[SW: Force and Destiny] Surrealistik's Fix For Making the Dark Side Not Suck

[Surrealistik 10]

To start, the Light Side is straight up better than the Dark Side; per the existing Rules As Written:

 

Light Side Benefits:

Start each session with +1 Light Side Destiny.

Gain up to 2 Strain with no downside.

 

 

Dark Side Benefits:

Gain up to 2 Wounds (1 for each Strain lost).

 

Dark Side Liabilities:

Start each session with +1 Dark Side Destiny.

Lose up to 2 Strain (1 for each Wound gained).

 

 

Given that Strain capacity is more valuable than Wounds as they're used for so many talents and abilities, including preventing the taking of Wounds via Reflect/Parry on at least a 1:1 basis and the unreciprocated generation of a Dark Side destiny point, it is painfully apparent that the Dark Side is in balance a clear net liability. Furthermore, all rule books appear to value each point of Strain as being worth 2 Wounds; this is noted most prominently in the case of the talents Grit and Toughened.

 

Though I understand and empathize with the desire to incentivize Light Side characters as they make for a more painless roleplay experience among inexperienced groups whose members cannot be trusted to not play Dark Side characters as backstabbing murderhobos, in terms of mechanical balance and game design, this very one sided distribution of benefits is wanting and creates a deficit of interesting choices.

 

My solution, which I feel also makes neutrality more appealing and plays to verisimilitude/internal consistency: https://docs.google.com/document/d/13CIreSi0-Lz_XOfOC8YDcd4Iaa6p-tb78VjtRDZWxmg/edit?usp=sharing

Edited March 8, 2016 by Surrealistik

[Richardbuxton 7,319]

Hmm I'm not a big fan, its doing too much IMHO. Remember that on the actual dice there are 7 to 5 sides with Dark Side pips. So your forgetting that a Dark Side user will more often get pips (although less of them per die) that they can use, so the base powers tend to be much easier to pull off. This is s definite benefit to being Dark Side, especially early on. Obviously Lightside characters can do more powerful things, but they need to be patient, it won't happen every time.

Your also forgetting that a Lightside character gets conflict for using a DS pip, something they don't want at all. Meanwhile a Darkside character doesn't care if all they need to do is spend a little strain to get a more powerful effect.

It's not just the benefits at the beginning of the session that need to be considered, it's the approach to how everyone uses the force during play that's also an important part of the balance.

It's the old "easier yes, more powerful it is not" (or something like that I can't remember!) it's built this way specifically, to be in line with FFG and LFL's idea of how the force works

[Surrealistik 10]

Hmm I'm not a big fan, its doing too much IMHO. Remember that on the actual dice there are 7 to 5 sides with Dark Side pips. So your forgetting that a Dark Side user will more often get pips (although less of them per die) that they can use, so the base powers tend to be much easier to pull off. This is s definite benefit to being Dark Side, especially early on. Obviously Lightside characters can do more powerful things, but they need to be patient, it won't happen every time.

Your also forgetting that a Lightside character gets conflict for using a DS pip, something they don't want at all. Meanwhile a Darkside character doesn't care if all they need to do is spend a little strain to get a more powerful effect.

It's not just the benefits at the beginning of the session that need to be considered, it's the approach to how everyone uses the force during play that's also an important part of the balance.

It's the old "easier yes, more powerful it is not" (or something like that I can't remember!) it's built this way specifically, to be in line with FFG and LFL's idea of how the force works

 

In terms of Dark vs Light Side pip distribution on the dice, yes DS pips are more consistent, but double LS pips are more likely; the expected value of Dark and Light Side pips is exactly equal (probability x amount).

 

I'm aware that Lightside characters get Conflict for using DS pips; in practice though, this doesn't mean a whole lot unless you are exceedingly dependent on force powers, and they are used constantly over the course of a session.

