OL vs R4-B11 and R7 Astro

[cjnj193 86]

I always assumed that OL simply makes it so the locked ship couldn't touch dice, but can do things like spending tokens and such.

 

Nope.  Using tokens (such as evades) is considered a dice modification and there negated by OL's ability.  If you're attacking/attacked by OL and he's got you locked on, you're entirely dependent on the dice roll that comes out of your hand.  You have no option of changing it after that.

 

Guess I phrased my statement in a way that ment I thought the locked ship could add or change results from dice, which I agree you totally can't do, hence me saying the locked ship can't touch dice.

[thespaceinvader 17,568]

 

The difference really isn't difficult to grasp.  From a rules perspective they would normally work identically, except in the specific case of OL having the target locked and trying to use them.

 

In both of our interpretations of OL, Juke works for OL but for different reasons. If I'm following your logic correctly, in order for R7 to not work against OL, it would have to be worded:

 

I've suggested a wording for R7 that would be blocked by OL's ability in this thread several times already, and that's not it.  Specifically:

R7 says that the attacker modifies the dice. Not the ship that has it on board. It can trigger because it says it can trigger, as an exception to the normal rules, and force the attacker to do something it doesn't want to do. Just as with Palpatine vs Howlrunner, it matters which ship does the modifying, not which ship equips the card/has the ability which allows the modification. It matters which ship modifies the dice. Round and round and round it goes. You do exactly what the card says, and the card says that the attacker modifies the dice, so it does. His pilot modifies no dice when his ability activates. If he did, it would be phrased thusly:

"Once per round when defending, if you have a target lock on the attacker, you may spend the target lock to reroll any or all of the attack dice."

This differs from what it actually says, which is

"Once per round when defending, if you have a target lock on the attacker, you may spend the target lock to choose any or all attack dice. The attacker must reroll the chosen dice."

Same exact wording change as my example in Juke, above, and these two wordings have basically identical effects, in any other case in the game *except* when Omega Leader (or Dark Curse, for that matter) is defending. I genuinely don't understand how you can read the card the way you are; you're reading something into it which absolutely IS NOT written on it.

Why don't we all just agree to wait for an FAQ?

(E: maybe we should all agree that is [boom], is [kaboom], is [eye] and is [evade])

It is functionally the same as your wording, but less wordy and more in line with the way FFG words things normally.

[SPARTAN VI 20]

Per the new FAQ. 

 

Emphasis is mine:

If omega Leader has a target lock on an 

enemy ship, and emperor Palpatine is 

equipped to a different enemy ship, the ship 

with emperor Palpatine equipped may modify 

one of the locked ship’s dice.

 

If a ship locked by omega Leader attacks 

omega Leader with a Heavy Laser Cannon, it 

does not change its results to results.

 

Adding or subtracting dice (i.e. Jan ors) and 

canceling die results (i.e. Crack shot) do 

not count as modifying dice. However, game 

effects originating from ships that omega 

Leader has locked that add die results (C-3P0, 

Advanced Targeting Computer, etc.) do count 

as modifying dice and cannot be used.

 

 

Doesn't really address the issue with R7, but it's a game effect that originated from a ship OL has locked. Is it safe the follow the same logic as the bolded section above? If so, R7 would not activate.

Edited March 15, 2016 by SPARTAN VI

[emmjay 319]

Per the new FAQ. 

 

Emphasis is mine:

If omega Leader has a target lock on an 

enemy ship, and emperor Palpatine is 

equipped to a different enemy ship, the ship 

with emperor Palpatine equipped may modify 

one of the locked ship’s dice.

 

If a ship locked by omega Leader attacks 

omega Leader with a Heavy Laser Cannon, it 

does not change its results to results.

 

Adding or subtracting dice (i.e. Jan ors) and 

canceling die results (i.e. Crack shot) do 

not count as modifying dice. However, game 

effects originating from ships that omega 

Leader has locked that add die results (C-3P0, 

Advanced Targeting Computer, etc.) do count 

as modifying dice and cannot be used.

 

 

Doesn't really address the issue with R7, but it's a game effect that originated from a ship OL has locked. Is it safe the follow the same logic as the bolded section above? If so, R7 would not activate.

