat EM tokens

B------------------------------------------                                                           Physical EM card on the ship

C                                                     C                                                        Boba Fetting

 

 

At time point C, you discard the EM card.  However, there is no timing window to check for how the tokens work again- it was a statement at setup.  The only timing on how the tokens work (If they are still available at point C) is at setup.  There is not another check on the EM card during the game.   

[Spider 643]

In a tournament, are you allowed to grab your opponent's property and rub them and flip them and lick them and discard them all you want?

 

Can I take your ships off the pegs and run around the room making laser noises?

 

Do I Physically get to reach across the table and slap your cards out of the way when my Boba Fett triggers?

 

Whose hand flips the card over, is what I'm saying?

 

Discarded Cards

When a player is instructed to discard a ship card or Upgrade card, he or she flips it facedown instead.

 

If you are choosing an opponent's card to discard without being instructed to do so, what do you actually do? If we want to get anal with the wording. A player is not being asked to discard a card, the ship is being asked to discard the card, so nothing actually happens?

 

You on an equipped upgrade card refers to the ship.

 

Good work Heaver.

Apart from the rules lawyering, snarky comments addressed to Heaver for a card he designed before extra munitions were designed...seems like the wrong target of your righteous indignation.