 

Further, even if I were to assume that the DS is in fact somewhat weaker than the LS, I'm definitely not of the opinion that it should be this nerfed and underpowered by contrast; there is nothing seductive or even easy (hence the 'Embracing the Dark Side rule) about the Dark Side as it stands.

[StarkJunior 1,240]

Yeah, the Dark Side is fine as designed because it is easier to follow in-universe - also remember, the seduction and easiness comes from the narrative aspect, not the mechanic. 

[Surrealistik 10]

Yeah, the Dark Side is fine as designed because it is easier to follow in-universe - also remember, the seduction and easiness comes from the narrative aspect, not the mechanic. 

 

Why shouldn't it come from both?

 

Further, in all honesty, I'm not sure what about the Dark Side easier to follow in universe per the current mechanical design.

[StarkJunior 1,240]

 

Yeah, the Dark Side is fine as designed because it is easier to follow in-universe - also remember, the seduction and easiness comes from the narrative aspect, not the mechanic. 

 

Why shouldn't it come from both?

 

Further, in all honesty, I'm not sure what about the Dark Side easier to follow in universe per the current mechanical design.

 

 

It's one of those instances where you have to separate narrative from the mechanic. When Morality choices come into play, the easier option should be the one that is 'dark side'. It challenges the character, and if you choose the easier path, you don't get the good stuff.

[Surrealistik 10]

 

 

Yeah, the Dark Side is fine as designed because it is easier to follow in-universe - also remember, the seduction and easiness comes from the narrative aspect, not the mechanic. 

 

Why shouldn't it come from both?

 

Further, in all honesty, I'm not sure what about the Dark Side easier to follow in universe per the current mechanical design.

 

 

It's one of those instances where you have to separate narrative from the mechanic. When Morality choices come into play, the easier option should be the one that is 'dark side'. It challenges the character, and if you choose the easier path, you don't get the good stuff.

 

 

When consequences are factored in, the Dark Side path rarely proves easier. Honestly there have only been a couple of times where being a dickwad was unambiguously the way to go from a perspective of self-interest beyond the most myopic analysis.

 

Further, drawing on the Dark Side itself was in canon virtually always considered to be easier and more expedient.

Edited March 8, 2016 by Surrealistik

[Kael 1,865]

 

 

When consequences are factored in, the Dark Side path rarely proves easier. Honestly there have only been a couple of times where being a dickwad was unambiguously the way to go from a perspective of self-interest beyond the most myopic analysis.

Further, drawing on the Dark Side itself was in canon virtually always considered to be easier and more expedient.

 

 

I don't know what kind of people you game with or where you get your ideas on Dark Side and evil but going Dark Side isn't about being a dickwad. There are soooooooo many ways to go evil, to make the evil choice that does not involve being a dickwad to anyone. Choosing to chase down the villain after he knocks a bystander into traffic isn't a dickwad move. But letting them die so you can catch the villain is easier and darker. One can make a "greater" good argument for why allowing them die was necessary. There is nothing dickwad about that. Though it is far from what a good person would do.

[Lanuria 50]

 

Yeah, the Dark Side is fine as designed because it is easier to follow in-universe - also remember, the seduction and easiness comes from the narrative aspect, not the mechanic. 

 

Why shouldn't it come from both?

 

Further, in all honesty, I'm not sure what about the Dark Side easier to follow in universe per the current mechanical design.

 

 

If you're asking why it's easier to follow the Dark Side mechanically--you have a better chance of rolling a DS pip. There are 7 DS sides and only 5 LS sides of the Force Dice. Therefore, you have a better chance of rolling a Dark Side pip.

 

So, it's easier to use the Dark Side, since you have a much better chance at rolling that. But it isn't stronger than the Light Side. There are 8 pips of each DS and LS...and since there are less sides for LS, if you roll LS, you have a better chance at rolling 2 LS ...and with DS pips, you have a better chance of rolling just 1 DS pip.

 

The Dark Side is easier to use mechanically because it comes up more often in rolls, but it isn't as strong or powerful as the Light Side would be.