That is correct.  While this ruling specifies "Add dice results", rerolling dice results is ALWAYS a modification, and thus should not be allowed based on this ruling.

[thespaceinvader 17,568]

I think that bolded part makes the intention clear, whilst it doesn't directly address the upgrades concerned.  I still don't think that they should work by the RAW on OL's card, but if the intention is 'upgrades on the defender's ship don't work' rather than 'the defender cannot modify dice' then I'm happy to accept that.

 

After all, as noted, I play OL a bunch, and this is actually a good ruling for him with respect to those cards.

 

I just hope that longer-term they do actually provide a specific answer and.or errata so the RAW matches the intent.

[WWHSD 9,273]

I just received a response from Frank regarding this:

 

 

In response to your rules question:

 

Rules Question:

 

Omega Leader is fighting Tarn Mison. Tarn has an R7 Astromech equipped. Omega Leader has a Target Lock on Tarn and is attacking him. Tarn's ability grants him a Target Lock on Omega Leader. Omega leader rolls "hit, hit". Tarn wants use the ability granted by R7 to spend his Target Lock to force Omega Leader to reroll his dice. Can Tarn do this or is the reroll considered to be a modification performed by Tarn (and thus prohibited by Omega Leader's ability)? R7 Astromech: "Once per round when defending, if you have a target lock on the attacker, you may spend the target lock to choose any or all attack dice. The attacker must reroll the chosen dice." The wording on the R7 Astromech would seem to imply that the the Defender is forcing the Attacker to modify their own dice. Omega Leader: "Enemy ships that you have locked cannot modify any dice when attacking you or defending against your attacks." Omega Leader's ability only prevents his targeted ship from modifying dice. It would seem to me that Omega Leader is unable to prevent R7 from forcing a reroll.

 

 

No abilities that involve rerolling your opponent’s dice have you roll them. Instead, we only phrase it with you choosing dice and your opponent rolling them. This is you modifying your opponents dice even though he or she is the one physically rolling the dice. So you cannot use R7 to modify “Omega Leader’s” attack dice.

 

Thanks for playing,

Frank Brooks

Associate Creative Content Developer

Fantasy Flight Games

fbrooks@fantasyflightgames.com

Edited March 22, 2016 by WWHSD

[digitalbusker 2,248]

No abilities that involve rerolling your opponent’s dice have you roll them. Instead, we only phrase it with you choosing dice and your opponent rolling them. This is you modifying your opponents dice even though he or she is the one physically rolling the dice. So you cannot use R7 to modify “Omega Leader’s” attack dice.

BOOM!

[Kalandros 401]

Yea, first reply of the original post already answered it correctly but stubbornness kept this going... for too long

[Warpman 2,115]

 

I just received a response from Frank regarding this:

 

 

In response to your rules question:

 

Rules Question:

 

Omega Leader is fighting Tarn Mison. Tarn has an R7 Astromech equipped. Omega Leader has a Target Lock on Tarn and is attacking him. Tarn's ability grants him a Target Lock on Omega Leader. Omega leader rolls "hit, hit". Tarn wants use the ability granted by R7 to spend his Target Lock to force Omega Leader to reroll his dice. Can Tarn do this or is the reroll considered to be a modification performed by Tarn (and thus prohibited by Omega Leader's ability)? R7 Astromech: "Once per round when defending, if you have a target lock on the attacker, you may spend the target lock to choose any or all attack dice. The attacker must reroll the chosen dice." The wording on the R7 Astromech would seem to imply that the the Defender is forcing the Attacker to modify their own dice. Omega Leader: "Enemy ships that you have locked cannot modify any dice when attacking you or defending against your attacks." Omega Leader's ability only prevents his targeted ship from modifying dice. It would seem to me that Omega Leader is unable to prevent R7 from forcing a reroll.

 

 

No abilities that involve rerolling your opponent’s dice have you roll them. Instead, we only phrase it with you choosing dice and your opponent rolling them. This is you modifying your opponents dice even though he or she is the one physically rolling the dice. So you cannot use R7 to modify “Omega Leader’s” attack dice.

 

Thanks for playing,

Frank Brooks

Associate Creative Content Developer

Fantasy Flight Games

fbrooks@fantasyflightgames.com

 

well, indeed sometimes Frank DERPs.

it happens