OL vs R4-B11 and R7 Astro

[cjnj193 86]

Hello people,

So topic says it all, does OL have another weakness besides palpatine? The wording does say "attacker" for R7 and "defender" for R4-b11, so it unfortunately does make sense to me

Edit: May make the topic easier if we assume Tarn + R7 and Drea + R4-b11

Edited March 9, 2016 by cjnj193

[digitalbusker 2,248]

It's still a dice modification coming from the locked ship. I think they're worded the way they are so people don't get beaten to death for touching other gamers' dice.

Still a reasonable rules form question.

[DraconPyrothayan 6,107]

So long as it isn't "You" who are modifying the dice, OL shouldn't be an issue.
​R7 forces OL to modify the dice you chose, so it works.
​R4-B11 forces OL to modify the dice you chose as well, so it also works.

[emmjay 319]

So long as it isn't "You" who are modifying the dice, OL shouldn't be an issue.

​R7 forces OL to modify the dice you chose, so it works.

​R4-B11 forces OL to modify the dice you chose as well, so it also works.

Sorry, no, that is incorrect. 

Omega Leader - Enemy ships that you have locked cannot modify any dice when attacking you or defending against your attacks.

 

1.  You refers to Omega Leader,

2.  The "Ship" referred to here has the red target lock token - is the ship, pilot ability, and any upgrade cards - such as C-3P0, R7, etc.

3.  "Modify" means to add, change, or reroll AFTER the initial roll of the dice (so things like Miranda's ability still works).

4.  R7 and F4-B11 only  works with the ship it is on, it does NOT work when another ship in your squad is attacking or defending.

 

Because NO dice can be modified by the SHIP (and its upgrade cards) with the red target lock icon, R4-B11 (which works when attacking) or R7 (which works when defending) have no effect when OL has that ship targeted.

[cjnj193 86]

Gonna say Tarn is the pilot just to keep things less confusing

The thing with R7 is that Tarn isn't rerolling the dice, but rather he is making OL reroll them, which leads me to believe that Tarn would win in this case and force OL to reroll his own dice.

[StephenEsven 632]

The one who modifies the dice and the one that reroll the actual dice are not the same. If forcing OL to modify the dice, the cards would never trigger as they would not qualify as an effect that allows an attacker to modify defence dice or defenders to modify attack dice.

[WWHSD 9,273]

I submitted this as a rules question to FFG a few weeks ago and haven't heard back. 

I tend to think that because those cards would force Omega Leader to reroll his own dice that they would be permitted.

 

The argument that the ship with the upgrade is performing the modification but because FFG doesn't want players touching each others stuff the physical act of rerolling is handled by OL does kind of make sense to me though. 

Edited March 9, 2016 by WWHSD

[thespaceinvader 17,568]

I submitted this as a rules question to FFG a few weeks ago and haven't heard back. 

I tend to think that because those cards would force Omega Leader to reroll his own dice that they would be permitted.

 

The argument that the ship with the upgrade is performing the modification but because FFG doesn't want players touching each others stuff the physical act of rerolling is handled by OL does kind of make sense to me though. 

Well, except that there are a wide range of upgrades and abilities that allow one player to modify an opposing player's dice directly, not least OL's favourite EPT, Juke...

Edited March 9, 2016 by thespaceinvader

[StephenEsven 632]

I submitted this as a rules question to FFG a few weeks ago and haven't heard back. 

I tend to think that because those cards would force Omega Leader to reroll his own dice that they would be permitted.

 

The argument that the ship with the upgrade is performing the modification but because FFG doesn't want players touching each others stuff the physical act of rerolling is handled by OL does kind of make sense to me though.

If it is not an effect that modifies the opponents dice, when would the cards be used?

[WWHSD 9,273]

 

I submitted this as a rules question to FFG a few weeks ago and haven't heard back. 

I tend to think that because those cards would force Omega Leader to reroll his own dice that they would be permitted.

 

The argument that the ship with the upgrade is performing the modification but because FFG doesn't want players touching each others stuff the physical act of rerolling is handled by OL does kind of make sense to me though.

If it is not an effect that modifies the opponents dice, when would the cards be used?

 

 

I don't think anyone is disputing that it is an effect that modifies the opponents dice. What is being disputed is whether it is the owner of the effect or the one that actually rerolls the dice that counts as performing the modification.