 

edit: Ugh, I didn't see the post made by Richardbuxton explaining all this already. Sorry!

Edited March 9, 2016 by Lanuria

[Blackbird888 4,110]

Light side is stronger anyway, yes?

[Lanuria 50]

Light side is stronger anyway, yes?

 

Yes, it is! 

 

At least, that is what I understand. The Light Side is stronger because, in character, you are working with the Force. The Force is all around you, it's natural it just flows through your body. So if you can work alongside of it, work with it, imagine how strong you can be!

 

In order to work alongside the Force, you have to temper yourself. You have to be at peace, you have to be calm and relaxed and that's really flipping hard when you have Stormtroopers shooting at you and Inquisitors hunting you down. It takes concentration and willpower to work with the Force.

 

But the Dark Side, it's easy. You still are able to use the Force, but you're not working with it, you're working against it. But you don't have to be calmed and relaxed...heck, it works better when you're angry and scared and full of negative emotions...the kind of emotions you get when you have Stormtroopers shooting at you and Inquisitors hunting you down. It's easy to just let yourself go, but the Force isn't with you.

[Richardbuxton 7,319]

The easy is that out of every 12 rolls of the dice some amount of Dark Side comes up 7 times. The not more powerful is that of the 5/12 times Lightside comes up your more likely to get 2 pips.

The balance is what you pointed out that there are 8 of each pip, so the average equals.

[Radon Antila 189]

Further, in all honesty, I'm not sure what about the Dark Side easier to follow in universe per the current mechanical design.

 

It's actually rather simple: just look at the Force Die from the perspective of the Force User.

 

If I am a Jedi, then the Force Die tells me I have 5 in 12 chance of succeeding with Force Heal, because I would rather fail than use a Dark Side Force Point. From my perspective, the Force Die is "5 sides success, 7 sides blank."

 

If I am a Sith, then the Force Die tells me I have 12 in 12 chance of succeeding with Force Lightning (Unleash), because what do I care if I have to use a Light Side Point? I'll happily flip the Destiny Point and take the strain to fry my target. From my perspective, the Force Die is "7 sides success, 5 sides success with a cost."

Edited March 9, 2016 by Radon Antila

[Surrealistik 10]

 

 

 

When consequences are factored in, the Dark Side path rarely proves easier. Honestly there have only been a couple of times where being a dickwad was unambiguously the way to go from a perspective of self-interest beyond the most myopic analysis.

Further, drawing on the Dark Side itself was in canon virtually always considered to be easier and more expedient.

 

 

I don't know what kind of people you game with or where you get your ideas on Dark Side and evil but going Dark Side isn't about being a dickwad. There are soooooooo many ways to go evil, to make the evil choice that does not involve being a dickwad to anyone. Choosing to chase down the villain after he knocks a bystander into traffic isn't a dickwad move. But letting them die so you can catch the villain is easier and darker. One can make a "greater" good argument for why allowing them die was necessary. There is nothing dickwad about that. Though it is far from what a good person would do.

 

 

Dickwad is a stand in for evil, which is the nature of the Dark Side: malevolence and the self above all else; that sort of behaviour can and does often make things harder, at least in the medium or long term. Greater good arguments don't necessarily default to evil; it depends on the context. What you described there is more grey than Dark Side.

 

 

 

 

Yeah, the Dark Side is fine as designed because it is easier to follow in-universe - also remember, the seduction and easiness comes from the narrative aspect, not the mechanic. 

 

Why shouldn't it come from both?

 

Further, in all honesty, I'm not sure what about the Dark Side easier to follow in universe per the current mechanical design.

 

 

If you're asking why it's easier to follow the Dark Side mechanically--you have a better chance of rolling a DS pip. There are 7 DS sides and only 5 LS sides of the Force Dice. Therefore, you have a better chance of rolling a Dark Side pip.

 

So, it's easier to use the Dark Side, since you have a much better chance at rolling that. But it isn't stronger than the Light Side. There are 8 pips of each DS and LS...and since there are less sides for LS, if you roll LS, you have a better chance at rolling 2 LS ...and with DS pips, you have a better chance of rolling just 1 DS pip.

 

The Dark Side is easier to use mechanically because it comes up more often in rolls, but it isn't as strong or powerful as the Light Side would be.

 

edit: Ugh, I didn't see the post made by Richardbuxton explaining all this already. Sorry!

 

 

 

The easy is that out of every 12 rolls of the dice some amount of Dark Side comes up 7 times. The not more powerful is that of the 5/12 times Lightside comes up your more likely to get 2 pips.

The balance is what you pointed out that there are 8 of each pip, so the average equals.

 

More consistent != to easy.

 

Yes, it can be expedient to take Dark Side as needed when it invariably comes up, but flipping a Destiny Point and taking Strain is not what I would consider easy, and it most definitely does not reflect the seductive nature of the Dark Side as easy power. Perhaps this captures its qualities of omnipresence and availability, but not ease.

Edited March 9, 2016 by Surrealistik

[Lanuria 50]

 

 

More consistent != to easy.

 

Yes, it can be expedient to take Dark Side as needed when it invariably comes up, but flipping a Destiny Point and taking strain is not what I would consider easy, and it most definitely does not reflect the seductive nature of the Dark Side as easy power; omnipresent, and available, perhaps.

 

 

 

Oh, but it is tempting and seductive. I mean, I could have used that Destiny point later to upgrade a check, but..ehh, I'll just use it now to do something cool and hit this guy. When it comes down to the wire, if I have a destiny point available and I can kill someone, but I have to flip it to use the Dark Side pips I rolled, I'm going to do it.

 

You take strain because the Dark Side is corrupting. You shouldn't WANT to use Dark Side pips. The Dark Side is BAD. It hurts you, it hurts the people around you. You flip a Destiny Point because you are literally working against the Force and the galaxy.  

 

But what's a single strain if I can kill this guy hurting my friends? What's a Destiny Point if I can end this fight?

 

I dunno, my group uses Destiny Points all the time. I keep them flying when I'm GMing and I use them a lot when I'm a player and the GMs I have all make use of them as well so no one is ever hoarding any points. I guess for some groups, people hoard their Destiny Points--but that's not an issue with the mechanics, that's an issue with the players and the GM. 

[Surrealistik 10]

Tempting and seductive when you would get overwhelming value out of it yes.

 

At all other times, it ain't worth the DP, and I'm the furthest thing from being seduced.

 

Either way, definitely not 'easy' power, whereas in canon it's supposed to be: accessible and easy at no evident cost except the inevitable but unforeseen dependency, moral decay and degradation.

Edited March 9, 2016 by Surrealistik

[Radon Antila 189]

At all other times, it ain't worth the DP, and I'm the furthest thing from being seduced.

 

The Destiny Point pool is supposed to represent the on-going struggle of balance between the Light Side and the Dark Side of the Force. This pool it is not intended to be calculated using any sort of cost-benefit analysis.

 

If you, either as player or GM, consider Destiny Points to have intrisic worth that you question and compute every use of them, then your playgroup is using them incorrectly. They are meant to be spent with relative abandon, specially by the GM.

 

There is no "winning" or "losing" the Destiny Pool. If the pool is all Light Side, then the players are not using them enough. If the pool is all Dark Side, then the GM is not using them enough.

 

And if you, as a player, are "far from being seduced," then your GM is not telling a story compelling enough to put your character in a situation that tapping into the Dark Side of the Force is a viable option!

 

And if you, as a GM, are not spending DPs for your unredeemable Dark Jedi and Sith Nemeses when they roll Light Side Points, you are playing them incorrectly.

[Surrealistik 10]

You can't paper over blatant mechanical flaws and verisimilitude disconnects by blaming the players and GM for acting like anyone could be reasonably expected to.