 

When it happens doesn't seem like it would matter (as long as it is happening sometime during an attack). I'm guessing that you are referring to this bit:

 

"Modify Attack Dice: The defender can

resolve any card abilities that allow him to modify

the attack dice. "

 

The ruling on Palpatine shows that there are other things that can happen at this time other than abilities that have the defender modifying dice. 

[emmjay 319]

 

 

I submitted this as a rules question to FFG a few weeks ago and haven't heard back. 

I tend to think that because those cards would force Omega Leader to reroll his own dice that they would be permitted.

 

The argument that the ship with the upgrade is performing the modification but because FFG doesn't want players touching each others stuff the physical act of rerolling is handled by OL does kind of make sense to me though.

If it is not an effect that modifies the opponents dice, when would the cards be used?

 

 

I don't think anyone is disputing that it is an effect that modifies the opponents dice. What is being disputed is whether it is the owner of the effect or the one that actually rerolls the dice that counts as performing the modification.

 

When it happens doesn't seem like it would matter (as long as it is happening sometime during an attack). I'm guessing that you are referring to this bit:

 

"Modify Attack Dice: The defender can

resolve any card abilities that allow him to modify

the attack dice. "

 

The ruling on Palpatine shows that there are other things that can happen at this time other than abilities that have the defender modifying dice. 

 

 

However, the difference is that the ruling on Palpatine is that he is allowed to modify dice of the red target locked ship ONLY if the Shuttle/VT isn't  the locked ship.  Palp can modify dice of other ships, but if OL locks Palps ship then his ability doesn't work (for OL's attack/defense)

[StephenEsven 632]

 

 

I submitted this as a rules question to FFG a few weeks ago and haven't heard back. 

I tend to think that because those cards would force Omega Leader to reroll his own dice that they would be permitted.

 

The argument that the ship with the upgrade is performing the modification but because FFG doesn't want players touching each others stuff the physical act of rerolling is handled by OL does kind of make sense to me though.

If it is not an effect that modifies the opponents dice, when would the cards be used?

 

 

I don't think anyone is disputing that it is an effect that modifies the opponents dice. What is being disputed is whether it is the owner of the effect or the one that actually rerolls the dice that counts as performing the modification.

 

When it happens doesn't seem like it would matter (as long as it is happening sometime during an attack). I'm guessing that you are referring to this bit:

 

"Modify Attack Dice: The defender can

resolve any card abilities that allow him to modify

the attack dice. "

 

The ruling on Palpatine shows that there are other things that can happen at this time other than abilities that have the defender modifying dice. 

 

Yes I am referring to that, and Palpatine is not an exception. In the sentence above defender ir referring to the player not just the ship.

And what I was trying to get at, was that there is no timing for cards that forces a reroll of the enemys dice, if they are not effects that allow you to modify the enemy dice.

[thespaceinvader 17,568]

 

 

 

I submitted this as a rules question to FFG a few weeks ago and haven't heard back. 

I tend to think that because those cards would force Omega Leader to reroll his own dice that they would be permitted.

 

The argument that the ship with the upgrade is performing the modification but because FFG doesn't want players touching each others stuff the physical act of rerolling is handled by OL does kind of make sense to me though.

If it is not an effect that modifies the opponents dice, when would the cards be used?

 

 

I don't think anyone is disputing that it is an effect that modifies the opponents dice. What is being disputed is whether it is the owner of the effect or the one that actually rerolls the dice that counts as performing the modification.

 

When it happens doesn't seem like it would matter (as long as it is happening sometime during an attack). I'm guessing that you are referring to this bit:

 

"Modify Attack Dice: The defender can

resolve any card abilities that allow him to modify

the attack dice. "

 

The ruling on Palpatine shows that there are other things that can happen at this time other than abilities that have the defender modifying dice. 

 

 

However, the difference is that the ruling on Palpatine is that he is allowed to modify dice of the red target locked ship ONLY if the Shuttle/VT isn't  the locked ship.  Palp can modify dice of other ships, but if OL locks Palps ship then his ability doesn't work (for OL's attack/defense)

 

THis is irrelevant.  If OL locks and attacks or is attacked by him, Palp fails.  But that's because Palp's ship is attempting to modify its own dice, which OL prevents.

 

But the situation here is not analogous; the cards in question force OL to modify his own dice, which his ability does not block regardless of which ship is doing it.

It's entirely possible that that isn't RAI and these cards will be updated - they were written prior to a time when it mattered which ship was modifying, after all - but as RAW stands, they work.