 

The fact is that using DP definitely features some modicum of thought and cost/benefit analysis in practice: it's a resource like Wounds, Strain, credits, etc... and is utilized accordingly. I strongly suspect the number of groups that blow it on straight up superfluous and non-critical rolls without even giving it a moment's thought are few and far in between if at all existent.

 

Further, because DP is a resource with value and meaning, and because Dark Side pips come saddled with other costs as well, spending a point to use Dark Side pips outside of a high return instance is unlikely, which in turn is a problem, precisely because the Dark Side in canon is supposed to be A: available and omnipresent, waiting for a moment of weakness, and B: easy; accessible, and therefore seductive. As a iconic trait of the Dark Side, the former is represented; the latter not at all. There is no temptation to use Dark Side outside of times of dire need because doing so is burdened with significant costs.

[LordBritish 1,016]

Ultimately, using destiny pips effectively requires the player to have abilitys that require the rolling of dice, heal, battle meditation, protect/unleash, heal/harm, hawkbat swoop or draw closer fall under this also. Illusion, these are all powers that require pips to work as otherwise the player does nothing this turn. That is how you tempt players slowly.

My philosophy is that conflict driven situations are rare, but the few times that they do come up should prove pivotal to the plot and thus generate gigantic conflict scores if taken, if not the player has to do it the hard way or fail. Like setting up a terrorist attack that has a huge risk of civilian casualties, or targeting a general/Moffat/important persons family to get them to make mistakes. That is how the big conflict changers should be.

Otherwise not every campiagn has to have a fall, it is a tool to be used by the player and dm, both should be prepared to compromise.

[Donovan Morningfire 10,200]

I have to agree, the OP's post is a "patch" for a problem that really doesn't exist.

 

The dark side isn't meant to be "stronger" or "better" in the both the way the game works and in the lore of the setting.  Yoda explicitly calls it out as the quick and easy path, directly telling Luke that the dark side is not stronger.  In The Force Awakens, we see Kylo Ren, having fully committed himself to the dark side, get schooled in a lightsaber battle by Rey once she taps into the light side of the Force.

 

As others have noted, being a dark sider does mean that you're more likely to get usable pips to activate your Force powers, especially at Force Rating 1 and also with Force Rating 2, though at FR2 the balance starts to tip a bit more in favor of the light side as you've got better odds of getting 2 LS pips on at least one of your two dice (but by no means is it a guarantee).  At Force Rating 3 (typically when one would be considered a proper Jedi Knight in terms of Force ability), the light side is on equal if not slightly stronger footing as the PC now has a very good chance of getting at least 2 LS pips when rolling for their Force powers, and thus can do so without any real consequence.

 

Plus, being a Light Side Paragon shouldn't be easy, provided the GM is using the Conflict mechanic correctly, something that a lot of GMs seem to be having a lot of trouble with, generally by not providing situations where the PCs have to make tough moral choices, ones where doing what is easy should earn them significant Conflict while doing what's right will let them avoid earning Conflict at the expense of making things that much harder for them.

[Radon Antila 189]

You can't paper over blatant mechanical flaws and verisimilitude disconnects by blaming the players and GM for acting like anyone could be reasonably expected to.

 

What "blatant mechanical flaw?" There's an entire section dedicated to "Destiny Point Economy in Gameplay" right there in p.37!

 

You don't get to blame the book for problems that only exist because your group refuses to spend Destiny Points with the frequency the text recommends.

[StarkJunior 1,240]

 

You can't paper over blatant mechanical flaws and verisimilitude disconnects by blaming the players and GM for acting like anyone could be reasonably expected to.

 

What "blatant mechanical flaw?" There's an entire section dedicated to "Destiny Point Economy in Gameplay" right there in p.37!

 

You don't get to blame the book for problems that only exist because your group refuses to spend Destiny Points with the frequency the text recommends.