Edited March 9, 2016 by thespaceinvader

[WWHSD 9,273]

 

 

 

I submitted this as a rules question to FFG a few weeks ago and haven't heard back. 

I tend to think that because those cards would force Omega Leader to reroll his own dice that they would be permitted.

 

The argument that the ship with the upgrade is performing the modification but because FFG doesn't want players touching each others stuff the physical act of rerolling is handled by OL does kind of make sense to me though.

If it is not an effect that modifies the opponents dice, when would the cards be used?

 

 

I don't think anyone is disputing that it is an effect that modifies the opponents dice. What is being disputed is whether it is the owner of the effect or the one that actually rerolls the dice that counts as performing the modification.

 

When it happens doesn't seem like it would matter (as long as it is happening sometime during an attack). I'm guessing that you are referring to this bit:

 

"Modify Attack Dice: The defender can

resolve any card abilities that allow him to modify

the attack dice. "

 

The ruling on Palpatine shows that there are other things that can happen at this time other than abilities that have the defender modifying dice. 

 

 

However, the difference is that the ruling on Palpatine is that he is allowed to modify dice of the red target locked ship ONLY if the Shuttle/VT isn't  the locked ship.  Palp can modify dice of other ships, but if OL locks Palps ship then his ability doesn't work (for OL's attack/defense)

 

 

 

So when would Palpatine trigger?  If we use a strict reading of the following block from the rules, there is no window for ships other than the attack or defender to use abilities which allow them to modify dice. We have an example of one modification that happens during this window that doesn't count at as the Defender doing the modification, why couldn't we have more? The cards in question very clearly state who it is that rerolls the dice.

 

"Modify Attack Dice: The defender can

resolve any card abilities that allow him to modify

the attack dice. Then the attacker can modify his

attack dice in one or more of the following ways

as many times as possible"

[WWHSD 9,273]

 

 

 

I submitted this as a rules question to FFG a few weeks ago and haven't heard back. 

I tend to think that because those cards would force Omega Leader to reroll his own dice that they would be permitted.

 

The argument that the ship with the upgrade is performing the modification but because FFG doesn't want players touching each others stuff the physical act of rerolling is handled by OL does kind of make sense to me though.

If it is not an effect that modifies the opponents dice, when would the cards be used?

 

 

I don't think anyone is disputing that it is an effect that modifies the opponents dice. What is being disputed is whether it is the owner of the effect or the one that actually rerolls the dice that counts as performing the modification.

 

When it happens doesn't seem like it would matter (as long as it is happening sometime during an attack). I'm guessing that you are referring to this bit:

 

"Modify Attack Dice: The defender can

resolve any card abilities that allow him to modify

the attack dice. "

 

The ruling on Palpatine shows that there are other things that can happen at this time other than abilities that have the defender modifying dice. 

 

Yes I am referring to that, and Palpatine is not an exception. In the sentence above defender ir referring to the player not just the ship.

And what I was trying to get at, was that there is no timing for cards that forces a reroll of the enemys dice, if they are not effects that allow you to modify the enemy dice.

 

 

Attacker and Defender are defined words that refer directly to ships, and not to players.

 

"ATTACKER

The ship that is performing an attack is the attacker."

 

"DEFENDER

The ship that is successfully targeted during the

“Declare Target” step of an attack is the defender."

[StephenEsven 632]

 

 

 

 

I submitted this as a rules question to FFG a few weeks ago and haven't heard back. 

I tend to think that because those cards would force Omega Leader to reroll his own dice that they would be permitted.

 

The argument that the ship with the upgrade is performing the modification but because FFG doesn't want players touching each others stuff the physical act of rerolling is handled by OL does kind of make sense to me though.

If it is not an effect that modifies the opponents dice, when would the cards be used?

 

 

I don't think anyone is disputing that it is an effect that modifies the opponents dice. What is being disputed is whether it is the owner of the effect or the one that actually rerolls the dice that counts as performing the modification.

 

When it happens doesn't seem like it would matter (as long as it is happening sometime during an attack). I'm guessing that you are referring to this bit:

 

"Modify Attack Dice: The defender can

resolve any card abilities that allow him to modify

the attack dice. "

 

The ruling on Palpatine shows that there are other things that can happen at this time other than abilities that have the defender modifying dice. 

 

 

However, the difference is that the ruling on Palpatine is that he is allowed to modify dice of the red target locked ship ONLY if the Shuttle/VT isn't  the locked ship.  Palp can modify dice of other ships, but if OL locks Palps ship then his ability doesn't work (for OL's attack/defense)

 

 

 

So when would Palpatine trigger?  If we use a strict reading of the following block from the rules, there is no window for ships other than the attack or defender to use abilities which allow them to modify dice. We have an example of one modification that happens during this window that doesn't count at as the Defender doing the modification, why couldn't we have more? The cards in question very clearly state who it is that rerolls the dice.

 

"Modify Attack Dice: The defender can

resolve any card abilities that allow him to modify

the attack dice. Then the attacker can modify his

attack dice in one or more of the following ways

as many times as possible"

 

You are right. Palpatine doesn't RAW satisfy the criteria above. However he has his own timing that allows him to work once per round when there are friendly dice results that can be modified.

Technically he can do that from the dice are rolled until they are cancelled. During an attack/defense it is optimal to do this during the same timing window as all other dice modifications, because the opponent has already done his modifications. And in the case of Palpatine affecting his own ship, he actually does satisfy the criteria above.

Thus he is usually just chucked up to work during this step.

[thespaceinvader 17,568]

Palpatine is a general rule separate from the phases of attack and defence, that just allows the ship he is on to modify a die rolled by any friendly ship when that die is rolled.  His ability isn't (directly) accounted for in the 'modify dice' steps.

[WWHSD 9,273]

 

Technically he can do that from the dice are rolled until they are cancelled. During an attack/defense it is optimal to do this during the same timing window as all other dice modifications, because the opponent has already done his modifications. And in the case of Palpatine affecting his own ship, he actually does satisfy the criteria above.

Thus he is usually just chucked up to work during this step.

 

 

 

You can't use Palpatine at any time during the attack. He must be used during the appropriate modify dice step. If you could use him whenever you'd like to the optimal time to use him would be during the "Compare Results" step. This would force opponents to spend tokens assuming that Palpatine would be used and you'd never end up using him when his modified result would be canceled.

[thespaceinvader 17,568]

Strictly, I'd argue that Palp has to be used immediately upon the dice being rolled, and would happen prior to the modify dice steps (unless you used him after a reroll).  His trigger is 'a friendly ship rolls a die', and has nothing to do with the steps of the attack that's going on.

[StephenEsven 632]

Yes you are right, it might be more optimal to use Palpatine to change after the defender modifies defence dice, as it might force him to spendan evade token to cancel a potential crit, Palpatine hasn't produced yet.

But where are you getting the idea from that he has to be used at the appropriate modify step? That was exactly what I argued above that he is not subject to, except if he is modifying his own dice. He does not qualify as a card effect that modifies attack/defense dice when modifying another ships dice result. So only the card text limits when he can be used. Which is while there is a dice result to modify. Which is anywere between rolling the dice and cancelling the dice.

[WWHSD 9,273]

.

But where are you getting the idea from that he has to be used at the appropriate modify step? 

 

FAQ, pg. 12:

 

"When attacking or defending, Emperor Palpatine can

be used during the “Modify Attack Dice” or “Modify

Defense Dice” steps respectively"

[StephenEsven 632]

 

.

But where are you getting the idea from that he has to be used at the appropriate modify step? 

 

FAQ, pg. 12:

 

"When attacking or defending, Emperor Palpatine can

be used during the “Modify Attack Dice” or “Modify

Defense Dice” steps respectively"

 

OK, forgot that one. But this is then FFG telling us that we should use Palpatine during this step, because it is not clear from the card text. But it is not because Palpatine qualities as a defender/attacker modifies attackers/defenders dice card. It is just FFG trying to make a consistent timing for Palpatine and the usual modify effects.

[thespaceinvader 17,568]

Huh, didn't know about that FAQ.  It is a good FAQ.

[emmjay 319]

Everyone is forgetting one major point: OL states that the opponent can't modify ANY dice - it doesn't specify that they can't modify their own dice.  Because they can't modify any dice, that means theirs, their opponents, or anyone elses dice.  It doesn't matter who rolls those dice.  Both astromechs trigger during their respective "Modify Dice" step and it goes without argument that they are dice modifications.

 

So they don't work with OL target locking them.

[WWHSD 9,273]

Everyone is forgetting one major point: OL states that the opponent can't modify ANY dice - it doesn't specify that they can't modify their own dice.  

 

No one is forgetting that. They just disagree on who is modifying the dice with these particular upgrades.