 

 

I've noticed when a lot of people on these boards make solutions for non-existent problems, they always blame a "blatant mechanical flaw". 

[Absol197 5,296]

My "fix" for this, such as it is, is to eliminate the need to spend a Destiny Point or take strain in order to use Dark Side pips when your Morality is between 70 and 30. If you're not a Paragon or a Darksider, both sides of the Force are equally easy to use, and have no immediate drawbacks. And because of the noted purveyors of DS pips, someone who isn't trained in the Force and therefore doesn't know the difference is likely to spend any points that come up, which will slowly send them on a spiral towards the Dark Side.

There! For unaligned Force users, the Dark Side has become much easier to use and much more tempting - easy, consequence-free Force points whenever you need them! No having to keep trying to get LS pips, especially in an emergency, they're right there! It's almost like it WANTS you to have them...

[Kael 1,865]

 

 

 

 

When consequences are factored in, the Dark Side path rarely proves easier. Honestly there have only been a couple of times where being a dickwad was unambiguously the way to go from a perspective of self-interest beyond the most myopic analysis.

Further, drawing on the Dark Side itself was in canon virtually always considered to be easier and more expedient.

 

 

I don't know what kind of people you game with or where you get your ideas on Dark Side and evil but going Dark Side isn't about being a dickwad. There are soooooooo many ways to go evil, to make the evil choice that does not involve being a dickwad to anyone. Choosing to chase down the villain after he knocks a bystander into traffic isn't a dickwad move. But letting them die so you can catch the villain is easier and darker. One can make a "greater" good argument for why allowing them die was necessary. There is nothing dickwad about that. Though it is far from what a good person would do.

 

 

Dickwad is a stand in for evil, which is the nature of the Dark Side: malevolence and the self above all else; that sort of behaviour can and does often make things harder, at least in the medium or long term. Greater good arguments don't necessarily default to evil; it depends on the context. What you described there is more grey than Dark Side.

 

The nature of the Dark side and evil is not to be a dickwad. If that's how you view it then you're come at evil and the Dark side wrong and that is likely a cause of why you're not happy with the rules. Also the dark side is supposed to make things harder in the medium and long term. That's the point. It's easy for a short time. Yoda says as much. 

 

Also I never said greater good defaults to evil, but in my suggested situation the act of leaving the bystander to die would gain you Conflict, which would have bearing on whether or not you move closer to the Dark side. Indifference towards innocent life is starting down the path of evil. Once you rationalize that away it becomes easier and easier to rationalize other .... much bigger and darker actions. What I illustrated was the start down the path to becoming evil (indifference towards innocent life). The greater good is often times the stepping stone to darker and more evil actions. Very few evil characters are actually evil for the sake of. They are typically that way because they have come to the conclusion that their evil methods are the only means to achieve the goal. This goal, in many cases, can be noble. Anakin's fall is a perfect example of how doing something for the greater good can become evil. 

[Donovan Morningfire 10,200]

Plot Spoiler for Chronicles of the Gatekeeper...

 

Part of that adventure's plot is that as the PCs are acquiring the macguffin crystals to unlock more of the holocron's secrets, they come to learn that the Jedi who created the special Force power came to adopt an "ends justifies the means" stance, one that eventually got him into seriously hot water with his fellow Jedi as the guy slid further and further into the dark side, all while convinced he was doing the right thing by acting on his premonitions.

 

In the films as well as Clone Wars TV series, you see Anakin slide into this line of thinking of well, that as long it's for the "greater good" then it excuses "lesser" trespasses, with the definition of "lesser" growing looser and looser, until he pretty much falls completely during RotS after failing what amounts to the ultimate test of truly thinking of the greater good (destroy the Sith Lord Palpatine) or thinking of his own needs (he needs Palpatine in order to save his wife).

 

To pull a quote from Kreia in KOTOR2, "it is a terrible thing, to fall.. but far more terrible is to admit it."

Edited March 9, 2016 by Donovan Morningfire